Wigan vs Liverpool

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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by poolsupporter on Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:48 pm

Sepi wrote:Thing is, We all know Adam's limitations, but at least he contributes offensively, and compensates for some of his weaknesses. He's scored/Assisted 9 goals this season. That's almost half of our goals. He can be very frustrating at times and I am furious at him not letting Suarez take the peno, but he tries and contributes.

Downing is the one that infuriates me. I was all for his signing in summer, and he had a great start. He was amazing away at Arsenal and home to Bolton and even Stoke away. Now, for an extended time, he hides, doesn't take responsibility, and doesn't do any basics of a wide player. He seem to have no bottle whatsoever and very scared. I lost count of number of times, Johnson was looking for overlap ready for Downing pass and he instead passed it safely back to midfield. He is my biggest concern of all tbh. He is not being productive unlike Adam.

I have close to zero concerns about Henderson. It's natural for him not to have full confidence in his first season in a big team, but he is 21, has a superb footballing brain, and plays football the right way. Henderson will grow better and better as he matures...

Let's be honest, we are missing our 2 best CMs. ANY Team in this world will struggle if that was the case.

On Adam - While he has contributed, let's not forget some of the luck he has had as far as deflections go. We bought this guy for his passing ability and many claimed his set piece delivery was brilliant. I've seen him play well from time to time, but on the whole he cannot command a two-man midfield the way Gerrard can. I know not having Lucas doesn't help either.

On Downing - I agree he always seems to take the easy route for most of his game. However, if our strikers and attacking players converted the chances he keeps creating we'd not be having this conversation. To put it into perspective :

Chances Created:

Downing - Open Play 29|Set Play 8|Total + Assists 37|
Adam - Open Play 16 | Set Play 14|Total + Assists 34|
Suarez - Open Play 33 | Set Play 1|Total + Assists 35|

Downing has created about as much from open play as Suarez has. If the chances he created would have been finished, he'd be among the top players for us this season. So I agree he isn't the best winger out there, but by no means is he a terrible player either. Unfortunately I think a lot of supporters expected to see some flash from him, but he keeps it simple. Unfortunately that simplicity often translates to taking the easy route a lot. He does need to step up his effort and ability to beat his defender from time to time. Downing has barely featured on the right for us, so I don't expect him and Johnson to magically gel together.

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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by Nishankly on Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:07 pm

@poolsupporter wrote:

Chances Created:

Downing - Open Play 29|Set Play 8|Total + Assists 37|
Adam - Open Play 16 | Set Play 14|Total + Assists 34|
Suarez - Open Play 33 | Set Play 1|Total + Assists 35|

Downing has created about as much from open play as Suarez has. If the chances he created would have been finished, he'd be among the top players for us this season. So I agree he isn't the best winger out there, but by no means is he a terrible player either. Unfortunately I think a lot of supporters expected to see some flash from him, but he keeps it simple. Unfortunately that simplicity often translates to taking the easy route a lot. He does need to step up his effort and ability to beat his defender from time to time. Downing has barely featured on the right for us, so I don't expect him and Johnson to magically gel together.

I have been saying this since a long time in chat and in GL flop threads. Downing has been very good this season.
And we are not counting the four times he has hit the post as well. Carroll and Suarez have been balls in attack .. Downing should easily be on 13-14 assists. I have no problem with Downing, Other than the fact that he becomes invisible as the game moves on, Which most wingers do and maxi was fantastic at this last year.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by iftikhar on Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:52 pm

I don't think our problem is due to any single player our his skill-set. It's the collective mind-set that is the problem.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by poolsupporter on Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:55 pm

Nishank wrote:
@poolsupporter wrote:

Chances Created:

Downing - Open Play 29|Set Play 8|Total + Assists 37|
Adam - Open Play 16 | Set Play 14|Total + Assists 34|
Suarez - Open Play 33 | Set Play 1|Total + Assists 35|

Downing has created about as much from open play as Suarez has. If the chances he created would have been finished, he'd be among the top players for us this season. So I agree he isn't the best winger out there, but by no means is he a terrible player either. Unfortunately I think a lot of supporters expected to see some flash from him, but he keeps it simple. Unfortunately that simplicity often translates to taking the easy route a lot. He does need to step up his effort and ability to beat his defender from time to time. Downing has barely featured on the right for us, so I don't expect him and Johnson to magically gel together.

I have been saying this since a long time in chat and in GL flop threads. Downing has been very good this season.
And we are not counting the four times he has hit the post as well. Carroll and Suarez have been balls in attack .. Downing should easily be on 13-14 assists. I have no problem with Downing, Other than the fact that he becomes invisible as the game moves on, Which most wingers do and maxi was fantastic at this last year.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he should have 13-14 assists, but the fact that he doesn't even have one in comparison to the number of chances he has created points to a problem in our attack. He does tend to take the easy route as opposed to trying to beat defenders all the time. However, can one blame him if he just doesn't have the pace. I think he needs some confidence desperately. A goal against Blackburn or even an assist could do wonders.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by RedOranje on Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:33 pm

I said this to Sepi last night, and at the moment I'm busy keeping an eye on the General Section chat so I won't go into too much detail, but I don't think the Downing signing was ever a good idea... and not because I don't rate Downing all that highly (I don't, though). I simply don't think we should ever have been looking for a true out-and-out winger for the starting XI in the first place.

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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by poolsupporter on Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:35 pm

@RedOranje wrote:I said this to Sepi last night, and at the moment I'm busy keeping an eye on the General Section chat so I won't go into too much detail, but I don't think the Downing signing was ever a good idea... and not because I don't rate Downing all that highly (I don't, though). I simply don't think we should ever have been looking for a true out-and-out winger for the starting XI in the first place.

You're right in that we should have looked for someone with more skill on the ball. When he plays on the left though, him and Enrique give us some good width, something we were crying for as the window opened.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by RedOranje on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:05 pm

Honestly, while I do think a winger is a must to have in the squad, i do not believe our best XI would include one, given the way we seem to want to play. I believe we should really have been looking for a wide forward.

Mata or Cazorla, IMO, would have been excellent. Both CAN play wide and beat their man, get to the byline, and put in a good cross, but they also have the ability and intelligence to cut inside as Suarez and Gerrard (assuming he's deployed in an attacking role) drift as they like to do. Both also have the vision and ability to play short passes in link-up play, which would dove-tail nicely with Suarez and Bellamy and Maxi. Further, I think they would actually benefit Carroll, as it would give Enrique more time and space to pick out crosses and they would get into the box more in support of Andy. Several times we've had the chance to get in a cross to Carroll but Enrique and Downing got in each others' way out left and it killed the move.


I simply believe we should have spent big on a wide forward, and bought a cheaper option for our out-and-out winger, who could be used as an option off the bench.

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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by poolsupporter on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:41 am

@RedOranje wrote:Honestly, while I do think a winger is a must to have in the squad, i do not believe our best XI would include one, given the way we seem to want to play. I believe we should really have been looking for a wide forward.

Mata or Cazorla, IMO, would have been excellent. Both CAN play wide and beat their man, get to the byline, and put in a good cross, but they also have the ability and intelligence to cut inside as Suarez and Gerrard (assuming he's deployed in an attacking role) drift as they like to do. Both also have the vision and ability to play short passes in link-up play, which would dove-tail nicely with Suarez and Bellamy and Maxi. Further, I think they would actually benefit Carroll, as it would give Enrique more time and space to pick out crosses and they would get into the box more in support of Andy. Several times we've had the chance to get in a cross to Carroll but Enrique and Downing got in each others' way out left and it killed the move.


I simply believe we should have spent big on a wide forward, and bought a cheaper option for our out-and-out winger, who could be used as an option off the bench.

I definitely understand your rationale but wasn't one of the reasons we didn't focus on that type of player because of Babel? I know we used Babel as an example for not getting Elia as well as a couple of other players.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by iftikhar on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:02 am

I wasn't the biggest fan of Downing. Not because for his type but simply because I ached for more star value.

Having said that, I think Downing is what we needed. Two transfer windows (since NESV take-over) we discussed how badly we need an OUT-an-OUT winger and we do need one.

Instead of Kuyt, Babel or Maxi, he can exploit the space on the wings and send in crosses into the box rather than cramming it. We depended too much on WB for width and it was our limitation.

Downing is what we need to suppliment Carroll & Suarez. If he isn't living upto the expectations (certainly not by my expectations), it's not for his style.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by poolsupporter on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:37 am

@iftikhar wrote:I wasn't the biggest fan of Downing. Not because for his type but simply because I ached for more star value.

Having said that, I think Downing is what we needed. Two transfer windows (since NESV take-over) we discussed how badly we need an OUT-an-OUT winger and we do need one.

Instead of Kuyt, Babel or Maxi, he can exploit the space on the wings and send in crosses into the box rather than cramming it. We depended too much on WB for width and it was our limitation.

Downing is what we need to suppliment Carroll & Suarez. If he isn't living upto the expectations (certainly not by my expectations), it's not for his style.

Exactly. We had been screaming for width in the squad as everyone we played out wide always cut inside. Downing, when played on the left is a good improvement to what we've had for two seasons.

My question is this; How do you guys compare Downing to Riera? I've always been a fan of Riera's style.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by RedOranje on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:49 am

@poolsupporter wrote:
@RedOranje wrote:Honestly, while I do think a winger is a must to have in the squad, i do not believe our best XI would include one, given the way we seem to want to play. I believe we should really have been looking for a wide forward.

Mata or Cazorla, IMO, would have been excellent. Both CAN play wide and beat their man, get to the byline, and put in a good cross, but they also have the ability and intelligence to cut inside as Suarez and Gerrard (assuming he's deployed in an attacking role) drift as they like to do. Both also have the vision and ability to play short passes in link-up play, which would dove-tail nicely with Suarez and Bellamy and Maxi. Further, I think they would actually benefit Carroll, as it would give Enrique more time and space to pick out crosses and they would get into the box more in support of Andy. Several times we've had the chance to get in a cross to Carroll but Enrique and Downing got in each others' way out left and it killed the move.


I simply believe we should have spent big on a wide forward, and bought a cheaper option for our out-and-out winger, who could be used as an option off the bench.

I definitely understand your rationale but wasn't one of the reasons we didn't focus on that type of player because of Babel? I know we used Babel as an example for not getting Elia as well as a couple of other players.
I'm not certain I understand your reference to Babel... He was already gone by summer so he wasn't taking up a spot in the squad.

If you are referring to his (poor) time here then that's a bit of a misleading argument. I personally did not want Elia because he plays a great deal like Babel... quick, head-down running with little intelligence and poor/inconsistent end product. Also, Babel thought he was a CF/ST who was being played as a winger/attacking mid. Elia is a pure winger. At Hoffenheim Babel has been used more as a wide forward and has, as far as I understand it, done fairly well.


@iftikhar wrote:I wasn't the biggest fan of Downing. Not because for his type but simply because I ached for more star value.

Having said that, I think Downing is what we needed. Two transfer windows (since NESV take-over) we discussed how badly we need an OUT-an-OUT winger and we do need one.

Instead of Kuyt, Babel or Maxi, he can exploit the space on the wings and send in crosses into the box rather than cramming it. We depended too much on WB for width and it was our limitation.

Downing is what we need to suppliment Carroll & Suarez. If he isn't living upto the expectations (certainly not by my expectations), it's not for his style.
Downing HASN'T exploited space on the wings though... when he gets the ball he holds up and either waits for Enrique/Johnson to go past (thus relying on our fullbacks for width), passes it backward/inside, or runs inside. His crossing has generally been poor and by sticking out wide Downing slows down attacks and gets in Enrique's way more often than he opens up space. Also, I specifically stated in my post that I think we should have been after a player that COULD go outside and beat his man on the wing, but also one that could more effectively link up in and around the box.

Also, I stated that we did need a pure winger... but as a squad player rather than a starter. With Downing/ we tend to favour a flat 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 and that just doesn't play to any other players' strengths. With a wide forward or at the very least a bit more versatile wide player, we would have a much more fluid formation that would tend toward a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3... see the side when Maxi and Henderson/Bellamy are in.

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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by RedOranje on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:51 am

@poolsupporter wrote:
Exactly. We had been screaming for width in the squad as everyone we played out wide always cut inside. Downing, when played on the left is a good improvement to what we've had for two seasons.

My question is this; How do you guys compare Downing to Riera? I've always been a fan of Riera's style.
"WE," in this case, does not include ME.

Like I said, I did want a pure winger, just a cheaper one as a squad player. And I didn't want a player who would ALWAYS cut inside, but one that had that option in his locker (which Downing really doesn't seem to, despite his Sunderland shot).
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by Red Alert on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:46 am

Nishank wrote:
ynwa wrote:

Adam and Hendo have done nothing wrong in the centre. They're still adapting to their defensive duties. There's nothing wrong with Spearing. I have no idea what you're going on about, especially hoping he gets injured... :facepalm:


Dude.
I hoping a Liverpool player getting injured?
You actually think im a united fan?

Read that wrong, my mistake.
Saw Spearing and damage in the same sentence, and we all know how fragile that Spearing is. Sad

When did I ever call you a Manc? Shocked
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by poolsupporter on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:28 am

@Red - None of what I was saying was meant to come across as a 'You said this' type thing. I just recall when people on the forums were discussing winger options there was not a lot of love for left or right forwards.

By 'We' I meant the supporters in general had been complaining about width.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by RedOranje on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:36 am

@poolsupporter wrote:@Red - None of what I was saying was meant to come across as a 'You said this' type thing. I just recall when people on the forums were discussing winger options there was not a lot of love for left or right forwards.

By 'We' I meant the supporters in general had been complaining about width.
I know. I was making it clear for those reading this discussion at a later time.
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Re: Wigan vs Liverpool

Post by Fahim89 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:35 am

A lot of personal stuff going between the Big Guns it seems . . . spicy discussions

:coffee:
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