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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:30 pm

Maybe Pep thought that Puyol wouldn't be able to deal with Cristiano's speed after being out for so long.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:34 pm

Dani it looked like to me Messi was wider than they have it Cesc was alot further up the pitch( looked like he was between Alonso and Pepe to me) as was Busquets( who was almost level with Xavi from my view)
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Post by The Franchise on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:36 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Maybe Pep thought that Puyol wouldn't be able to deal with Cristiano's speed after being out for so long.

He is in better condition than last time he played vs Madrid.
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Post by The Franchise on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:40 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani it looked like to me Messi was wider than they have it Cesc was alot further up the pitch( looked like he was between Alonso and Pepe to me) as was Busquets( who was almost level with Xavi from my view)

Perhaps, I would have to really go look at it again.

I think Cesc went in between both those roles, whenever he did something productive and eye catching (passs to Sanchez, run in which Messi almost passed him a great pass) his starting position may of been in between, but I would guess most of his touches were from deeper. But again, I would have to look again.

I think you might be right about Busi and Xavi, but Xavi was picked up by Lass often while Busi was much more free, so I assume that gap in the diagram shows that.

The problem with these types of diagrams are, do you place them in average position, where they get the most touches or where they did their most memorable actions.
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Post by BarcaLearning on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:23 am

@messixaviesta wrote:
@BarcaLearning wrote:
Is it just me but Cesc as good as he is, sometimes slows down the play and tends to pause and look for a second or 2 b4 picking his accurate passes which are very good, but sometimes just disrupts the flow of our game?

Actually I think exactly the same. There are two reasons for it. One is he is not as good tactically as Xaviesta and has unsatisfactory off the ball movement. The second is that he is not as technically brilliant as our midfield maestros and doesn't have the silky skills or the slickness to avoid a marker and keep circulating the ball fast or as in Iniesta's case moving with it as well. What he does have though besides his goalscoring is consistent high quality passing. His passes are very precise and given a chance he is very likely to set up an attacker with clear cut scoring chances. Still given a choice I would play with three proper forwards and put Iniesta next to Xavi to recreate the midfield that has for years now been the soul of Barcelona.

Im not sure if hes not as good tactically and for off the ball movement, in fact, his off the ball is good considering he roams all over the field and makes those runs. His quickness, agility and skills can definitely be better though at times.

The most important worry that I have is, his style being a bit slower, needs more interplay etc, means vs teams that park the bus, it would naturally require more to block down teams that park the bus and hence makes it harder to score, than say Villa Pedro who is more direct and takes a shot and gets to the byline more or cuts in faster with pace...
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:45 am

@The Franchise wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Maybe Pep thought that Puyol wouldn't be able to deal with Cristiano's speed after being out for so long.

He is in better condition than last time he played vs Madrid.

True enough. I have no idea then.

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Post by Albiceleste on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:20 am

@The Franchise wrote:How zonalmarking has it is pretty much how I saw it, maybe not the arrow for Iniesta though. If anything his movement (with the ball) started from the touchline and coming in, while without the ball it was leftcentermidfield going out wide. Minor anyway.

One thing I did wonder about which zonalmarking remarked on too, why was it Pique on the rightside of center defence when Puyol usually does this vs Madrid and does it very well?

I dont think if it would a made a difference in Cristiano's goal, because Pique didnt do alot wrong in that defensive sequence but still.
nevermind


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Post by messixaviesta on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:54 am

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani it looked like to me Messi was wider than they have it Cesc was alot further up the pitch( looked like he was between Alonso and Pepe to me) as was Busquets( who was almost level with Xavi from my view)

To me, whatever little I could see, it seemed that Messi wasn't that wide. In fact since Messi as we all have said didn't work and run much in this game whatever right sided dribbling happened mainly came from Alexis. Hence Alexis and Messi were sort of interchanging between center and right. D.Alves this time was used in a more conservative role and thus he did not do as much attacking on the right wing as he is used to doing.

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Post by messixaviesta on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:04 am

@BarcaLearning wrote:
Im not sure if hes not as good tactically and for off the ball movement, in fact, his off the ball is good considering he roams all over the field and makes those runs.

Perhaps not bad but not up to the standards of the rest of the team. Yes he makes runs but most of them are unidimensional in the sense he just moves forward towards goal. A tactically brilliant player knows where to be when instinctively and that could be in the center, forward, behind, left or right. Anyway we will agree to disagree on that.

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Post by billy_gr on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:40 am

As a late reply, I have to say that yes the lines were not as linear as I typed them but it’s only because that’s what I could type in the text field.
Messi was withdrawn and Iniesta was closer to Alexis’ line… Next time I’ll try to draw a picture guys Wink
Anyway, the key is that this Barca plays probably the most fluid football I’ve seen and lines tend to blur.

Sure thing is I want 4 men on the back on difficult games
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Post by The Franchise on Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:17 am

Yeah thought so Billy, its a little difficult geting formations across on here.
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Post by alexjanosik on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:32 pm

@The Lizard King wrote:
I don't mind the 3-4-3, not one bit. Solely for the versatility that it provides our team. Last season, we were starved for bench depth and substitutes. While Pep was always kept guessing at which formation/players Mourinho would play, we almost always started the same 11 with the same formation.

This is where the new transfers came into play. Not only did it provide the obvious bench strength, but it paved way for moves like converting Cesc to a false 9 ( seriously..remember when we were worried that bringing Cesc in could hinder Thiago ? ) and playing Alves as a winger. We had a slight taste of Guardiola's plan with his conversion of Busquets and Mascherano to CB. And with moves like that, Guardiola has totally morphed the team.

Now we have a living, breathing, dynamic machine of a team. Which can change its form and flow according to whatever the situation requires. Recent examples include Betis and Madrid, where we were able to visibly change gears and up the ante when required. And deliver the necessary result. Those weren't games played strictly under the 3-4-3, but games that benefited from our use of the 3-4-3 .

I totally understand how Freecat says that it leaves us exposed on multiple levels, and he makes a valid point. But a system likes this always ensures that opposition coaches can't plan as well as they could, and we can always have a joker/wild card which disrupts their strategies and tactics. And I think that's what Guardiola is going for..a long term alternative. If that doesn't work..we can just revert back to the 4-3-3 and roll over em Razz

Sure we're bound to lose some games..and the 3-4-3 has its fallacies..but in the long run..I hope the 3-4-3 is here to stay.

Excellent post and I agree with it.
I also agree with khaled that after winning so much,in order to keep the motivation levels going, a change was necessary.
What also needs to be taken into account is that the 3-4-3 we play is not a regular 3-4-3.
Its unlike anything I have ever seen and I think it could be the next great tactical evolution.
We just dont have a set formation on the field.
Depending on the state of play we adapt and change shape.I think Xai said it best.That the team assesses the opposition and changes shape within minutes.
Its remarkable how we regularly keep changing shape within matches and the formation is so very fluid.I have not seen anything like it.
One moment we are playing a flat 3-4-3,the next a diamond 3-4-3,the next a traditional 4-3-3,the next a 3-6-1.
Its just so fluid and so exciting and its simply brilliant to watch.
Makes me proud of the team for pulling it off.fills me with pride that we are the only team who can pull off such a breathtaking system of play.

And the key player to making it work is Busquets.We wouldnt be able to switch shape so seamlessly without him.
A tactically perfect player,he knows exactly when to move and where.
One moment he is playing DM in a diamond 3-4-3,next moment he drops back into defense to form a back four,then some time later he plays sweeper in a back three,some other time he is in CM all in the same match!!
Again,just as with the team dont think I have seen a player like him.
There have been sweepers before him,there have been DM's before him, there have been CB's before him,there have been CM's before him but I dont think I have seen a player who combines all four roles and switches seamlessly between the four all in the same match!!!!!!!!
Busquets pulls it off because he is that damn good.A gem of a player.

The 3-4-3 has its merits but when we are on song and play it right there is nothing more mesmerizing and intriguing to watch.
We are still learning to play it.I think we need to work a bit more on switching between formations at the right time.
Both in the Valencia game and in the Espanyol game we took far too long to switch.
Once we figure that out and fix a few more minor chinks I think we would be as close to perfect as it gets.
So I am all on the 3-4-3 bandwagon.

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Post by BarcaLearning on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:03 am

@alexjanosik wrote:
@The Lizard King wrote:
I don't mind the 3-4-3, not one bit. Solely for the versatility that it provides our team. Last season, we were starved for bench depth and substitutes. While Pep was always kept guessing at which formation/players Mourinho would play, we almost always started the same 11 with the same formation.

This is where the new transfers came into play. Not only did it provide the obvious bench strength, but it paved way for moves like converting Cesc to a false 9 ( seriously..remember when we were worried that bringing Cesc in could hinder Thiago ? ) and playing Alves as a winger. We had a slight taste of Guardiola's plan with his conversion of Busquets and Mascherano to CB. And with moves like that, Guardiola has totally morphed the team.

Now we have a living, breathing, dynamic machine of a team. Which can change its form and flow according to whatever the situation requires. Recent examples include Betis and Madrid, where we were able to visibly change gears and up the ante when required. And deliver the necessary result. Those weren't games played strictly under the 3-4-3, but games that benefited from our use of the 3-4-3 .

I totally understand how Freecat says that it leaves us exposed on multiple levels, and he makes a valid point. But a system likes this always ensures that opposition coaches can't plan as well as they could, and we can always have a joker/wild card which disrupts their strategies and tactics. And I think that's what Guardiola is going for..a long term alternative. If that doesn't work..we can just revert back to the 4-3-3 and roll over em Razz

Sure we're bound to lose some games..and the 3-4-3 has its fallacies..but in the long run..I hope the 3-4-3 is here to stay.

Excellent post and I agree with it.
I also agree with khaled that after winning so much,in order to keep the motivation levels going, a change was necessary.
What also needs to be taken into account is that the 3-4-3 we play is not a regular 3-4-3.
Its unlike anything I have ever seen and I think it could be the next great tactical evolution.
We just dont have a set formation on the field.
Depending on the state of play we adapt and change shape.I think Xai said it best.That the team assesses the opposition and changes shape within minutes.
Its remarkable how we regularly keep changing shape within matches and the formation is so very fluid.I have not seen anything like it.
One moment we are playing a flat 3-4-3,the next a diamond 3-4-3,the next a traditional 4-3-3,the next a 3-6-1.
Its just so fluid and so exciting and its simply brilliant to watch.
Makes me proud of the team for pulling it off.fills me with pride that we are the only team who can pull off such a breathtaking system of play.

And the key player to making it work is Busquets.We wouldnt be able to switch shape so seamlessly without him.
A tactically perfect player,he knows exactly when to move and where.
One moment he is playing DM in a diamond 3-4-3,next moment he drops back into defense to form a back four,then some time later he plays sweeper in a back three,some other time he is in CM all in the same match!!
Again,just as with the team dont think I have seen a player like him.
There have been sweepers before him,there have been DM's before him, there have been CB's before him,there have been CM's before him but I dont think I have seen a player who combines all four roles and switches seamlessly between the four all in the same match!!!!!!!!
Busquets pulls it off because he is that damn good.A gem of a player.

The 3-4-3 has its merits but when we are on song and play it right there is nothing more mesmerizing and intriguing to watch.
We are still learning to play it.I think we need to work a bit more on switching between formations at the right time.
Both in the Valencia game and in the Espanyol game we took far too long to switch.
Once we figure that out and fix a few more minor chinks I think we would be as close to perfect as it gets.
So I am all on the 3-4-3 bandwagon.

Great posting guys.... Lazard says it the best about the benefits of the new 3-4-3 system, its just a name and is not strict, and changes throughout a match as alex mentioned too. Allows a lot of flexiblity and creates a new aim and freshness to the team after winning so much which is vital Smile

As for Busquets he is brilliant, although the critical is that he struggles with his pace to cover against accurate swift counter attacks. Well I guess no team is perfect so thats a slight weakness anyhow. Glad players like Mercherno and others too can fill that role at times.
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Post by free_cat on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:35 pm

Another game when we played our standard 433 without Keita and we had the biggest away win of the season. Another scar for the crappy 343.

I understand you Alex regard the 343 positively from a ideologically point of view, as you are a cruyffist. I'm also a cruyffist, but I'm also pragmatical and empirical, and all facts point out that 343 is a system that works worse than 433 four our team.

The motivation argument, I don't buy it, as we were less motivated vs Betis playing a 343, and long term: winning always keeps people motivated and involved, so it is better to win with a "boring" and "overused" tactic (our regular 433) than losing with a new and motivating tactic. This is a bit like changing sex partners. You are always very horny with a new one, but if she then *bleep* much worse than the last one you are not really winning anything.

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Post by free_cat on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:36 pm

Last sentence should reald: you are always very horny (motivated) with a new partner, but if she thens is much worse in bed than the previous one, you are not really winning anything.

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Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:24 am

Doing well in a 433 isnt a knock on 343...I dont get that.

All it means is we are a great team and play very well in a 433 against this opponant.
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Post by free_cat on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:03 pm

Doing good with a 433 actually is a big blow on 343 given that we have been kinda average playing with 343 and we can track back a good deal of our poor form away to the 343.

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Post by the xcx on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:17 pm

Seeing as barca is comfortable with 433, whats gonna happen to Cesc?..Sub player or as a rotation player perhaps?..I know he cant play in 433, seeing as biscuits is a must and he dosent cope well with Xavi/Iniesta in midfield...
Or use him as a striker.
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Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:10 pm

@free_cat wrote:Doing good with a 433 actually is a big blow on 343 given that we have been kinda average playing with 343 and we can track back a good deal of our poor form away to the 343.

But I think everyone (including Pep) knows the 433 is better, everyone knows its the go-to formation.

Playing well in it isnt a surprise and I dont think it means or should mean 343 should vanish.



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Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:12 pm

@The xcx wrote:Seeing as barca is comfortable with 433, whats gonna happen to Cesc?..Sub player or as a rotation player perhaps?..I know he cant play in 433, seeing as biscuits is a must and he dosent cope well with Xavi/Iniesta in midfield...
Or use him as a striker.

Up front, with Messi and Sanchez. Its not the usual 3 man attack, but its still very possible.
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Post by alexjanosik on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:20 pm

@free_cat wrote:Last sentence should reald: you are always very horny (motivated) with a new partner, but if she thens is much worse in bed than the previous one, you are not really winning anything.

LOL.You win.Cant really argue with that.

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Post by The Franchise on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:47 pm

Pique also said that Guardiola's decision to switch to just three at the back this season has helped Barcelona maintain their form.

He added: "We started doing it in pre-season more or less, and the gaffer got the idea because he felt we were getting too predictable: everyone knew all about us and played with every man behind the ball.

"The idea behind the 3-4-3 is to make us more attacking, give us more possession, and help us create more goal-scoring chances.

"You have to do much more running. After matches you're noticeably more tired because you have to deal with more attacks, you get pulled out into wide areas.

"It's more punishing for the centre-backs. That said, it's been a very good thing for me personally, as it's made me more versatile."
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Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:06 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
Up front, with Messi and Sanchez. Its not the usual 3 man attack, but its still very possible.

Acceptable but unfortunately it was Iniesta who was shunted on the left. Anyway now that Iniesta is injured we don't need to answer this question for some time. These recurring injuries of Iniesta are starting to worry me. Among all of Xavi's qualities perhaps the one least mentioned is how well he maintains his fitness. With Iniesta it's likely that over the years his injury problems will only increase which is a terrible thought.

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Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:06 pm

@The Franchise wrote:Pique also said that Guardiola's decision to switch to just three at the back this season has helped Barcelona maintain their form.

He added: "We started doing it in pre-season more or less, and the gaffer got the idea because he felt we were getting too predictable: everyone knew all about us and played with every man behind the ball.

"The idea behind the 3-4-3 is to make us more attacking, give us more possession, and help us create more goal-scoring chances.

"You have to do much more running. After matches you're noticeably more tired because you have to deal with more attacks, you get pulled out into wide areas.

"It's more punishing for the centre-backs. That said, it's been a very good thing for me personally, as it's made me more versatile."

Interesting read. Thanks for posting.

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Post by The Franchise on Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:14 pm

Its a shame, Iniesta just reminds me more and more of Zidane. He has these same annoying hamstring injuries.

Hopefully once he and Alexis return we can have Alexis flanking Messi with Pedro on the other side.

I know Pep loves having as many mids as possible but I much prefer 3 out and out forwards.
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Post by BarcaLearning on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:37 pm

@The Franchise wrote:Pique also said that Guardiola's decision to switch to just three at the back this season has helped Barcelona maintain their form.

He added: "We started doing it in pre-season more or less, and the gaffer got the idea because he felt we were getting too predictable: everyone knew all about us and played with every man behind the ball.

"The idea behind the 3-4-3 is to make us more attacking, give us more possession, and help us create more goal-scoring chances.

"You have to do much more running. After matches you're noticeably more tired because you have to deal with more attacks, you get pulled out into wide areas.

"It's more punishing for the centre-backs. That said, it's been a very good thing for me personally, as it's made me more versatile."

Thats great to learn. One of the weaknesses and still compared with Real for example is we dont score goals easily with everyone parking their buses vs us, we have to work harder to score its almost like compared with the other teams. Hence Im glad Guardiola has worked on that already back in the summer. We really added it, the more attacking option and plan B or just be more versatile Smile

@The Franchise wrote:Its a shame, Iniesta just reminds me more and more of Zidane. He has these same annoying hamstring injuries.

Hopefully once he and Alexis return we can have Alexis flanking Messi with Pedro on the other side.

I know Pep loves having as many mids as possible but I much prefer 3 out and out forwards.

I dont play sports...but why is Iniesta so injury prone? Although luckily he usually comes back quite quickly from injuries... ?
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