Pep Guardiola : El Puto Amo!

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:57 pm

Interesting alex that you think Thiago will be a regular starter. All I know is that if that happens some people will start sharpening knives against Pep.

Why do you think Gotze cannot be one of the two AMs? After all he usually played as a 10 for BVB last season.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:28 am

What's the difference between a 4-5-1 and a 4-1-4-1?

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Post by messixaviesta on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:16 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:What's the difference between a 4-5-1 and a 4-1-4-1?
Interesting question. I think a 4-5-1 can be derived from any of 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. It's like starting on paper with one of those systems and then playing in a manner meant to suffocate the midfield with bodies rather than going for any enterprising play. Another way of describing 4-5-1 could be that there isn't much in the identity of your five midfielders. There are no specific pivots, trequartistas or wingers. All the midfielders are sort of interchangeable and they are expected to use numbers and bodies to gain control of the midfield. Not a system for a purist but it is often the weapon of smaller teams who successfully manage to stifle teams looking much more superior to them on paper and I think I have seen this happening several times in both club and international football.

4-1-4-1 instead is a very enterprising system meant for a purist. It signifies more attacking intent than a 4-2-3-1. Essentially only one of your midfielders is defensive and that is the pivot. You have two wingers on either side to provide both speed and frequent delivery into the box. In the center you have not one trequartista but two attacking midfielders responsible for creating everything. One solitary center forward on top is the beneficiary of four dedicated creators behind him.

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Post by alexjanosik on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:54 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:Interesting alex that you think Thiago will be a regular starter. All I know is that if that happens some people will start sharpening knives against Pep.

Why do you think Gotze cannot be one of the two AMs? After all he usually played as a 10 for BVB last season.
I am assuming that Pep expects the two to help in keeping possession and dictate play.Gotze isnt that player.Yes he played AM for Dortmund but that was a more counter attacking system and he was not concerned with keeping possession and dictating play.Not what Pep wants from his midfielders.Then there is the defensive aspect.Both Kroos and Thiago are much better defensively.
Hence why think those two will be the perfect fits and not Gotze.

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Post by messixaviesta on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:17 pm

alex, your reply makes good sense. I can relate it well with some of Pep's comments and actions.


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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:44 am

JD but when talking about 4-2-3-1 people hardly ever mention it as a 4-5-1, likewise with the 4-3-3 as the 4-5-1 inmplies that the wings are wider. So if the 4-1-4-1 and the 4-5-1 are commonly understood to be the same thing  it kinda makes me think the German press is referring to it as the former to make it sound more unique than it actually is.

About Goetze iirc Pep asked for Neymar, Pep was told that the club no longer signs players from Brazil directly as the culture shock is too high and risky so they would sign a player that fit the same profile, and went for Goetze instead. I'm not sure if Pep had no input whatsoever in this decision since he did ask for a player in that position.

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Post by messixaviesta on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:18 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:JD but when talking about 4-2-3-1 people hardly ever mention it as a 4-5-1, likewise with the 4-3-3 as the 4-5-1 inmplies that the wings are wider. So if the 4-1-4-1 and the 4-5-1 are commonly understood to be the same thing  it kinda makes me think the German press is referring to it as the former to make it sound more unique than it actually is.

About Goetze iirc Pep asked for Neymar, Pep was told that the club no longer signs players from Brazil directly as the culture shock is too high and risky so they would sign a player that fit the same profile, and went for Goetze instead. I'm not sure if Pep had no input whatsoever in this decision since he did ask for a player in that position.
Not sure of that alfred. Most of the times that I have heard the term 4-5-1, it was for the more negative version of 4-3-3 where your two wingers do not attack that much and provide more bodies in midfield. I think one of two definitions of 4-5-1 can be appropriate. Either we can think of it as the most negative version of any system having one striker and four defenders. Or we can think of it as a generic term meant to encompass all systems of this kind i.e. 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1, 4-3-2-1, etc.

Yes Pep asked for Neymar. You have given some interesting reasons why Bayern didn't go for him but one reason which they gave officially is they felt he would find it difficult to adjust to the climate.

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Post by alexjanosik on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:52 pm

2-0 win for Pep.
Martinez doesnt make the field again.Pep starts with a midfield of Schweini,Thiago and Goetze.
Goetze was positionally all over the place confirming my belief that he cant play there yet.After today,dont think Pep will play him there often.
What was interesting was the role played by Lahm.When Bayern had the ball,he tucked into midfield,almost acting as an extra midfielder.Without the ball,he would go back wide.But with it,he was often found near the center of the pitch.Thus overloading the midfield.

With us,Pep used Messi dropping deep to overload the midfield. For them,Mandzukic plays up top and doesnt drop.So to create numerical superiority it seems Pep has Lahm drop inside quite a lot.Quite risky if I may say so.With a fast tricky opposition left winger,could be risky on the counter.

Also clearly the team has still not taken shape.The system and ideals are not yet firmly there.And when things arent going their way(like today),they seem to be reverting to their old style of play.
Will take time I suppose.

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Post by alexjanosik on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:57 pm

Thought I would add this.
Ribery is simply unplayable when on form.Guy is just unbelievable.

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Post by The Franchise on Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:06 pm

I read Martinez is unfit rather than not liked by Pep.
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Post by Hawky on Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:19 pm

I watched the game today too. Bayern had a very solid second half, when they started playing more on the wings.

They will be the team to beat this season for sure, especially if Pep manages to combine short pass and direct play as I have seen on many occasions today (short passes in the midfield followed by direct balls to the wingers). The players are great individually and have a very good mix of technique and physicality.

Gotze is not very good playing that deep imo, but we should see how he adapts to the new team and system.

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:59 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:Thought I would add this.
Ribery is simply unplayable when on form.Guy is just unbelievable.
A question to all my fellow Barca fans. How highly do you rate Ribery compared to our best players? Earlier the likes of alex and me rated Ribery high but not that high. I remember in the summer of 2012 dani said he would place Ribery just behind our trinity, Cristiano, Ibrahimovic and Pirlo. A few months later Alfred said he considered Ribery the second best player in the world neck to neck with Cristiano, Iniesta and Ibrahimovic. Since then Ribery has had an outstanding season winning the treble with a very decisive performance in the UCL final. So what's the equation now? Where exactly do he stand in the world pecking order?

I am asking not so much in terms of current form but more in terms of overall class.

I think Ribery will win Best Player In Europe. Do you guys think he should also win the Fifa Ballon D'or?

BTW for all his hype I don't think Bale as yet deserves to be talked about in the same breath as the players that I have mentioned here. Maybe one day he can get there but the kind of praise he is getting in some quarters as of now I feel is somewhat premature.

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Post by free_cat on Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:07 pm

The funny thing about Ribery is that the dude keeps improving. He was a relatively late bloomer at 23, and since then he has continued improving. When Madrid tried to sign him in 2009, I considered him to be one of the most overated players in the world, as I didn't think him to be any better than many other wingers that were being sold for around 25 milion (like Robben or Robinho), and Ribery was supposed to be sold for 60.
However, as I said, dude has continued to improve and now is surely a great an incredible player. Him and Neymare are surely the best LW around, and he is probably a top 10 player in the world, but wouldn't go as far as saying top 3 after Messi and Cristiano.

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Post by The Franchise on Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:19 pm

I think the 4 of Cristiano, Messi, Iniesta and Ibra are better.

Nobody else I would say, is clearly better and who I prefer out of all those players can probably change from day to day.
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Post by messixaviesta on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:22 pm

cat and dani, thanks for very interesting replies.


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Post by alexjanosik on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:45 am

Again had Lahm tucking into midfield after martinez came on.What this does is allow one of the 2 in front to either push forward or go wide.So we saw Muller go wide and Robben go central and add numbers with Mandzukic,or Muller go up top with Mandzukic. Similarly when Gotze came on.
Very interesting.I think he has developed this system to counter park the bus systems.Add as many bodies in the front line as possible while also maintaining good possession.Ofcourse it needs a technically excellent FB like a Lahm or Alves to pull off.And its very dangerous on the counter.
But it might help against PTB teams.Bayern created quite a few chances against Chelsea after the change.

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Post by alexjanosik on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:48 am

I am not exactly sure but I think I remember having a discussion with dani regarding Alves playing a similar role for us to help break down PTB teams.Not sure about the context of the discussion.Correct me if I am wrong dani.

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Post by futbol on Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:43 am

I think throwing tall physical players like Mandzukic and Martinez upfront had more of an influence. Cech saved at least 2 headers from like 6 yards out. We have 0 physicality in the squad to throw anyone upfront and switch to high ball tactics. Except Pique who can't direct a header to save his life.

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Post by vivabarca38 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:14 am

Something I noticed about the style of play Pep introduced(Some of you may now some of this already haha)

I noticed that since the Pep era when a winger cuts in or is positioned in the center or moves away from the wings he is usually replaced by a rushing full-back(Didnt really happen with Abidal)Also when Messi drops deep the Right or left Winger(Right now Alexis)Moves to the center and Alves acts as a Right winger in his position.When Wingers are in their position the Full-backs usually stay back which certainly helps in keeping the ball as much as possible.

Just shows he's a tactical genius.

You'll notice this in future Barca matches if you concentrate.

Would explain it better with Pictures but can't really seem to find the right ones.
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Post by The Franchise on Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:38 pm

Im trying hard to remember Alex, but I cant recall the context of our discussion that day. But I 100% do remember us talking about Dani Alves in midfield.

I agree with what you saw Alex and I think it goes back to either Cruyff or Pep himself saying, the way to counter teams playing with 10 players in and around the box is to have even more of your own players in and around the box, in front of the ball. It was something very obvious from Bayern, many numbers in the box.

But I also agree with Futbol about having some big bodies in scoring position is crucial. Because those 50-50 balls, even if you dont win them...the bigger, stronger bodies make clearances much more difficult. Where I dont agree with him is Pique though exactly...yes, he doesnt direct headers well at all, but for sure he has had an impact getting ahead of the ball in games. Inter obviously is the most prominent but there have been other occasions also.

Despite our fair enough size squad numerically, I really wish we made better changes in the summer.

I think we really need a decent size leftback, obviously a real centerback...but also, I feel like we need a Keita year 1-2 midfield and perhaps even an older, role playing number 9.

I think you add Cardozo (im not actually a big a fan because he lacks pace badly, but we are linked so I'll include him), a Paulinho, a Luis Felipe/Umtiti (based on profile, I dont know how good he is) and basically one of like half a dozen centerbacks we all can think of...thats an actual summer transfer window I could of been happy with.
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Post by futbol on Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:57 pm

I don't have a clue why we got rid of every bit of physicality in the squad. Abidal, Yaya, Keita, Milito, Eto'o, Henry. We haven't replaced any one of them. We can't change the game dynamics at all replacing Alexis with Pedro or Fabregas with Iniesta. Sad

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Post by CBarca on Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:25 pm

Honestly would have loved for Barca to have bought Paulinho. Probably as powerful as Keita in terms of pure physicality, quicker, more technically gifted, and offers a goal threat from midfield. No more of a slouch defensively than Keita while offering a lot more offensively.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:02 am


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Post by The Franchise on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:47 am

Watched this about a year ago, I think I was looking at different clips on the Barcelona of Cryuff and found this accidental.

Fantastic display for Pep, wonderful performance. Easy to forget just how good he was.

Superior to the likes of Alonso.
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Post by BarcaLearning on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:59 am

Holy shet, thx BC.... sorta brings back some memories. I was a Liverpool fan just started watching football. Knew next to nothing, and even if I did a bit later on, I just focused on the stars, never appreicated the defensive or DLP etc.

Watching this justs how good he was, almost like a Xavi + Busquets combined.

I also remember I played Championship Manager 1998 I think it was, and I remember a player in that called Guardiola with the best stats (player attributes) and I had no idea who he was, here is my answer after all these years XD
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:40 pm

I manged to watch the last 30 minutes of this City - Bayern game and this team already has Pep Munich all over it. The short, half-touch passing, retaining possession, the positioning to always make themselves available, the patience to wait for a perfect chance. Makes for very enjoyable watching. City had no game plan to deal with this.

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