HIGGY STAYING HATERS AND BIATCHES!!!!

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:37 am

Emotion aside, Higuain was the starter until his back injury 2.5 years ago. It had nothing to do with wages or anything else... he was the starter. When he took 5 months for the injury, Benz took the opportunity to establish himself. When Higuain came back, he got close to Benz in terms of performance, but was slightly below him. Never could get the upper hand.

In the end, it came down to output and style. Benz had better output statistically and also is much more of a creator and provider than Higuain, which is what you need when you play next to CR7.

Everyone wants to point to intangible factors for the choice. There's nothing intangible about it. If Higuain had been the one performing better and fit better with CR7, Benz would have been the one to be sold.

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Post by Clandestino on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:18 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Emotion aside, Higuain was the starter until his back injury 2.5 years ago. It had nothing to do with wages or anything else... he was the starter. When he took 5 months for the injury, Benz took the opportunity to establish himself. When Higuain came back, he got close to Benz in terms of performance, but was slightly below him. Never could get the upper hand.

In the end, it came down to output and style. Benz had better output statistically and also is much more of a creator and provider than Higuain, which is what you need when you play next to CR7.

Everyone wants to point to intangible factors for the choice. There's nothing intangible about it. If Higuain had been the one performing better and fit better with CR7, Benz would have been the one to be sold.

That's personal opinion that has very very little backing in actual numbers that you posted in another thread. I've checked them and Benz does seem to have a slightly better output than Pipita; however, what your numbers don't show is that Pipita started much less matches in this period - let's broaden the comparison.

This season: Benz 0,47 goals per game started. Pipita 0,63. (all competitions)
Last season: Benz 0,7. Pipita 0,84.
2010/2011: Benz 0,76. Pipita 0,63 (Pipita's injury year in which Benz got his chance, which he didn't earn on the playing field).

True enough, Benz has the better assist output, but Pipita has a ridiculously better shot conversion ratio - one quite important for a striker, wouldn't you agree? This season Benz 15%, Pipita 17,7%, last season Benz 19%, Pipita 33% (!), 2010/11 Benz 24,5% and Pipita 22%.

There is also the fact that Benzema is non-existent in defence and pressing, while Pipita makes a good contribution. Just looking at the fact Pipita starts for Argentina and Benzema is on the brink of losing his spot for France (the difference in striker competition for both countries is ridiculous) should mean something to you, even though I can't translate it into statistics.

In conclusion, don't just put out some random numbers and claim its evidence. Look at the Pipita's farewell thread and see what people really think. The guy is leaving because Perez favours Benzema, our coaches don't believe in him enough and because we're probably bringing yet another one of the forward superstars with whom Pipita would have to fight for his spot and he simply feels he doesn't need to prove anything any more. And he is right as far as I am concerned.
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Post by Zealous on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:28 pm

@Clandestino wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:Emotion aside, Higuain was the starter until his back injury 2.5 years ago. It had nothing to do with wages or anything else... he was the starter. When he took 5 months for the injury, Benz took the opportunity to establish himself. When Higuain came back, he got close to Benz in terms of performance, but was slightly below him. Never could get the upper hand.

In the end, it came down to output and style. Benz had better output statistically and also is much more of a creator and provider than Higuain, which is what you need when you play next to CR7.

Everyone wants to point to intangible factors for the choice. There's nothing intangible about it. If Higuain had been the one performing better and fit better with CR7, Benz would have been the one to be sold.

That's personal opinion that has very very little backing in actual numbers that you posted in another thread. I've checked them and Benz does seem to have a slightly better output than Pipita; however, what your numbers don't show is that Pipita started much less matches in this period - let's broaden the comparison.

This season: Benz 0,47 goals per game started. Pipita 0,63. (all competitions)
Last season: Benz 0,7. Pipita 0,84.
2010/2011: Benz 0,76. Pipita 0,63 (Pipita's injury year in which Benz got his chance, which he didn't earn on the playing field).

True enough, Benz has the better assist output, but Pipita has a ridiculously better shot conversion ratio - one quite important for a striker, wouldn't you agree? This season Benz 15%, Pipita 17,7%, last season Benz 19%, Pipita 33% (!), 2010/11 Benz 24,5% and Pipita 22%.

There is also the fact that Benzema is non-existent in defence and pressing, while Pipita makes a good contribution. Just looking at the fact Pipita starts for Argentina and Benzema is on the brink of losing his spot for France (the difference in striker competition for both countries is ridiculous) should mean something to you, even though I can't translate it into statistics.

In conclusion, don't just put out some random numbers and claim its evidence. Look at the Pipita's farewell thread and see what people really think. The guy is leaving because Perez favours Benzema, our coaches don't believe in him enough and because we're probably bringing yet another one of the forward superstars with whom Pipita would have to fight for his spot and he simply feels he doesn't need to prove anything any more. And he is right as far as I am concerned.

I second this wholeheartedly.

I'll also add that if we don't replace Higuain with a player who is absolutely and clearly better than him then all of this would have been a terrible joke.


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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:07 pm

higuain was right, he was never going to be trusted and rightfully so in my opinion, never saw that"it" with him. he is laving because he felt like the club betrayed him, never renewed him as the promised and an unfair continuous competition with everyone.

i love Benzema, but i dont want him as sole starter for us. Not a matter of talent because i still believe him to the uniquely gifted but he lacks hunger, lacks character, passion, that nervous tension all top strikers share. anyway, seeing as both momentum went down, i am not willing to trust benzema alone so i hope someone else arrives to burry him to the bench.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:10 pm

2010-2011
Benz - 26 goals and 9 assists

2011-2012
Benz - 32 goals and 19 assists

2012-2013
Benz - 20 goals and 20 assists

Terrible stuff by Benz. Just horrible while only averaging 2900 mins a season in the last 3 years. There are 5-10 better CFs out there than can put his output to shame.

I want him gone too!

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:29 pm

Clandestino. Your stats are made up lol. Wtf is that. Here are the real stats.

Benzema this year
32 starts all competitions
17 goals scored as a starter
Avg mins per start 75.6 mins
ratio of 0.53

Benzema last year
38 starts all competition
23 goals as a starter
Avg mins per start 80.5 mins
ratio of 0.61

Higuain this year
26 games starts all competitions
14 goals
Avg mins per start 80.2 mins
ratio of 0.54

Higuain last year
28 starts all competition
23 goals as a starter
Avg mins per start 76.9 mins
ratio of 0.82

But here's the thing. Benz has a ton more assists and also performs big on the big stage... namely the CL. Also has fantastic stats against Barca.

CL stats

Higuain
This year 9 games (6 starts), 1 goal and 2 assists
Last year 12 games (5 starts), 3 goals and 2 assists
total 21 games (11 starts), 4 goals and 4 assists

Benzema
This year 10 games (6 starts), 5 goals and 5 assists
Last year 11 games (10 starts), 7 goals and 5 assists
total 21 games (16 starts), 12 goals and 10 assists

source: http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/First_Team/1193041476158/Plantilla/Squad.htm

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:31 pm

I'll add that if you use transfermarkt.com stats (which i don't like), Benz is way up there in Goals+ assists in 90 mins while Higuain is down the list:

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:33 pm

come on sports, you are starting to go the Crimson route, arguing with pile of stats, i am worried now.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:44 pm

for CFs, it's 80% stats. That's how it is. They are either the last or the next to last player of the ball when there's a goal. So goals and assists are massively telling. If you're a CM or winger, it becomes less so because you are responsible for flow.

To say stats aren't critically important for CFs is ridiculous.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:49 pm

stats mean nothing when you are about to lose your starting spot to Giroud and re positioned because you are the least threatening big forward in europe.

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Post by alexander mahone on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:50 pm

@sports
The stats in realmadrid.com particularly this season is still inaccurate and has many inconsistency when crossed to various sources.

I don't understand why you're bragging so much about Benzema's assist stats though. I agree that Benzema slightly add more to build up than Higuain, but this thing hardly captured by any stats anyway.
Assist stats is about final passes, that's it, and when it comes to final pass, Higuain is not inferior than Benzema at all and this year in CL he actually made more of those than Benzema.
The thing is, no matter how many final passes you made, you could only made assists just as much as people finishing those passes so it could be counted as assists. When you considered Higuain made 1.4 key passes per game in CL while Benzema only made 1.1 per game, the fact that in CL Benzema had 4 assists while Higuain only 2 assists doesn't mean anything rather than Higuain wasn't as lucky to have his final passes being converted as efficient. I think you should be be more careful interpreting assist stats with could be very misleading. Benzema might be our 2nd top assist man this season, but he's not even our 3rd final passes creator, hell not even top 5.



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Post by Le Samourai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:51 pm

I only disagree with the notion that Benz has gotten anything from Perez. Though Perez is a fan, the mere fact that Benz has been the secure starter for all of 1 year out of four - coinciding with Higuain's injury and during which time he had about 40 goals and 20 assists - to me puts that notion to rest.

He was lucky to get his chance, he retained his spot for a period of time based on performances - and barring being favored to a on form Higuain in the latter half of last season - he has been done no favors.

His freedom and contribution has been as constricted as Higuain's - and neither of them deserve the ultimately futile position they found themselves in a broken system exacerbated by a unfeasible rotation system, merely at the root of a larger series of childish and regressive management practices.

My opinion of both are higher than most's opinion of either and I have consistently refused to see it as one against the other. Because they fit together. If this club had even an ounce of vision they would have both gradually replaced Raul and eventually formed the ideal duo.

They would have been complimented by players that actually put them in positions to succeed, and it's my conjectural stupid childish belief that here - 4 years later we would be falling over ourselves bragging that we have the best duo of forwards in world football - not merely talented but completely cohesive and complimentary.

But who needs a team? Who needs players that fit? We have the money to blindly spend it on the biggest and the best and then celebrate in our own ignorance. I'm 17 and I feel as though loving this club is eating away at my soul, and I have 50 more years of punishment to endure....and the worst thing is it's never the losing. It's this foolishness, it's the process, it's the seasons of garbage and the summers of shame. It's a cycle, never ending,
for every success there is 50 little failures.

It's pointless.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:59 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:stats mean nothing when you are about to lose your starting spot to Giroud and re positioned because you are the least threatening big forward in europe.
They're putting Benz behind Giroud in the SS role, which is where he is supposed to be everywhere. Heck, he was supposed to play right behind Higuain when Madrid bought him. He spent over half his time as a SS in Lyon with Fred and others playing in front of him.

@Mahone: Realmadrid.com is the most accurate. It jives with ESPN except ESPN doesn't give all the cup stats. It even coincides with http://www.whoscored.com/, who use Opta i think for league and CL (no cup). They either use Opta or Stats LLC, which are very good. Transfermarkt.com is the one i don't like at all. Y

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Post by Zealous on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:03 pm

No striker will ever retire at Madrid. This club is too preoccupied with the grass on the other side to ever allow that to happen.

Benzema is next on the list btw, if we sign a big name striker this summer he's as good as gone next summer.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:10 pm

Yeah... benz is a shortimer anyhow no matter what he does. That i agree with.

I will say this now and peeps remember: When both Higgy and Benz are gone, we will all be extremely sad. Why? Nobody could have produced like these 2 have over the past 3 years given the horrible circumstances for them. Not one CF out there. Why again you ask? Anyone else would be biatching and crying so loud that it would be a mess.

Benz asked for a transfer too btw for over a year and Zizou has convinced him to stay. Like Higuain, he's also itching to know what he can become if he's featured.

It's tough enough to play CF at Madrid. And then you ask them to be a role player because of CR7... and then you ask them to rotate. Nobody of any talent level can last long.

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Post by alexander mahone on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:21 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
@Mahone: Realmadrid.com is the most accurate. It jives with ESPN except ESPN doesn't give all the cup stats. It even coincides with http://www.whoscored.com/, who use Opta i think for league and CL (no cup). They either use Opta or Stats LLC, which are very good. Transfermarkt.com is the one i don't like at all. Y

They normally are, but they made errors, though usually they corrected it later. The Benzema stats for example, it's inflated right now. Benzema assist stats according to them (league: 12, CL: 5), according to whoscored and other sources (league: 11, CL: 4).
Transfermarkt.com just use different rules, but they're consistent.
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Post by Clandestino on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:03 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
@Mr Nick09 wrote:stats mean nothing when you are about to lose your starting spot to Giroud and re positioned because you are the least threatening big forward in europe.
They're putting Benz behind Giroud in the SS role, which is where he is supposed to be everywhere. Heck, he was supposed to play right behind Higuain when Madrid bought him. He spent over half his time as a SS in Lyon with Fred and others playing in front of him.

@Mahone: Realmadrid.com is the most accurate. It jives with ESPN except ESPN doesn't give all the cup stats. It even coincides with http://www.whoscored.com/, who use Opta i think for league and CL (no cup). They either use Opta or Stats LLC, which are very good. Transfermarkt.com is the one i don't like at all. Y

My stats are from ESPN (all competitions, including internationals) and lol @ thinking I made them up. The thing is they don't back you up which is why you felt it's necessary to try and negate them. The simple fact that basically nobody agrees with you should be good enough for you, but you go ahead and invent your theories and arguments to support them if it makes you feel better...

Anyone who watched Real Madrid over the past 3 seasons can tell you who is (was) our top striker and who should be automatic first choice. Besides, the main stats for striker is scoring goals and Pipita scores more goals than Benzema per minutes played and per shots taken, always has and always will. You fail.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:13 pm

i disagree with sports usage of statistics but i never thought Higuain should be automatic starter, no chance.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:47 pm

@alexander mahone wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:
@Mahone: Realmadrid.com is the most accurate. It jives with ESPN except ESPN doesn't give all the cup stats. It even coincides with http://www.whoscored.com/, who use Opta i think for league and CL (no cup). They either use Opta or Stats LLC, which are very good. Transfermarkt.com is the one i don't like at all. Y

They normally are, but they made errors, though usually they corrected it later. The Benzema stats for example, it's inflated right now. Benzema assist stats according to them (league: 12, CL: 5), according to whoscored and other sources (league: 11, CL: 4).
Transfermarkt.com just use different rules, but they're consistent.
transfermkt has it at 12 and 5. UEFA website has Benzema at 5 assists... so i guess they use the same source.

Meh... i don't who's stats are official lol.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:50 pm

@Clandestino wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:
@Mr Nick09 wrote:stats mean nothing when you are about to lose your starting spot to Giroud and re positioned because you are the least threatening big forward in europe.
They're putting Benz behind Giroud in the SS role, which is where he is supposed to be everywhere. Heck, he was supposed to play right behind Higuain when Madrid bought him. He spent over half his time as a SS in Lyon with Fred and others playing in front of him.

@Mahone: Realmadrid.com is the most accurate. It jives with ESPN except ESPN doesn't give all the cup stats. It even coincides with http://www.whoscored.com/, who use Opta i think for league and CL (no cup). They either use Opta or Stats LLC, which are very good. Transfermarkt.com is the one i don't like at all. Y

My stats are from ESPN (all competitions, including internationals) and lol @ thinking I made them up. The thing is they don't back you up which is why you felt it's necessary to try and negate them. The simple fact that basically nobody agrees with you should be good enough for you, but you go ahead and invent your theories and arguments to support them if it makes you feel better...

Anyone who watched Real Madrid over the past 3 seasons can tell you who is (was) our top striker and who should be automatic first choice. Besides, the main stats for striker is scoring goals and Pipita scores more goals than Benzema per minutes played and per shots taken, always has and always will. You fail.
ESPN doesn't separate stats for starts and subs... they give goals and assists in total. So how did you do that? LaughingLaughingLaughing

And the TOTAL stats they have include preseason, friendlies and NT, which are entirely irrelevant to official competitions with Madrid Laughing

Why don't you link where you got your numbers if you don't mind. I don't want to start calling you bad names if it's unwarranted.


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Post by Le Samourai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:14 pm

Sports, one thing is clear. He didn't play as well as the stats seem to indicate. Whether that is due to not being given the correct role or opportunities is debatable, but he certainly wasn't the better than all the guys below him who played 3000+ minutes.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:24 pm

@Le Samourai wrote:Sports, one thing is clear. He didn't play as well as the stats seem to indicate. Whether that is due to not being given the correct role or opportunities is debatable, but he certainly wasn't the better than all the guys below him who played 3000+ minutes.
Compared to the last 2 years, he obviously wasn't as good in scoring especially. But this happens every time almost with players in the Euro or WC. There is fatigue and players typically take a few months into the season to get going EXCEPT for the ones who have positive momentum out of those tournaments. CR7, Ozil and Benz all started out slow because they had disappointment in the Euro either personally or in terms of the team or both and got a lot better in 2013. But Ozil and CR7 played all the time and were able to get a rhythm. Even though Benz got better... he never could find rhythm because of his choppy playing time.

Regardless, it's clear that Benz was better this year than Higuain imo. Neither was great... but Benz scored more and really helped set up play with Di Maria going full retard as Z said.

I blame a lot of our CF issues on Di Maria completely losing the plot and Ozil being inconsistent. A CF cannot do his thing without services... it's impossible. But at least Benz has enough scope to his game to dish out 20 assists, which everyone seems to ignore somehow.

Also, Benz asked for a transfer in September and was shot down by Madrid. It's not like he was happy with the situation to begin with. Higuain was convinced to stay after wanting to leave... not exactly two happy CFs coming in.

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Post by alexander mahone on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:33 pm

@sportsczy wrote:transfermkt has it at 12 and 5. UEFA website has Benzema at 5 assists... so i guess they use the same source.
Meh... i don't who's stats are official lol.

Transfermkt counted things like deflected shots/passes that led to goal as assists as well, that's why according to them Benzema and everyone else got extra assists in comparison to any sources that quote Opta or something else that apply the same rules. UEFA website has many similarity with transfermkt, we had 3 players recorded 5 assists according to them which is not the case if we only counted 'clean' passes as assists like Opta does.
I don't know which rule realmadrid.com use to because they seem applying transfemkt rule in Benzema case, but applying Opta rule to Higuain, etc, which makes the number weird to compare.
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Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:35 pm

There's Stats LLC that's in the game too Laughing You would think FIFA and UEFA would annually just name one of them as official ffs

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Post by Le Samourai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:39 pm

Does it really matter, Benzema is a great passer and makes great decisions....that's what the stats indicate. Nothing I hate more than a debate over numbers, best they go play football with a calculator instead of boots.

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Post by Clandestino on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:39 pm

@sportsczy wrote:ESPN doesn't separate stats for starts and subs... they give goals and assists in total. So how did you do that? LaughingLaughingLaughing

And the TOTAL stats they have include preseason, friendlies and NT, which are entirely irrelevant to official competitions with Madrid Laughing

Why don't you link where you got your numbers if you don't mind. I don't want to start calling you bad names if it's unwarranted.

Well, I got them from here:
http://espnfc.com/player/_/id/46858/karim-benzema?cc=5739
http://espnfc.com/player/_/id/67310/gonzalo-higua%C3%ADn?cc=5739

I usually get them off AS and Marca, but since I needed the stats from CL I didn't feel the need to go on two sites to get them because this one has a nice overview quality for all official competitions .
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