Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

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Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Grande_Milano on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:10 am

Do you think Ronaldo da Lima stands with 2 greatest players as joint 3rd, or he is just legendary, but on a lesser level like Cruyff, Van Basten, Platini, Garrincha-aka ''those who were close, but did not touch Maradona and Pele"

Who Messi will be: a Maradona or Di Stefano?

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Lex on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:12 am

R9 played in an era where some of the best defenders on Earth were roaming about.....and slayed them all (more or less)

I'd say he's alongside Pele and Maradona


Last edited by Lex on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Zealous on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:12 am

This is way too subjective IMO.

There are some out there that believe guys like Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano and Garrincha were better than Pele and Maradona anyway.


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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by billionmillion on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:16 am

Again an attempt to troll messi after his bad day

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Grande_Milano on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:21 am

Imo, nobody has done the same impact as these both did:

Beckenbauer? Defender, sadly
Cruyff? Didnt win big (CL and WC)
Di Stefano? No international stage+era of Madrid dominance
Garrincha? Good case, 1962 was his win, not Pele's, but Pele left a bigger legacy
Van Basten? Injuries+only Euro
Platini? Again, Euro, but not WC
Muller? Cant really say he did alone (Maradona) or stood out in his team (Pele)




And here we come to Ronaldo, despite all injuries, the best in every club he played, a leader in 98 and 2002 (similar to Maradona-one lost and one won final), cleaned up everything on club level, pesonal awards and stats-check



Imo, as I watched him and not the guys above, I am biased, but gonna ahead and say it: he is better than all listed. The question is did he touch "The Gods", and there are 2 of them...



@billion, no troll, Messi is fast becoming 2nd best player I ve seen after R9 (not there, but can already pretty much measure and win vs heavyweights like Baggio, ADP, Figo, Nedved, Henry, Raul, etc). So, he is a clear case for beating/non-beating all time greates, he is already best player in last 5 years and in 5 upcoming, so he has zero competition for now on individual level


Last edited by Grande_Milano on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Rebaño Sagrado on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:22 am

i don't think he's trolling

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Zealous on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:25 am

Again everything you said there is subjective.

Like I said there are some who think those guys are already on that level.

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Grande_Milano on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:26 am

@Zealous wrote:Again everything you said there is subjective.

Like I said there are some who think those guys are already on that level.

So you are in for debate? Where do you put Ronaldo? Better than lets say Muller or not.

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Magricos on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:26 am

Since when did R9 clean up everything at club level ?

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Grande_Milano on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:29 am

@Magricos wrote: Since when did R9 clean up everything at club level ?

My bad, he didnt win CL, but Maradona too.

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Zealous on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:29 am

Different people will like and rate different players differently.

I'd debate this with you but I'm a bit tired TBH. Maybe another time Razz

As for where I would put Ronaldo, he'd be number 1 if it was based on being Rich, Handsome and Talented :coffee:banana

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Magricos on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:32 am

He never won Serie A either.

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Grande_Milano on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:33 am

@Zealous wrote:Different people will like and rate different players differently.

I'd debate this with you but I'm a bit tired TBH. Maybe another time Razz

As for where I would put Ronaldo, he'd be number 1 if it was based on being Rich, Handsome and Talented :coffee:banana

I hope you are speaking about the real ronaldo :king:

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Gil on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:33 am

In terms of talent I'd say he's ahead of both but then again I haven't seen enough of Diego and Pele in their prime.
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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Sushi Master on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:33 am

Surpass, don't think so. That would place him in a singular GOAT category, which does not exist, IMO. There is no singular best player of all times.

He's definitely at that level. And no, Messi won't be remembered in the same level if he doesn't excell with Argentina, sadly.
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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by jibers on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:47 am

@Grande_Milano wrote:Imo, nobody has done the same impact as these both did:

Beckenbauer? Defender, sadly The best defender and a top 5 player of all time, he was the most creative player in a WC winning NT. He is better than R9. Was the Backbone of one of the greatest club sides of all time

Cruyff? Didnt win big (CL and WC) lol. No CL? He won 3 European cups (CL equivalent) and was one of the main proponents of a footballing style that revolutionised modern football. Without him, Michels would never have developed total football. Again, the best player in arguably THE greatest club side of all time and one of the most influential men in terms of tactics today.

Di Stefano? No international stage+era of Madrid dominance Influenced the entire history of historically, the most prestigious club in world football, He is the best footballer of his generation and is again, part of the most successful club teams of all time. The 5 Cl in a row Madrid. He was the first total footballer. I have seen a few of his matches and he could do everything, attack defend and control. He was playing total football before it even was proposed. Ronaldo is not in his league. No Wc in the 40s and he declared himself for spain like in the late 50s. So again, out of his hands really.
Garrincha? Good case, 1962 was his win, not Pele's, but Pele left a bigger legacy. The media might keep logging Pele down our throats, but trust me on this, pele is not seen as the greatest Brazilian by Brazilians themselves, Godincha is. He is the greatest Brazilaian player Pele living a bigger legacy is down to the way that there was a media explosion around his time. Media hype doesnt make you the best does it? Xavi is the ebst Cm but it took Spain winning the Euros for him to be begrudgingly accepted, now the media re writing eulogies about him..
Van Basten? Injuries+only Euro lol, great player but no, saw most of his career. Could have ben like R9 but injuries curtailed him...SADPlatini? Again, Euro, but not WC...The Xavi of the 80s, great player but just a shade below pele level. Muller? Cant really say he did alone (Maradona) or stood out in his team (Pele) The greatest pure striker of all time. No question. Call R9 what you want but Muller scored MORE and also WHEN IT MATTERED! scored in the WC final that defeated the greatest team to never win the WC, scored in the euro final, scored in 2 out of 3 Cl finals. No competition here really. His statistics are ridiculous. As a striker, he is on his own.



And here we come to Ronaldo, despite all injuries, the best in every club he played, a leader in 98 and 2002 (similar to Maradona-one lost and one won final), cleaned up everything on club level, pesonal awards and stats-check



Imo, as I watched him and not the guys above, I am biased, but gonna ahead and say it: he is better than all listed. The question is did he touch "The Gods", and there are 2 of them...The amount of hype R9 gets is mystifying tbh. Sure he was a great dribbler and scored goals but how many of them mattered? He is not on any of those guys level apart from van Basen. The rest of them are just better and have accomplished more and were the fulcrums of their teams. I have no doubt that IF he wasn't injured he would have been on that level but the FACT is, with his talent he achieved very little. Never won a Cl even though he was always in big teams after moving from PSV. You judge players on abilities, application and trophies. R9 won individual awaards, but at his best he won nothing of significance and he was always surrounded by stars. He was just never the same. He applied his talent but what did his teams win? Don't let bias or anger cloud your judgement, be rational, he won the WC in 2002 against all odds. Great for him but on club level, which for me is far more important, he was hot and could, ironically a bit like Zidane. Messi has surpassed him in everyway tbh. Messi has more talent and applies it better and is already being called the greatest,hell maradonas teamamtes have said messi is better. My top 12 arein no order Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano, Zidane, Messi, Muller, Cruyff, Godincha and guiseppe mezza.

Hope you enjoyed my points Very Happy

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Grande_Milano on Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:07 am

This can continue forever, but:

NT>Club

Di Stefano: raw football, also surrounded by stars, some say he was worse than Puskas, plus no NT football doesnt make him Garrincha or Pele, period

Cruyff: yeah, looked, totally forgot about his Ajax career, he has edge here over Ronaldo, but NT accomplishments kinda lower, so I d put him Ronaldo's equal

Muller: looks equal, its just that he is considered a poacher, thus I assume his skills are lower than Ronaldo's, not achievements.




And, lastly, Messi still has a lot of way to go, if you look closely good teams that they really faced are Man U, Chelsea, Inter and RM.

And only 2 of them they beat confidently

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by jibers on Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:20 am

@Grande_Milano wrote:This can continue forever, but:

NT>Club

Di Stefano: raw football, also surrounded by stars, some say he was worse than Puskas, plus no NT football doesnt make him Garrincha or Pele, period. If you say so. NT football wasn't really big at that point as I mentioned, it was clunb football, he and ouskas where the first real superstars so say what you want, he is on their level and in fifa vting lists he is always top 5.

Cruyff: yeah, looked, totally forgot about his Ajax career, he has edge here over Ronaldo, but NT accomplishments kinda lower, so I d put him Ronaldo's equal. So three European cups and 1 WC final = 1 WC win and 1 WC final? Just No, he isn't on cruyffs level, didn't have his influence on any level.

Muller: looks equal, its just that he is considered a poacher, thus I assume his skills are lower than Ronaldo's, not achievements. So now we are going into poacher, again I said I rate people on their abilities and their application of thos abilities, they had similar NT careers. Gerd Mller just applied his talent far better than Ronaldo, that is a fact. At the end of the day, Ronaldos most important goal is just the one in the WC final, Gerd Mullers is again i list a WC final, A wuro final and 2 out of three cls. No comparison. He applied his talent much better.




And, lastly, Messi still has a lot of way to go, if you look closely good teams that they really faced are Man U, Chelsea, Inter and RM. Yet he has mad a mockery out of all thos teams. You beat what is put in front of you. Tbh I think football is weak atm, the only outstanding talent atm is Messi, that's it tbh. but Messi is applying his talent far better than R9 did and it's translating into trophies, he is integral to them. As maradona said, if Messi wins the Wc, the plemics between myself and Pele will end. That's from the man himself. R9 is on a tier below Cruyff, Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona, Godicha, Backenbauer and Puskas. I just wish he never got injured because after that injury he just was never the same tbh. That just shows you how good he could have been.

And only 2 of them they beat confidently

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Superstone Mariomintsch on Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:08 am

@jibers wrote:
@Grande_Milano wrote:Imo, nobody has done the same impact as these both did:

Beckenbauer? Defender, sadly The best defender and a top 5 player of all time, he was the most creative player in a WC winning NT. He is better than R9. Was the Backbone of one of the greatest club sides of all time

Cruyff? Didnt win big (CL and WC) lol. No CL? He won 3 European cups (CL equivalent) and was one of the main proponents of a footballing style that revolutionised modern football. Without him, Michels would never have developed total football. Again, the best player in arguably THE greatest club side of all time and one of the most influential men in terms of tactics today.

Di Stefano? No international stage+era of Madrid dominance Influenced the entire history of historically, the most prestigious club in world football, He is the best footballer of his generation and is again, part of the most successful club teams of all time. The 5 Cl in a row Madrid. He was the first total footballer. I have seen a few of his matches and he could do everything, attack defend and control. He was playing total football before it even was proposed. Ronaldo is not in his league. No Wc in the 40s and he declared himself for spain like in the late 50s. So again, out of his hands really.
Garrincha? Good case, 1962 was his win, not Pele's, but Pele left a bigger legacy. The media might keep logging Pele down our throats, but trust me on this, pele is not seen as the greatest Brazilian by Brazilians themselves, Godincha is. He is the greatest Brazilaian player Pele living a bigger legacy is down to the way that there was a media explosion around his time. Media hype doesnt make you the best does it? Xavi is the ebst Cm but it took Spain winning the Euros for him to be begrudgingly accepted, now the media re writing eulogies about him..
Van Basten? Injuries+only Euro lol, great player but no, saw most of his career. Could have ben like R9 but injuries curtailed him...SADPlatini? Again, Euro, but not WC...The Xavi of the 80s, great player but just a shade below pele level. Muller? Cant really say he did alone (Maradona) or stood out in his team (Pele) The greatest pure striker of all time. No question. Call R9 what you want but Muller scored MORE and also WHEN IT MATTERED! scored in the WC final that defeated the greatest team to never win the WC, scored in the euro final, scored in 2 out of 3 Cl finals. No competition here really. His statistics are ridiculous. As a striker, he is on his own.



And here we come to Ronaldo, despite all injuries, the best in every club he played, a leader in 98 and 2002 (similar to Maradona-one lost and one won final), cleaned up everything on club level, pesonal awards and stats-check



Imo, as I watched him and not the guys above, I am biased, but gonna ahead and say it: he is better than all listed. The question is did he touch "The Gods", and there are 2 of them...The amount of hype R9 gets is mystifying tbh. Sure he was a great dribbler and scored goals but how many of them mattered? He is not on any of those guys level apart from van Basen. The rest of them are just better and have accomplished more and were the fulcrums of their teams. I have no doubt that IF he wasn't injured he would have been on that level but the FACT is, with his talent he achieved very little. Never won a Cl even though he was always in big teams after moving from PSV. You judge players on abilities, application and trophies. R9 won individual awaards, but at his best he won nothing of significance and he was always surrounded by stars. He was just never the same. He applied his talent but what did his teams win? Don't let bias or anger cloud your judgement, be rational, he won the WC in 2002 against all odds. Great for him but on club level, which for me is far more important, he was hot and could, ironically a bit like Zidane. Messi has surpassed him in everyway tbh. Messi has more talent and applies it better and is already being called the greatest,hell maradonas teamamtes have said messi is better. My top 12 arein no order Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano, Zidane, Messi, Muller, Cruyff, Godincha and guiseppe mezza.

Hope you enjoyed my points Very Happy
Nice one. For the top 12 I will replace Muller and Meazza with Yashin and Baresi though, not underrating or hating or anything, just think that those two as you said apply their talents more magnificently Very Happy

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Raptorgunner on Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:15 am


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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by ToEy on Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:41 am

@jibers wrote:
@Grande_Milano wrote:Imo, nobody has done the same impact as these both did:

Beckenbauer? Defender, sadly The best defender and a top 5 player of all time, he was the most creative player in a WC winning NT. He is better than R9. Was the Backbone of one of the greatest club sides of all time

Cruyff? Didnt win big (CL and WC) lol. No CL? He won 3 European cups (CL equivalent) and was one of the main proponents of a footballing style that revolutionised modern football. Without him, Michels would never have developed total football. Again, the best player in arguably THE greatest club side of all time and one of the most influential men in terms of tactics today.

Di Stefano? No international stage+era of Madrid dominance Influenced the entire history of historically, the most prestigious club in world football, He is the best footballer of his generation and is again, part of the most successful club teams of all time. The 5 Cl in a row Madrid. He was the first total footballer. I have seen a few of his matches and he could do everything, attack defend and control. He was playing total football before it even was proposed. Ronaldo is not in his league. No Wc in the 40s and he declared himself for spain like in the late 50s. So again, out of his hands really.
Garrincha? Good case, 1962 was his win, not Pele's, but Pele left a bigger legacy. The media might keep logging Pele down our throats, but trust me on this, pele is not seen as the greatest Brazilian by Brazilians themselves, Godincha is. He is the greatest Brazilaian player Pele living a bigger legacy is down to the way that there was a media explosion around his time. Media hype doesnt make you the best does it? Xavi is the ebst Cm but it took Spain winning the Euros for him to be begrudgingly accepted, now the media re writing eulogies about him..
Van Basten? Injuries+only Euro lol, great player but no, saw most of his career. Could have ben like R9 but injuries curtailed him...SADPlatini? Again, Euro, but not WC...The Xavi of the 80s, great player but just a shade below pele level. Muller? Cant really say he did alone (Maradona) or stood out in his team (Pele) The greatest pure striker of all time. No question. Call R9 what you want but Muller scored MORE and also WHEN IT MATTERED! scored in the WC final that defeated the greatest team to never win the WC, scored in the euro final, scored in 2 out of 3 Cl finals. No competition here really. His statistics are ridiculous. As a striker, he is on his own.



And here we come to Ronaldo, despite all injuries, the best in every club he played, a leader in 98 and 2002 (similar to Maradona-one lost and one won final), cleaned up everything on club level, pesonal awards and stats-check



Imo, as I watched him and not the guys above, I am biased, but gonna ahead and say it: he is better than all listed. The question is did he touch "The Gods", and there are 2 of them...The amount of hype R9 gets is mystifying tbh. Sure he was a great dribbler and scored goals but how many of them mattered? He is not on any of those guys level apart from van Basen. The rest of them are just better and have accomplished more and were the fulcrums of their teams. I have no doubt that IF he wasn't injured he would have been on that level but the FACT is, with his talent he achieved very little. Never won a Cl even though he was always in big teams after moving from PSV. You judge players on abilities, application and trophies. R9 won individual awaards, but at his best he won nothing of significance and he was always surrounded by stars. He was just never the same. He applied his talent but what did his teams win? Don't let bias or anger cloud your judgement, be rational, he won the WC in 2002 against all odds. Great for him but on club level, which for me is far more important, he was hot and could, ironically a bit like Zidane. Messi has surpassed him in everyway tbh. Messi has more talent and applies it better and is already being called the greatest,hell maradonas teamamtes have said messi is better. My top 12 arein no order Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano, Zidane, Messi, Muller, Cruyff, Godincha and guiseppe mezza.

Hope you enjoyed my points Very Happy

Good post, although I felt that Zidane is on the same level as R9...with better consistency but lesser brillance. Did not watch much of mezza as compared to the rest based on clips but I can agree with the rest. To me Beckenbauer, Maradona, Cryuff and Garrincha is better than Pele, who was surely better than R9.

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by JuvenelCuore on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:05 am

Beckenbauer was not greater than Maldini. :coffee:

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by Vapotrini on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:23 am

Silly to even ask this imo. The ignorance level is so high on these very forums that people still to this day argue maradona vs messi without ever having seen maradona kick a single ball.

As to your question, totally different players but between diego and him, for me it's not even close. No one compares to diego imo. Not even the so-called current best ever.

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by alexjanosik on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:07 am

No he does not belong on that level.Not even close.
Just didnt achieve enough.
And R9 is no way,shape or form Cruyff's equal.
Cruyff was clearly superior.

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Re: Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Post by EarlyPrototype on Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:36 am

R9 for me is at least on the same level as Maradona and Pele.
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