343 is a piece of crap

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343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:33 am

As seen vs. Betis, 343 is an inferior system to 433. We played wit 343 for the first 60 minutes of the game. We played like shit, creating 3-4 chances and scoring two, but allowing 5-6 chances to Betis and letting them equalize. Our team was full of holes on the counter and unable to stop Betis.

After they tied, we switched to 433 and we started playing very, very well again. I know there was also a switch in motivation and attitude, but nobody can't deny that 433 gave us more defensive solidity, while we improved our attack. Alves was suddenly a danger coming from deep in the right wing, we had a proper order on the pitch, etc.

343 only works when Barça controls the game 100%. When you lose control slightly it's much worse than 433. I thought that it was plain enough vs. Milan, Valencia, Espanyol, etc. but it seems Pep won't stop using the bleeping system, probably in order to fit Cesc in.

Don't fix what's not broken! 433 back!

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by Hamdyman on Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:10 am

Yes but its really not so great to judge this tac by one flawed match, it worked just fine in many others.. i think its best to keep rotating until pep knows PERFECTLY when to use it and when to not,

putting in mind it does help at times of shortages/ injuries.. so if the players are kind of used to it by playing in the smaller easier matches, they wont be shell shocked going for it in a bigger match.

Overall thought i agree that 4-3-3 is certainly > 3-4-3 with this current squad.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:48 am

cat, as dani has said before 3-4-3 is a limited system. It works only against specific kinds of opponents - usually those who play two strikers and have less width.

Why do you all think we are playing the 3-4-3? Is it just to accommodate Fabregas? Or are there other reasons such as Pep's obsession with the original dream team?

Personally I just want to see the 4-3-3 and the team of 2010-11 back. Maybe Alexis could be given Villa's role for now but Fabregas in spite of his goal threat would only be an impact substitute in my team.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:11 am

Meh, this is what happens when you insist on players we dont need like Cesc. You have to change line ups so he can play.

I dont mind it as much as Free and think as proven vs Madrid, it can work very well against anyone but I am surprised (a little dissapointed) but how often it is used.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:12 am

@Hamdyman wrote:Yes but its really not so great to judge this tac by one flawed match, it worked just fine in many others.. i think its best to keep rotating until pep knows PERFECTLY when to use it and when to not,

putting in mind it does help at times of shortages/ injuries.. so if the players are kind of used to it by playing in the smaller easier matches, they wont be shell shocked going for it in a bigger match.

Overall thought i agree that 4-3-3 is certainly > 3-4-3 with this current squad.

343 has worked very well vs. the likes of Osasuna, Vila-real at home and the nobodies like Al Saad and Santos in neutral stadium. In most other matches has been very questionable (Valencia, Milan, Espanyol, Betis). Vs. Madrid at Bernabeu we didn't play a 343, but more of a 361 in attack that converted into a 451 in defence.


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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:13 am

@The Franchise wrote:Meh, this is what happens when you insist on players we dont need like Cesc. You have to change line ups so he can play.

I dont mind it as much as Free and think as proven vs Madrid, it can work very well against anyone but I am surprised (a little dissapointed) but how often it is used.

We didn't play a 343 vs. Madrid. Busquets was going deep as a CB as soon as we lost the ball and never pushed up the field to sweep as he usually does.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by windkick on Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:13 pm

4-3-3 worked perfect for us. No need to change it

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by jibers on Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:37 pm

I love the way you guys are trying to pigeon hole your team into a particular foramtion. Barcelona don't have a strict formation at all. This isn't football manager. 4-3-3? Please, get Real(Moudrid). This team for me is beyond formations, they play to keep the ball and spcae is occupied in order to maximise ball possession. Xavi has gone beyond a central MF. His movement is nothing like any other CMs in history. The main problem I find with Barcelona is Cesc. The guy is the reason why that formation sucks, because he can't play CM, playing him essentially strips you of one extra man in the middle because he is to comfortable up front. Just my two cents.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:39 pm

Guardiola is trying to re-create the early 90s team, but it's not working. There's ample evidence that he should only use it under very specific circumstances. Even without Keita it still caused us to lose our clean sheets at home.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by CBarca on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:00 pm

I prefer 4-3-3

That being said I hate the saying "if it aint broke don't fix it".

There is always, always, always room for improvement, dynamism, and innovation. I applaud Pep for trying new things, but it just doesn't compare to the 4-3-3.

Back to basics, Pep...and then innovate some more. Such is the job you have. But we love you for it Very Happy

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by Khaled on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:18 pm

@free_cat wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Meh, this is what happens when you insist on players we dont need like Cesc. You have to change line ups so he can play.

I dont mind it as much as Free and think as proven vs Madrid, it can work very well against anyone but I am surprised (a little dissapointed) but how often it is used.

We didn't play a 343 vs. Madrid. Busquets was going deep as a CB as soon as we lost the ball and never pushed up the field to sweep as he usually does.

Busquets was doing the same yesterday [2nd half].

-----------------------

IMO, one of the reason that Guardiola is playing this system (3-4-3), New Challenge for the team. We already won everything using 4-3-3, winning everything with the 3-4-3, is harder ==> new challenge [ which should motivate the players].

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:22 pm

@free_cat wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Meh, this is what happens when you insist on players we dont need like Cesc. You have to change line ups so he can play.

I dont mind it as much as Free and think as proven vs Madrid, it can work very well against anyone but I am surprised (a little dissapointed) but how often it is used.

We didn't play a 343 vs. Madrid. Busquets was going deep as a CB as soon as we lost the ball and never pushed up the field to sweep as he usually does.

But when pressing he was going onto Ozil. He was doin two roles in one.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Lizard King on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:34 pm


I don't mind the 3-4-3, not one bit. Solely for the versatility that it provides our team. Last season, we were starved for bench depth and substitutes. While Pep was always kept guessing at which formation/players Mourinho would play, we almost always started the same 11 with the same formation.

This is where the new transfers came into play. Not only did it provide the obvious bench strength, but it paved way for moves like converting Cesc to a false 9 ( seriously..remember when we were worried that bringing Cesc in could hinder Thiago ? ) and playing Alves as a winger. We had a slight taste of Guardiola's plan with his conversion of Busquets and Mascherano to CB. And with moves like that, Guardiola has totally morphed the team.

Now we have a living, breathing, dynamic machine of a team. Which can change its form and flow according to whatever the situation requires. Recent examples include Betis and Madrid, where we were able to visibly change gears and up the ante when required. And deliver the necessary result. Those weren't games played strictly under the 3-4-3, but games that benefited from our use of the 3-4-3 .

I totally understand how Freecat says that it leaves us exposed on multiple levels, and he makes a valid point. But a system likes this always ensures that opposition coaches can't plan as well as they could, and we can always have a joker/wild card which disrupts their strategies and tactics. And I think that's what Guardiola is going for..a long term alternative. If that doesn't work..we can just revert back to the 4-3-3 and roll over em Razz

Sure we're bound to lose some games..and the 3-4-3 has its fallacies..but in the long run..I hope the 3-4-3 is here to stay.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:41 am

Khaledbarca wrote:
@free_cat wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Meh, this is what happens when you insist on players we dont need like Cesc. You have to change line ups so he can play.

I dont mind it as much as Free and think as proven vs Madrid, it can work very well against anyone but I am surprised (a little dissapointed) but how often it is used.

We didn't play a 343 vs. Madrid. Busquets was going deep as a CB as soon as we lost the ball and never pushed up the field to sweep as he usually does.

Busquets was doing the same yesterday [2nd half].

-----------------------

IMO, one of the reason that Guardiola is playing this system (3-4-3), New Challenge for the team. We already won everything using 4-3-3, winning everything with the 3-4-3, is harder ==> new challenge [ which should motivate the players].

Ok, but it doesn't work. We were terribly unmotivated during the first 60 minutes vs. Betis playing 343. Plus, the tactic proved to be an emmental cheese in defence, again. Busquets was not doing the CB/DM role in the second half, we just switched to a normal 433 after Betis tied us.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:43 am

@The Franchise wrote:
@free_cat wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Meh, this is what happens when you insist on players we dont need like Cesc. You have to change line ups so he can play.

I dont mind it as much as Free and think as proven vs Madrid, it can work very well against anyone but I am surprised (a little dissapointed) but how often it is used.

We didn't play a 343 vs. Madrid. Busquets was going deep as a CB as soon as we lost the ball and never pushed up the field to sweep as he usually does.

But when pressing he was going onto Ozil. He was doin two roles in one.



Agreed, but he never ventured forward as much as to not be able to go into the defensive line very fast so we could deploy a 4 man defense and avoid the huuuuuge gaps that a 3 man line leaves.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:47 am

@The Lizard King wrote:
Now we have a living, breathing, dynamic machine of a team. Which can change its form and flow according to whatever the situation requires. Recent examples include Betis and Madrid, where we were able to visibly change gears and up the ante when required. And deliver the necessary result. Those weren't games played strictly under the 3-4-3, but games that benefited from our use of the 3-4-3 .
.

I'm not completely ruling out the 343. We've seen some good games with it. But IMO, it should only be played at home, vs. teams that play narrow and are not very good. Never away, never vs. good teams, never vs. wide teams.

On a side note, vs. Madrid we didn't deploy a 343 at any point of the match, and vs. Betis, we played 343 only when we were playing badly.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:05 am

But free, you cant blame us being "terribly unmotivated" on the 343. The team was playing crap, dont matter what tactics your using, if your not playing well and not showing the intensity needed.

The problem I understand, against a 4231 or 433 (basically any formation with 1 striker) and you play a 3 man backline you lose numerical superiority at the back when defending. Its a risk being taken to have a greater advantage someplace else on the pitch.

Check the average position chart vs Madrid on zonalmarking.net, in the second half, when the game was won, that looks much closer to a 3 man backline than a 4. The princinple weaknesses were the same, so I dont really agree its impossible to use against good teams. Not saying I prefer it or even want it, but I dont think its quite as bad as you.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:18 am

@The Franchise wrote:But free, you cant blame us being "terribly unmotivated" on the 343. The team was playing crap, dont matter what tactics your using, if your not playing well and not showing the intensity needed.

The problem I understand, against a 4231 or 433 (basically any formation with 1 striker) and you play a 3 man backline you lose numerical superiority at the back when defending. Its a risk being taken to have a greater advantage someplace else on the pitch.

Check the average position chart vs Madrid on zonalmarking.net, in the second half, when the game was won, that looks much closer to a 3 man backline than a 4. The princinple weaknesses were the same, so I dont really agree its impossible to use against good teams. Not saying I prefer it or even want it, but I dont think its quite as bad as you.


I mentioned the motivation, because Khaled claims that playing 343 is a way to keep the team motivated, and they were very unmotivated when playing 343. I'm not saying that playing one scheme or the other effects motivation, I don't think it has much effect.


Here is the average positioning vs Madrid. It clearly is not a 343, but more of a 3151, so entirely a different and much conservative tactic than 343. Yes, there is a defense of 3 men, but every other similarity stops here.
Plus, according to Zonalmarking, it was a 4411 with Busquets pushing a bit when on possession, and I can agree more with that than with saying it was a 343.


Last edited by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:24 am

Okay, my mistake. Was confused by that.

As for the positioning.. Isnt your problem with the 343 the 3 at the back and the amount of space they give up?

The only difference in the 2nd half formation and the 343 is basically the forwards are deeper. slightly differently configured (Messi deep, Sanchez far forward ect) and one of them tucked inside.

The backline has the same number, there is only 1 holding midfielder.

The only real difference is the forward line structure.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:27 am

It is my main problem to have 3 defenders, yes, but obviously, if you are playing 6 midfielders, defense won't suffer so much and the opposition won't be able to make as many fast counteratacks that vs. a 4 man midfield.

Also, according to Zonalmarking, it was a 4411 with Busquets pushing a bit when on possession, and I can agree more with that than with saying it was a 343.

Busquets was very fast to go back and form a 4 line, so Madrid barely caught us with three at the back.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:31 am

But Madrid did make counters, they did get past the midfield did they not?

Alot of the great work I remember was Busi moving up to shut off Ozil, then Puyol controlling Cristiano.

I understand your point, but this tactic could easily be applied to other games who play similar to Madrid (fast counters, 4231 type system) and there are a few of those couldnt it?

And that was in essence, 3 at the back which transformed into 4 at the back when the ball reached a certain point in the field.




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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:40 am

@The Franchise wrote:But Madrid did make counters, they did get past the midfield did they not?

Alot of the great work I remember was Busi moving up to shut off Ozil, then Puyol controlling Cristiano.

I understand your point, but this tactic could easily be applied to other games who play similar to Madrid (fast counters, 4231 type system) and there are a few of those couldnt it?

And that was in essence, 3 at the back which transformed into 4 at the back when the ball reached a certain point in the field.





Indeed, and it was a mastermind tactic set up by Pep Guardiola and perfectly performed by Busquets, Puyol and Pique.

However, it was not a 343, it was not what we played vs. Valencia, Betis, Espanyol, milan, and many other games when we played a plain 343 and we sucked balls. So I don't think it can be used to defend the pathetic setup that is threatening to ruin our season.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:43 am

Well I guess we will have to disagree a little here.

I dont blame the formation for many of our failures really, I agree in that I didnt want it used in games like Valencia and some others but overall I dont think its the main reason we are behind in the table.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:18 am

I do blame the formation.
Why should we be conceding so many draws and defeats compared to last season if we have, on paper, a better team and squad?

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:34 am

Because they arent playing as good (Pedro, Villa) had had worse injuries and have a player we dont need (Cesc) who forces us to play differently.

All those things have been a bigger problem then the defending in a 343.

Granted, Cesc and 343 goes hand in hand.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

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