Semi final: Germany vs Italy discussion

That statistic is entirely true but probably irrelevant, until a few days ago Spain had never beaten France :lucas :

The real reason why Italy come into this somewhat undervalued, 'without anygood individuals' and a Pirlo who no one expected to play at this level is because people just haven't watched Juventus this season frankly.

I don't blame them, it's because in that regard we were not in the highly accessible CL.

Truth is though Pirlo has been playing at a similar level week in week out all season long, infact I'd say he has played much better on many occasions last season.

Argument all along has been the 'inferiority' of Serie A as a competition, in as such that winning it in such a manner, or playing well in it is now worth nothing.

Dortmund take the bundesliga and thus have a team of GOAT's, Juve take Serie A without a frakking striker, unbeaten, with the best defensive record in Europe, third highest average possession and the most goal attempts created for that possession share...and all our players are sh** as a result...

Not EPL, La Liga or Bundesliga proven.

Having said that and back on topic, this German team outclasses this Italy side on paper, not least in the crazy depth of talent up top.

Will be a close game and a cracker, I can't wait, no shame to bowing out to this Germany side anyway.

"He [Pirlo] is having a bit of a renaissance. He is an outstanding footballer and a brilliant strategist. Man marking is useless with him because he drops deep so often," Low said in a press conference.


I wonder exactly what he means. I hope he isnt suggesting Ozil is free to just leave him alone with time and space to do as he pleases.

Of course, you dont want Ozil literally chasing him all around the pitch, but surely he has to stay goalside of him without the ball, regardless of where he goes?

@Mustachio:

I have tipped Italy to reach the final before the tournament, I even thought they'd top the group ahead of Spain.

There's one single reason to that, and it's similar to what you said, mate: while Italy might only have one ZOMG WTF superstar-style player in Pirlo, they do not have a single scrub in their team.

Germany might very well be the only other team with a squad as balanced as italys, every other team in the tournament has at least one position where it's forced to play a "meh" player - and with Germany you could probably make that point about the RB position even though Bender was a beast and Boateng didn't really screw up against Greece if you watch the slo-mo.


Italy is the same. They might not go into this match with the same big names they used to, or the same big names we do, but they have Pirlo, they have Buffon, and they have a team without scrubs.

No weak points is more important to me than having a couple standouts.
I'd rather be Italy than Portugal, or even Argentina.



So yeah this will be a tough-as-shit match. At least this year, Germany isn't fielding an obviously inferior side, like we did the last couple times we met Italy.

The Franchise wrote:"He [Pirlo] is having a bit of a renaissance. He is an outstanding footballer and a brilliant strategist. Man marking is useless with him because he drops deep so often," Low said in a press conference.


I wonder exactly what he means. I hope he isnt suggesting Ozil is free to just leave him alone with time and space to do as he pleases.

Of course, you dont want Ozil literally chasing him all around the pitch, but surely he has to stay goalside of him without the ball, regardless of where he goes?

Probably just mind games imo, someone will be on him. Not exclusively one player though, perhaps that ''honour'' will be shared.

Also I think Italy should be the ones being asked if they will man mark Ozil or not.

Superb Thread..So great to see so much cooperation and maturity between both the Germans and Italians in this thread and their NT fans likewise despite the intense rivalry between both teams.
Although it wouldnt have been the case if Sciacca or JNC were around

I hope to see the game end in the same fashion respectfully

May the best team win

VivaStPauli wrote:

No weak points is more important to me than having a couple standouts.
I'd rather be Italy than Portugal, or even Argentina.

Interesting. I personally don't think there is a side out there with no weak points, it's just a matter of finding out what it is and setting up in a way so that your weakness is not being exploited.

VivaStPauli wrote:@Mustachio:

I have tipped Italy to reach the final before the tournament, I even thought they'd top the group ahead of Spain.

There's one single reason to that, and it's similar to what you said, mate: while Italy might only have one ZOMG WTF superstar-style player in Pirlo, they do not have a single scrub in their team.

Germany might very well be the only other team with a squad as balanced as italys, every other team in the tournament has at least one position where it's forced to play a "meh" player - and with Germany you could probably make that point about the RB position even though Bender was a beast and Boateng didn't really screw up against Greece if you watch the slo-mo.


Italy is the same. They might not go into this match with the same big names they used to, or the same big names we do, but they have Pirlo, they have Buffon, and they have a team without scrubs.

No weak points is more important to me than having a couple standouts.
I'd rather be Italy than Portugal, or even Argentina.



So yeah this will be a tough-as-shit match. At least this year, Germany isn't fielding an obviously inferior side, like we did the last couple times we met Italy.

You know I'm seriously psyched for this game, and although it's kind of strange to say I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be that cut up if we lose.

I feel personally this is our 'level' really. Germany I think are worthy of challenging Spain to really settle who is the best side in Europe right now. It's not us, but of course the players won't roll over, Italy thrive on this kind of atmosphere and as almost always it's true we may not be packed with the most high profile players, but we are a good team with good players and a good coach.

I'm sure it will be a worthy semi between two heavyweights, end to end with chances and goals. Final will probbably pale in comparison. That's all I hope for.

:{Mr.Mustachio! wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:@Mustachio:

I have tipped Italy to reach the final before the tournament, I even thought they'd top the group ahead of Spain.

There's one single reason to that, and it's similar to what you said, mate: while Italy might only have one ZOMG WTF superstar-style player in Pirlo, they do not have a single scrub in their team.

Germany might very well be the only other team with a squad as balanced as italys, every other team in the tournament has at least one position where it's forced to play a "meh" player - and with Germany you could probably make that point about the RB position even though Bender was a beast and Boateng didn't really screw up against Greece if you watch the slo-mo.


Italy is the same. They might not go into this match with the same big names they used to, or the same big names we do, but they have Pirlo, they have Buffon, and they have a team without scrubs.

No weak points is more important to me than having a couple standouts.
I'd rather be Italy than Portugal, or even Argentina.



So yeah this will be a tough-as-shit match. At least this year, Germany isn't fielding an obviously inferior side, like we did the last couple times we met Italy.

You know I'm seriously psyched for this game, and although it's kind of strange to say I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be that cut up if we lose.

I feel personally this is our 'level' really. Germany I think are worthy of challenging Spain to really settle who is the best side in Europe right now. It's not us, but of course the players won't roll over, Italy thrive on this kind of atmosphere and as almost always it's true we may not be packed with the most high profile players, but we are a good team with good players and a good coach.

I'm sure it will be a worthy semi between two heavyweights, end to end with chances and goals. Final will probbably pale in comparison. That's all I hope for.

Italy have good players too. Cassano, Chiellini, De Rossi, Pirlo etc are experienced and are/can be WC.

Zealous wrote:

The Franchise wrote:"He [Pirlo] is having a bit of a renaissance. He is an outstanding footballer and a brilliant strategist. Man marking is useless with him because he drops deep so often," Low said in a press conference.


I wonder exactly what he means. I hope he isnt suggesting Ozil is free to just leave him alone with time and space to do as he pleases.

Of course, you dont want Ozil literally chasing him all around the pitch, but surely he has to stay goalside of him without the ball, regardless of where he goes?

Probably just mind games imo, someone will be on him. Not exclusively one player though, perhaps that ''honour'' will be shared.

Also I think Italy should be the ones being asked if they will man mark Ozil or not.

I don't agree guys. I think people underestimate how hard it is to shut down Pirlo. Only team to do it successfully last season was AC Milan, they had Emanueslson in the Trequartista role man marking him and also (crucially) enough defensively minded CM's to shut down his outballs in Vidal/Marchisio and positioning of the CF's in close proximity to the CB's. They shut him out, but by setting up that way sacrificed their own play and still couldn't win.

Pirlo can twist and turn one guy all night, he has not got to this point by being easily dispossessed. Stand of him and you make his job easier, it's true, but having one guy chasing him around, not least Ozil, is not going to shatter his game...

He will twist and play the ball to one of the Mezzali, or the CB's, reset the play and create himself the space in which to play. Plenty of teams have tried and failed to shut him down over the years; and if the Germans were to succeed in this regard, Marchisio and De Rossi hardly pass like they have cardboard boxes on their feet.

In anycase Germany need Ozil pulling the strings in attack, not wasting his legs chasing shadows about. Really as you say Zealous, it's Italy that should be considering how to counteract the Germans; probbably by playing Motta on Ozil behind the strikers.

Mustashio, Löw needs to play Reus to ease Özil's job. He plays in areas with almost no space Reus would also bomb Italy's rightwingback whoever he is. All of them didn't impress me at all ( Maggio being the worst of the lot). Lahm+Reus would be fun against their wingback
Also, Özil or whoever don't need to close down Pirlo literally. They just need to limit his options and exercise some moderate pressure. He won't have the space to reorganize vs. Germany, Mustashio. Germany will push very high up.

:{Mr.Mustachio! wrote:

Zealous wrote:

The Franchise wrote:"He [Pirlo] is having a bit of a renaissance. He is an outstanding footballer and a brilliant strategist. Man marking is useless with him because he drops deep so often," Low said in a press conference.


I wonder exactly what he means. I hope he isnt suggesting Ozil is free to just leave him alone with time and space to do as he pleases.

Of course, you dont want Ozil literally chasing him all around the pitch, but surely he has to stay goalside of him without the ball, regardless of where he goes?

Probably just mind games imo, someone will be on him. Not exclusively one player though, perhaps that ''honour'' will be shared.

Also I think Italy should be the ones being asked if they will man mark Ozil or not.

I don't agree guys. I think people underestimate how hard it is to shut down Pirlo. Only team to do it successfully last season was AC Milan, they had Emanueslson in the Trequartista role man marking him and also (crucially) enough defensively minded CM's to shut down his outballs in Vidal/Marchisio and positioning of the CF's in close proximity to the CB's. They shut him out, but by setting up that way sacrificed their own play and still couldn't win.

To stop Pirlo just press all of his targets. That way he'll struggle to find a pass and he'll make a mistake.

Pirlo can twist and turn one guy all night, he has not got to this point by being easily dispossessed. Stand of him and you make his job easier, it's true, but having one guy chasing him around, not least Ozil, is not going to shatter his game...

He will twist and play the ball to one of the Mezzali, or the CB's, reset the play and create himself the space in which to play.

In anycase Germany need Ozil pulling the strings in attack, not wasting his legs chasing shadows about. Really as you say, it's Italy that should be considering how to counteract the Germans; probbably by playing Motta on Ozil behind the strikers.

To stop Pirlo I think Germany just need to press the players he could pass to.

This game is gonnna be epic

I miss the 2006 squad though and that Del Piero upper 90 shot.....

:{Mr.Mustachio! wrote:

Zealous wrote:

The Franchise wrote:"He [Pirlo] is having a bit of a renaissance. He is an outstanding footballer and a brilliant strategist. Man marking is useless with him because he drops deep so often," Low said in a press conference.


I wonder exactly what he means. I hope he isnt suggesting Ozil is free to just leave him alone with time and space to do as he pleases.

Of course, you dont want Ozil literally chasing him all around the pitch, but surely he has to stay goalside of him without the ball, regardless of where he goes?

Probably just mind games imo, someone will be on him. Not exclusively one player though, perhaps that ''honour'' will be shared.

Also I think Italy should be the ones being asked if they will man mark Ozil or not.

I don't agree guys. I think people underestimate how hard it is to shut down Pirlo. Only team to do it successfully last season was AC Milan, they had Emanueslson in the Trequartista role man marking him and also (crucially) enough defensively minded CM's to shut down his outballs in Vidal/Marchisio and positioning of the CF's in close proximity to the CB's. They shut him out, but by setting up that way sacrificed their own play and still couldn't win.

Pirlo can twist and turn one guy all night, he has not got to this point by being easily dispossessed. Stand of him and you make his job easier, it's true, but having one guy chasing him around, not least Ozil, is not going to shatter his game...

He will twist and play the ball to one of the Mezzali, or the CB's, reset the play and create himself the space in which to play. Plenty of teams have tried and failed to shut him down over the years; and if the Germans were to succeed in this regard, Marchisio and De Rossi hardly pass like they have cardboard boxes on their feet.

In anycase Germany need Ozil pulling the strings in attack, not wasting his legs chasing shadows about. Really as you say Zealous, it's Italy that should be considering how to counteract the Germans; probbably by playing Motta on Ozil behind the strikers.

You're point about Pirlo is probably true which explains Lowe's stance.

It could be a non-issue anyway, if Germany have more possession they won't need to man mark Pirlo because he'll be too busy defending.

Also Ozil is a selfless player he'll stick to Pirlo all night if he's asked to even though it'll likely mean his impact on th eoffensive end will drop.

Immortal Babun wrote:Mustashio, Löw needs to play Reus to ease Özil's job. He plays in areas with almost no space Reus would also bomb Italy's rightwingback whoever he is. All of them didn't impress me at all ( Maggio being the worst of the lot). Lahm+Reus would be fun against their wingback
Also, Özil or whoever don't need to close down Pirlo literally. They just need to limit his options and exercise some moderate pressure. he won't have the space to reorganize vs. Germany Mustashio. Germany will push very high up.

Abate hopefully will be back for that game. I think he's a solid player to be honest. Reus and Lahm are both fantastic players on the overlap, but remember we are Italians. What makes you think you will have Lahm and Reus isolating Abate on a regular Basis? Marchisio/De Rossi will provide the immediate cover RCB will stay close as always to pile pressure on should Reus be able to walk through the 2-3 players surrounding him..

Italy in progression to the defensive phase and both tactically/positionally while in it are pretty masterfull. Even without the fantastic defensive individuals of the past.

High pressing in midfield is probably your best bet, but it I was Germany I'd want an extra man in CM for that, Italy will play narrow in the middle and with practically 4 CM's it will be pretty packed for just Khedira/Schweini. Another consideration is high pressing means high defensive line (susceptible to balls over the top) or space between the lines for someone like Cassano to drop off into. What I'm trying to say really is Italy will still cause you problems.

Unless Italy go 3-5-2 and surrender possession to play on the break, I'm seriously not sure Germany can dominate the midfield as you think they will.

I dont agree Pirlo cannot be man marked because he is "too good at twisting and turning out of trouble". I have seen him struggle under pressure and not have the quickness to get out of trouble.

I would urge you to go look at what Park did to him, and that was in Pirlo's prime.

I personally hope to see something like this:


With a 3-2 win for Italy. What ana amzing game this will be.

Zealous wrote:

You're point about Pirlo is probably true which explains Lowe's stance.

It could be a non-issue anyway, if Germany have more possession they won't need to man mark Pirlo because he'll be too busy defending.

Also Ozil is a selfless player he'll stick to Ozil all night if he's asked to even though it'll likely mean his impact on th eoffensive end will drop.

I have no doubt Ozil would give it his all, but it makes as much sense as getting Pirlo to man mark Ozil, probably the two most important creative forces on the pitch wearing each others shirts.

If Germany are really that insecure about letting Pirlo touch the ball play Khedira in Ozils role and a midfield who are just going to play to sterilise the midfield.

They should just play their game, like any other game, and endeavour to take the game by the scruff of the neck.

Italy will win

Also Mustachio i told you Italy would go far

Juve101 that lineup is way too attacking and Cassano is not a Trequartista..

I personally would go with Motta in the lineup cuz he offers more defensive stability.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Italy will win

Also Mustachio i told you Italy would go far

That means 200$ for me

Come on Mario eat that damn mushroom already

Tifoso Romanista wrote:[quote="Gre]

Also Mustachio i told you Italy would go far

That means 200$ for me

Come on Mario eat that damn mushroom already [/quote]

but which mario

Robbery wrote:

Tifoso Romanista wrote:[quote="Gre]

Also Mustachio i told you Italy would go far

That means 200$ for me

Come on Mario eat that damn mushroom already

but which mario [/quote]

poisoned mushroom for Mario gomez and healthy one for balotelli lol

The Franchise wrote:I dont agree Pirlo cannot be man marked because he is "too good at twisting and turning out of trouble". I have seen him struggle under pressure and not have the quickness to get out of trouble.

I would urge you to go look at what Park did to him, and that was in Pirlo's prime.

I agree 100%. It can be done with the right setup. As I said Milan shut Juve down entirely in the midfield by playing basically 4 DM's.

But Ozil and Park are poles apart mate. Putting a workhorse to stick like glue to Pirlo can limit him, even so what of De Rossi and Marchisio. They can still hurt Germany themselves, Pirlo is a massive loss for Italy, it will probbably force us to play exclusively on the break; but honestly we have players extremely adept for this kind of approach.

Germany would be inducing a stalemate by offering up Ozil for Pirlo. But it makes no sense, Ozil is Germany's attacking fulcrum and the man who can really open Italy up, if they can get him quality possession and territory he can stretch Italy to breaking point. Move the ball quick and you can hurt Italy.

Germany should try to pressure him I agree, he can be forced into making mistakes, but unless you make it your objective you won't snuff him out entirely, that's all I'm saying.

Low clearly knows not to attempt beating Italy at their own game.

Of course, Ozil and Park are not the same type of player at all. I agree with your post, just mentioning Pirlo is not unstoppable like Low seems to be saying.

If Germany didnt need Khedira further back he would be ideal. Obviously that hinders them further forward so overall its not a good idea.

As I said a few posts ago, its should be a even game possession wise. So its not like Ozil is going to tire himself out by playing defence the entire game. I think it would be irresponsible to allow Pirlo the sort of freedom other teams have done.

I would point to the Croatia game, in which at half time Modric was tasked with picking him up and he did so very well, without losing his own game in doing it.

The Franchise wrote:Of course, Ozil and Park are not the same type of player at all. I agree with your post, just mentioning Pirlo is not unstoppable like Low seems to be saying.

If Germany didnt need Khedira further back he would be ideal. Obviously that hinders them further forward so overall its not a good idea.

As I said a few posts ago, its should be a even game possession wise. So its not like Ozil is going to tire himself out by playing defence the entire game. I think it would be irresponsible to allow Pirlo the sort of freedom other teams have done.

I would point to the Croatia game, in which at half time Modric was tasked with picking him up and he did so very well, without losing his own game in doing it.

I think we are in agreement then, my mistake.

I've always said a good defence in fact starts with your strikers. Not so much as man marking, in that sense Low is right trying to take Pirlo out of the game entirely is not possible without sacrificing too much themselves. But yes surely he must instruct Ozil and Gomez to generally defend spaces to his front and rear and occasionally to close him down.

May actually work in forcing Italy wide, which is really not what we want to be doing with this formation.