We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

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We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:13 pm

Another day, another predictable game. Another 2 points dropped against relegation fodder.

4-4-2 doesn't work these days unless your are Ferguson and have 2 explosive wingers.

There is a massive gap between midfield and attack, and there are no runners from midfield to help the strikers.

Midfield tends to be overrun in second half of games...and our fullbacks are more of an offensive threat than our wingers.

Time to get Spearing and Maxi into the team. Their treatment this season has been almost as bad as Houllier's treatment of Fowler.

Players need to be picked on merit, and not their date of purchase.

The fact that we changed our flowing formation of last season to 4-4-2 when our personnel isn't suited to it, is baffling.


Sorry, Arsenal have already caught up to us, and I can see us being involved in mid-table mediocrity if we don't switch from this 4-4-2 with players who pass and stay, as opposed to move.

3 big games coming up....We *bleep* up big time in the past 3 weeks.

Last year, I was dreading us going away, now I hate us playing at home.

Is Kenny the right man to take us forward and is he brave enough to throw his stubbornness away and pick players in the right formation and on merit ?? Geniune concern here.


The way Jay and Maxi are being treated makes me weep :facepalm:

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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by Art Morte on Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:59 pm

Sepi wrote:
4-4-2 doesn't work these days unless your are Ferguson and have 2 explosive wingers.

I agree, 4-4-2 at this level needs wingers who can bring the ball up fast, run at the full-backs, challenge them and deliver quick solutions to attacking moves. Downing does this from time to time, but has been quiet recently. At the moment it's closer to having 4 CMs on the pitch than 2 CMs and 2 wingers.


Sepi wrote:Time to get Spearing and Maxi into the team. Their treatment this season has been almost as bad as Houllier's treatment of Fowler.

Players need to be picked on merit, and not their date of purchase.

Maxi does deserve a league start, but that said, I don't think he proves to be the reliable solution to our offensive difficulties. I'd like to see more of Spearing, too, but CM isn't the problem, so I think it's a minor matter who plays there.


Sepi wrote:Is Kenny the right man to take us forward and is he brave enough to throw his stubbornness away and pick players in the right formation and on merit ?? Geniune concern here.

Yes, I believe Kenny is the right man. Generally speaking we have looked strong, I'd say. We're looking to keep the ball, our midfield and defence have been strong both ways. It's just goal-scoring that's letting us down. We desperately need a bit more energy and pace to our attacks. Today's game was a prime example of how our slow attacks can be nullified by an organized defence. And if Swansea can keep a clean sheet at Anfield you know something's wrong.



Ps. Buying Henderson for £16-20m to play him in Right Wing, good or bad decision?
I know he's young and he has definately been OK in that wing position, but results like today's can cost us a top-4 spot and we would've needed better than OK today, someone who'd thrive in that wing position [insert comparison to United again].
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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by Nishankly on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:25 pm

Lets win the CC, Get the spot for Europe and try again next season Very Happy


/troolll
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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by RedOranje on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:44 am


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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by Arquitescu on Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:54 am

Sepi its nowhere near as bad as you think.

The point is Kenny does not settle just for what seems to be the best possible option as the perfectionist and idealist in him wants to expand and go beyond the standard options and what available to use.

Kenny has made it clear that he will do his best to achieve the realistic targets this year but while also taking his time to re-develop his winning formula and more importantly, cement a distinct philosophy in for the future.

And this is much more important then winning games.

Kenny has begun with end in mind.

Fact is, the players are also to blame as Adam does not understand the meaning of building up play while Downing is lacking confidence to actually cut in to take on players as he resorts to simply crossing in from the flank.

Carroll is still finding his form while Henderson is being readied for the central position, while still exploiting his solid role for the right wing.

The latter is not as effective in the right but Adam and Lucas already have that place.

Maxi? We already have one and his name is Henderson as we only need 1 players who keep things simple with passing and movement.

And you're starting to overrate Maxi.

Plus, Henry and Kenny don't want short term fixes and play players past their date.

Spearing? What he has in his tenacity and defence he lacks in vision and creativity.

What caught my eye is the doubt if Kenny is the right man to take us forward..... disappointing as I would have thought you would know more about what an actual world class manager he is strategically.

I can go on and on about his games managed for us in his first term.

There is a reason why every one wanted Kenny on board and thats not just for his playing career or because we just love the guy.

Pool fans are much smarter then that being the close-knitted bunch they are.

I can say with 100% conviction that he is the right man. Red will verify this for me.

One more thing, the only thing we are truly missing is simply being ruthless.

breath fellas, patience is key as I vehemently believe everything is under control and that Kenny and his crew know what they are doing.

I don't believe. I know it

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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by Art Morte on Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:21 pm

@ Arquitecto

You've got a lot of sense in you, but this is Premier League football we're talking about. That's a place where you haven't got much time to get the train rolling. When you add to that our aim - also stated by John Henry - of a top-4 finish this season, you'll come face to face with the fact that we need more results right now and less patience and building for the future.

Obviously this Liverpool team is still developing, but it's an on-going project which one sub-objective (top-4 finish this season) we are currently on course to miss.
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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by edulfc on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:30 pm

I know I'm not gonn be popular with this but I've got to air my views.
Seriously do you guys think Carroll is a striker that take can us to where we are going. Every top club with ambitions have got top strikers. chelsea, man c, man u, arsenal. Man city has up to 4 strikers all world class!!!

You might call Carroll a potential buy, but the dude is nowhere near what we need, he is slow, slows our attacks, lacks positioning,, etc. I mean you cant sell a Torres and buy Carroll as his replacement. he is way below.
Suarez our really good striker is not really cut out for the top nine role.

IMO, our loss of goal-scoring form is because we don't have a good 9. Torres when he was here would bury half those chances. If we don't get a top striker asap, i don't see us ending anywhere above tottenham, not to talk of getting a cl place.

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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:34 pm

^ Stop talking crap. We've been shite with 4-4-2 even without Carroll. You have a go at Carroll even in games he doesn't play..did he steal your bird or sth ?

The problem is Kenny changed the midfield shape. We were a goal machine last year. Here illustrates the problem.

Much has said about our yesterday's performance and it's been frustrating. Some of the tactics and selections have raised a few eye brows, but the biggest disappointment for me has been the change of attacking style compared to the high standard games we played in the end of last season..namely Man City at Anfield and Fulham at Craven Cottage.

When Carroll was knocking those crosses down to the box yesterday when we had absolutely no one there and no link between midfield and attack, I was reminded of those 2 spectacular performances which in my opinion are the best football we've played since the end of 08-09 season.

We were scoring for fun a few months ago, yet we tend to struggle to score these days...Why is that? When watching extended highlights of those games, I decided to take snap shots as it truly and very effectively shows the difference between Liverpool of yesterday and Liverpool of April-May of 2011.


This is 30 seconds in at Craven Cottage with Suarez breaking through. Notice the amount of runners we are getting into the box and giving Suarez options of whether to pass/shoot. Kuyt is almost shoulder to shoulder with their CB, Raul is lurking just behind the box as well (and gets in the box in the end) and Maxi which seem to far behind in this snapshot, is actually the player scoring from that move 5-6 seconds after that since he continues his run find a space in the box and finishes well. Lack of runners from midfield in behind the strikers was so frustrating to watch yesterday it was unbelievable.

Here is another example. For the second goal in the same game:

This is just after Johnson has delivered his cross into the box. You can see Meireles is in the box already, and Suarez is joining as well...so even if the Fulham defender manages to intercept the cross (that he couldn't in real life) there is a lo of chance that the ball will fall to one of our players in tons of space available, because we've attacked the space around their box perfectly.


Now, 2 quick snapshots for the move that resulted in our 3rd goal.


Perfect pass and move play. Lucas, Maxi, Spearing and Suarez are quite narrow there and you'll see Lucas moving into the space between Fulham midfielders with Spearing coming into the space Lucas is at in this picture, while the balls gets distributed to the right. Meireles , Suarez and Maxi all attack the box when Shwarzer doesn't expect Kuyt to just shoot when this snapshot happens:

It doesn't show Maxi and Suarez but they are in the box, occupying defenders and waiting for a possible pass/rebound. Spearing is well positioned in the middle so in case the ball is intercepted and they counter, we'll have enough cover.


2 More examples in build up of Dirk's goal vs City:

This is absolutely fantastic. Suarez with the ball and 3 PLAYERS IN FRONT OF HIM. Each running toward one direction to make themselves available for a pass, and confuse City defenders. The ball ends up with Raul in this case. City defenders can't risk and and try to block Suarez since those 3 LFC players ahead of Luis could massively take advantage if the killer pass made at the right time. I can't recall Luis attacking opposition with the ball this season and having 3 attackers (from his own team) ahead of him as passing options.

and finally the goal.

Once again we've got plenty of bodies into the box. It shows Luis and Andy, but Fabio is outta the frame, Spearing in tons of space just behind the box...and this time Lucas protecting the midfield in case they made an interception and countered (just like Jay was doing it in build up move to Kuyt's goal at Fulham)




All of those snapshots and build ups had a few things in common:
1) Dynamism of players which gives options to the person in possession.
2) All players wanted the ball at SPACE or FEET....at the moment 90% of our passes are to feet since we play "Pass and stay" as opposed to "Pass and move"
3) Crowding the box. Eying those incomplete blocks or interceptions by opposition defenders, a lot of presence and causing havoc by movement in the box.

Unfortunately, at the moment...we don't hav any of the 3...and 3 players who were at heart and soul of all those brilliant plays aren't playing for us anymore. The Portuegese Lampard is in London....Jay and Maxi play only once a month in CC, and have played 35 minutes in the league combined.

I hope KK gets the squad to watch those 2 games over and over again, and goes through the importance of movement and attacking the box. Hell, I hope Kenny himself watches it first !

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Re: We'll finish mid-table if we don't change tactics sharpish

Post by Art Morte on Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:39 pm

@edulfc wrote:I know I'm not gonn be popular with this but I've got to air my views.
Seriously do you guys think Carroll is a striker that take can us to where we are going. Every top club with ambitions have got top strikers. chelsea, man c, man u, arsenal. Man city has up to 4 strikers all world class!!!

You might call Carroll a potential buy, but the dude is nowhere near what we need, he is slow, slows our attacks, lacks positioning,, etc. I mean you cant sell a Torres and buy Carroll as his replacement. he is way below.
Suarez our really good striker is not really cut out for the top nine role.

IMO, our loss of goal-scoring form is because we don't have a good 9. Torres when he was here would bury half those chances. If we don't get a top striker asap, i don't see us ending anywhere above tottenham, not to talk of getting a cl place.


We should be able to criticize our players without getting unpopular.

And well, I agree with you to an extent, Carroll, in my opinion, is not as good a striker as you probably might expect from a top-4-contender team. He has got time on his side, but too often his first touch and technique is letting him down.

It's not all his fault, though. Our team needs to create more chances for him in the box. But Carroll would also do well to watch some footage of Mario Gomez, that man is a bit like Andy, a big centre forward who is not that dangerous with the ball, but smells goal-scoring chances like a super-powered wonder dog and takes them, too.
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