343 is a piece of crap

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarcaLearning on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:37 pm

@The Franchise wrote:Pique also said that Guardiola's decision to switch to just three at the back this season has helped Barcelona maintain their form.

He added: "We started doing it in pre-season more or less, and the gaffer got the idea because he felt we were getting too predictable: everyone knew all about us and played with every man behind the ball.

"The idea behind the 3-4-3 is to make us more attacking, give us more possession, and help us create more goal-scoring chances.

"You have to do much more running. After matches you're noticeably more tired because you have to deal with more attacks, you get pulled out into wide areas.

"It's more punishing for the centre-backs. That said, it's been a very good thing for me personally, as it's made me more versatile."

Thats great to learn. One of the weaknesses and still compared with Real for example is we dont score goals easily with everyone parking their buses vs us, we have to work harder to score its almost like compared with the other teams. Hence Im glad Guardiola has worked on that already back in the summer. We really added it, the more attacking option and plan B or just be more versatile Smile

@The Franchise wrote:Its a shame, Iniesta just reminds me more and more of Zidane. He has these same annoying hamstring injuries.

Hopefully once he and Alexis return we can have Alexis flanking Messi with Pedro on the other side.

I know Pep loves having as many mids as possible but I much prefer 3 out and out forwards.

I dont play sports...but why is Iniesta so injury prone? Although luckily he usually comes back quite quickly from injuries... ?

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Some players are just built better than others for the toll of a long season and avoidng injuries.

Genetics, diet, treatment, training and more all play some factor.

Yes, Iniesta comes back fast but credit our medical staff for that. All our players seem to comeback earlier than expected.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:03 pm

It's very hard to say, not even the best doctors can know for sure. There are many factors.

One big factor, though, is muscle structure. You can easily notice how slower players tend to be much less injury prone than quick or fast players (for instances: Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Puyol vs. Di Maria, Iniesta, Robben). Iniesta is not a very fast player, but he is quite quick, has good acceleration. This means that his muscles are probably made of a high % of fast fibres. These fibres are faster to contract, but have less endurance = more injury prone.

Messi also has a very high % of fast fibres (more than 70%), and he used to be injury prone before Pep. He doesn't suffer injuries now, because Pep made a plan for him consisting in changing his diet, having a personal fisio and more importantly, asking Messi to run very little on the field. Messi is always our player that runs the least bar Valdes.

Iniesta, on the other hand, plays as a CM, which is a position that involves a lot of running, and Pep cannot give him the licence to be lazy that Messi has, because 2 lazy players would make our team collapse.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarcaLearning on Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:45 pm

Omg, free cat, thats some excellent info....where do u get it from? Razz

It answers why Messi have been having more of the by appearance off or lazy performances this season? Razz Just guessing... or when did Guardiola tell him to run less do u know? Im not sure though, Messi still tracks and pressures and wins a lot of ball which is good but I have noticed this season hes appearing less and less running...

Messi is fast and strong, lucky for that, and it would be sad to see Iniesta constantly injured... hopefully they will work something out and he will be less injury prone in the future.... if he stays the same, probably need to rotate him more often...
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:59 pm

@free_cat wrote:It's very hard to say, not even the best doctors can know for sure. There are many factors.

One big factor, though, is muscle structure. You can easily notice how slower players tend to be much less injury prone than quick or fast players (for instances: Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Puyol vs. Di Maria, Iniesta, Robben). Iniesta is not a very fast player, but he is quite quick, has good acceleration. This means that his muscles are probably made of a high % of fast fibres. These fibres are faster to contract, but have less endurance = more injury prone.

Messi also has a very high % of fast fibres (more than 70%), and he used to be injury prone before Pep. He doesn't suffer injuries now, because Pep made a plan for him consisting in changing his diet, having a personal fisio and more importantly, asking Messi to run very little on the field. Messi is always our player that runs the least bar Valdes.

Iniesta, on the other hand, plays as a CM, which is a position that involves a lot of running, and Pep cannot give him the licence to be lazy that Messi has, because 2 lazy players would make our team collapse.

cat, that's an excellent post and the last paragraph is very interesting albeit controversial.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Well, 343 almost buried our league title hopes. Again, we play a 343, with a ridiculous formation as a result (Alves as RW, Cesc everywheer and nowhere..., Adriano as LW) and we struggle to make chances.

The motivation is also a factor, we are not eager to win as other seasons.
However, the biggest tactical factor is the 343.

Idiotic system.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by Madvillain on Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:16 pm

We basically already play 3-4-3 when Dani is RB anyways. Sure, Busi sometimes tends to drop back when Dani comes up, but when we are in possesion of the ball Dani acts as a midfielder or even an attacker. Unfortunately we are a lot more vulnerable at the back when we play this new 3-4-3. Hope Pep also sees that this simply does not work. I'm still not quite sure what his intentions were, but I think that he hoped it would give us an attacking edge without losing too much structure in defence. Sadly this is not the case.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:07 pm

We played 433 in the second half and still didnt win.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:13 pm

@The Franchise wrote:We played 433 in the second half and still didnt win.


True, but we played 433 with Alves and Adriano as wingers, because they started the game in a 343. It makes no sense to play Adriano and Alves as wingers in a 433. We didn't revert to our usual 433 with wingers/inside forwards, until Tello came in, and even then Alves was still in the pitch doing nothing as RW.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:15 pm

Hete BLKSM wrote:We basically already play 3-4-3 when Dani is RB anyways. Sure, Busi sometimes tends to drop back when Dani comes up, but when we are in possesion of the ball Dani acts as a midfielder or even an attacker. Unfortunately we are a lot more vulnerable at the back when we play this new 3-4-3. Hope Pep also sees that this simply does not work. I'm still not quite sure what his intentions were, but I think that he hoped it would give us an attacking edge without losing too much structure in defence. Sadly this is not the case.

In the contrary, 343 doesn't add much for us in attack. One case is Alves: as RBhe is a great attacking weapon, while playing as RW is worse than Cuenca.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:13 am

@free_cat wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:We played 433 in the second half and still didnt win.


True, but we played 433 with Alves and Adriano as wingers, because they started the game in a 343. It makes no sense to play Adriano and Alves as wingers in a 433. We didn't revert to our usual 433 with wingers/inside forwards, until Tello came in, and even then Alves was still in the pitch doing nothing as RW.

Okay, but it wasnt the formations fault (343) we didnt win the game, thats all im saying.

Its almost like, whenever there isnt a win its the formations fault when really its the players or lack there of.

Who else was we going to play other than Adriano and Alves anyway?

Cuenca, injured version of Sanchez or Tello...not exactly better choices.

We played 343 (and with Mascherano and Busi as some kind of double pivot) because they played with 2 strikers, and 2 centeral players in advanced center positions so it made sense to have 3 defenders on those 2 strikers and 2 holders on those two advancing centeral players.

I still think it was a terrible line up but it was more Mascherano and Busi in the midfield rather then the basic line that wasted the first 45 minutes.

Swap out Mascherano for Thiago and add some actual goalscorers to the same 343 and I wouldnt be surprised he we did alot better.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarcaLearning on Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:17 am

@The Franchise wrote:
@free_cat wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:We played 433 in the second half and still didnt win.


True, but we played 433 with Alves and Adriano as wingers, because they started the game in a 343. It makes no sense to play Adriano and Alves as wingers in a 433. We didn't revert to our usual 433 with wingers/inside forwards, until Tello came in, and even then Alves was still in the pitch doing nothing as RW.

Okay, but it wasnt the formations fault (343) we didnt win the game, thats all im saying.

Its almost like, whenever there isnt a win its the formations fault when really its the players or lack there of.

Who else was we going to play other than Adriano and Alves anyway?

Cuenca, injured version of Sanchez or Tello...not exactly better choices.

We played 343 (and with Mascherano and Busi as some kind of double pivot) because they played with 2 strikers, and 2 centeral players in advanced center positions so it made sense to have 3 defenders on those 2 strikers and 2 holders on those two advancing centeral players.

I still think it was a terrible line up but it was more Mascherano and Busi in the midfield rather then the basic line that wasted the first 45 minutes.

Swap out Mascherano for Thiago and add some actual goalscorers to the same 343 and I wouldnt be surprised he we did alot better.

I think our midfield would have lacked enough bite to counter Villarreal's though if we didnt have Mascherno.... we cant just focus on our attack, we need to be safe sometimes and counter the opposition in difficult away games which is what Guardiola wanted Im sure... it could be right or wrong in the end but its only normal selection.... I concern more about even after the subs we didnt have enough players in the box, etc...
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:08 am

@The Franchise wrote:
@free_cat wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:We played 433 in the second half and still didnt win.


True, but we played 433 with Alves and Adriano as wingers, because they started the game in a 343. It makes no sense to play Adriano and Alves as wingers in a 433. We didn't revert to our usual 433 with wingers/inside forwards, until Tello came in, and even then Alves was still in the pitch doing nothing as RW.

Okay, but it wasnt the formations fault (343) we didnt win the game, thats all im saying.

Its almost like, whenever there isnt a win its the formations fault when really its the players or lack there of.

Who else was we going to play other than Adriano and Alves anyway?

Cuenca, injured version of Sanchez or Tello...not exactly better choices.

We played 343 (and with Mascherano and Busi as some kind of double pivot) because they played with 2 strikers, and 2 centeral players in advanced center positions so it made sense to have 3 defenders on those 2 strikers and 2 holders on those two advancing centeral players.

I still think it was a terrible line up but it was more Mascherano and Busi in the midfield rather then the basic line that wasted the first 45 minutes.

Swap out Mascherano for Thiago and add some actual goalscorers to the same 343 and I wouldnt be surprised he we did alot better.

Who was gonna play instead of ADriano or Alves in a 433??? As if we didn't have choices! Tello was fantastic when he came in and did more than Alves in the whole match. Cuenca would have also been a better fit than Alves. You could have also played Thiago and move Cesc as CF, Messi at the RW and Adriano on the left. Plenty of options for the 433, all of them better than playing a 343 with Adriano and Alves as wingers.


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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:55 am

Exactly, thats my point. I said, I felt the problem was the players or the lack there of.

Yes, Tello did well when he came on. He is a forward, he knows how do play there. Dani Alves less so and also Adriano (who wasnt that bad but had no end product).

Cuenca? Maybe, but we was throwing in a few crosses already and none of them working. I dont think more crosses was the answer.

Messi on the RW? Im a little tired of seeing it, it doesnt work anymore. Messi doesnt play the same as he did then and without Iniesta he seemed to be coming deep to help the midfield. Doing that from the RW takes away width.

343 or 433 we lacked options in the forward line and again, Mascherano in the midfield hurt Xavi's influence on the game.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:58 am

I agree player selection was bad, but clearly picking 343 didn't help a good playe selection if you went with Adriano and Alves.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:03 am

Well sure, but if we speak about just the forward line.

343 with Dani Alves and Adriano vs 433 with Cuenca, Cesc and Messi on the wing.

I dont like either of them to be honest, none any more than the other.

343 to me, its a defence risk. Offensively its different but I dont see it hindering us so much. Defensively is where I worry about it.

Though stats are showing we are letting in less goals in the 343 vs the 433. But stats can be misleading.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarcaKizz on Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:05 am

We really need goalscorers right now...

Should never have played that amount of midfielders and defenders against Villareal. If anything, we should be more direct away from home.

We should never put ourselves in a situation where Alves and Adriano are our wingers... In fact, unless we're playing a really good attacking team, I don't think Alves should ever really play as a forward. He gives more to our attack a bit deeper even. Adriano I don't mind, but it means the other winger should be very direct, make runs in behind and act as a bit of a poacher.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:09 am

@The Franchise wrote:Well sure, but if we speak about just the forward line.

343 with Dani Alves and Adriano vs 433 with Cuenca, Cesc and Messi on the wing.

I dont like either of them to be honest, none any more than the other.

343 to me, its a defence risk. Offensively its different but I dont see it hindering us so much. Defensively is where I worry about it.

Though stats are showing we are letting in less goals in the 343 vs the 433. But stats can be misleading.

We should have played like this:

Alves Machete Pique Abidal
Xavi Busquets Thiago
Cuenca Messi Tello

Adriano in for Pique when he was injured and Alexis for Cuenca if he really was able to play (which I doubt after seeing his performance).



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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:51 am

Yeah,I like that line up Free.

Though, you could of played 3 at the back swapped Abidal or Pique for Cesc who plays his number 10 role.

And now looking, Tello played well but I dont think any of said he should start the game before it was played.

More realistically it would of been Adriano instead of him.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by Le Samourai on Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:05 am

When you guys play 3-4-3....who don't put 3 midfielders on the pitch.That would just plain bother me if I was a Barca fan.

Also, you are missing Villa/Pedro.Both understand the role that Sanchez is currently playing in, or whoever played there against Villareal,alot better.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarcaLearning on Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:48 am

Tello looks exactly, I only seen him twice now since hes only appeared twice....but he looks very oen dimensional so the opposition defense probably can work out how to defend him quite easily.... free is it true u get to see him a lot for Barca B or something? Can u tell us more about him? Razz

And even if Tello played, hes a winger getting to the byline and crossing low balls which is wonderful, but we dont have a striker in the box LOL?
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by Madvillain on Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:59 pm

@free_cat wrote:
Hete BLKSM wrote:We basically already play 3-4-3 when Dani is RB anyways. Sure, Busi sometimes tends to drop back when Dani comes up, but when we are in possesion of the ball Dani acts as a midfielder or even an attacker. Unfortunately we are a lot more vulnerable at the back when we play this new 3-4-3. Hope Pep also sees that this simply does not work. I'm still not quite sure what his intentions were, but I think that he hoped it would give us an attacking edge without losing too much structure in defence. Sadly this is not the case.

In the contrary, 343 doesn't add much for us in attack. One case is Alves: as RBhe is a great attacking weapon, while playing as RW is worse than Cuenca.

No, but I was just contemplating Pep's possible reason(s) for this new formation. Technically, moving up Dani on the field should make the team stronger in attack. I really don't think it's just due to him wanting to fit Cesc into the starting eleven. It could work though, as long as Busi drops back enough to give support to the defence, but in practise the team just looks a lot less organized, especially in the back.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:57 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
Messi on the RW? Im a little tired of seeing it, it doesnt work anymore. Messi doesnt play the same as he did then and without Iniesta he seemed to be coming deep to help the midfield. Doing that from the RW takes away width.

I agree. I said in an earlier post that in 2008-09 Messi played very energetically and continuously dribbled and cut inside from the right. Now he conserves energy and plays with intelligence. Hence his influence is much more if he is in the center. The minute we put Messi in the center it's difficult to find a starting position for Fabregas. This is not a new problem. Many of us mentioned it in the summer itself. Good point about width.


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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:23 am

Good display at Mestalla with a 433. We still conceded from a play down Valencia's left wing, but it wasn't the massacre that it could have been in the league game, where they could have scored 3-4 goals in the first half playing a 343.

IMO we were much better defensively and had more opportunities also than in the league game. We could have easily won had Pique/Messi/Sanchez converted any of their chances/penalty; while in the league game, Valencia deserved more.

More evidence that 433 is superior. I can't even count all the evidence that is piling up anymore... it's too much.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:05 am

Seems that after months of campaigning against the 343, it seems a dead system. It should have never come out of the cementery to be honest.

Question: Has the 343 killed our league title hopes?

My answer is that nothing has only one factor, but yes, it has been one of the causes.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:13 am

If you were to rank the causes, where would you put it? I think thats an even better question.

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