If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by VivaStPauli on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:38 pm

@Tifoso Romanista wrote: hmm i cant help it but to mention Ozil is Originally from Turkey ,and Rooney came from Everton , i was hoping Barkley can make it too but dont know what happened to him

If you mean by that, that he was born in Gelsenkirchen, Germany, and his parents were born in Germany as well, and his grandparents are from Northern Turkey, then, yes, he is from Turkey.

By that logic though the Queen is really from Hannover and all white Englishman are basically Saxons and Vikings, so they should be equally divided between Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and maybe a couple to Ireland.

Didn't Romolus and Remus come from Greece to Italy as well? :X

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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by VivaStPauli on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:40 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:Carragher's comments are really interesting.

They remind me of something that has been in the back of my mind for some time.

Let's go back a few years - 2000 to 2004. I remember how I used to pity Germany for not being able to produce technically gifted players in enough numbers so as to match Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy, Netherlands, etc. That it's Germany who is now the world's envy and is considered the most complete squad at Euro 2012 is quite something. They have clearly shown that it can be done and hats off to them for that. You need the initiative and the patience. Carragher is spot on in his choice of the model to emulate and his belief that it can be done no matter how impossible it may seem.

We got there by "stealing" the Spanish and Dutch model, though, so the credit shouldn't go to us, I just think he mentions us because we implemented that model the fastest, but the Dutch and Spanish invented most parts of that, which we stole.

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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by DuringTheWar on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:01 pm

For a long time at academy level the most significant difference between the english system compared with the europeans and south americans has been to prefer from a young age physically mature kids that display the typical traits such as pace and strength. This is from a very young age, before many kids have actually matured physical, these kids that are generally more technically gifted tend to then just drop out of the system alltogether sadly. Then at around the age of 16-18 most of the kids that were physically mature from a younger age progress no further as they reach the limit of their ability to learn technically and tactically.
In the last two years or so however there has been a change in emphasis towards the players who show more technical promise. I know chelsea are doing very well with their academy, arsenal are also doing well.

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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by messixaviesta on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:16 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:
If you mean by that, that he was born in Gelsenkirchen, Germany, and his parents were born in Germany as well, and his grandparents are from Northern Turkey, then, yes, he is from Turkey.

By that logic though the Queen is really from Hannover and all white Englishman are basically Saxons and Vikings, so they should be equally divided between Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and maybe a couple to Ireland.

Didn't Romolus and Remus come from Greece to Italy as well? :X

Super post !!!
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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by messixaviesta on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:20 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:
We got there by "stealing" the Spanish and Dutch model, though, so the credit shouldn't go to us, I just think he mentions us because we implemented that model the fastest, but the Dutch and Spanish invented most parts of that, which we stole.

Interesting point. One more reason why I think he mentions you all is that you all were going through a dearth of technical players between 2000 and 2004 in a manner not so dissimilar to what is happening to England today while Spain and Holland were not really short in that department. So the idea is to say that it's possible to change the bleak present into a bright future if you want to and try to. I really liked the way he put it.
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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by messixaviesta on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:23 pm

Other than the point we are discussing perhaps we should consider one more. What happens when England do happen a produce a player of such technical quality? On Twitter I read a comment from a TV show presenter who said that if England had their own Pirlo then he would have been shunted to the left side to make space for others as was the case for Paul Scholes in the English national team not too long back.
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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by VivaStPauli on Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:59 pm

Well if England produced talent, they still wouldn't get any playtime between all the M'Vilas, Silvas, Podolskis, Matas and Balotellis their clubs love to buy. Unless youngsters get a proper shot at 1st team action in the Premier League, or move abroad, there really isn't much hope to be had.

And since Stoke still pays better wages to English players than the likes of Leverkusen, Lille, Sevilla, or Genoa would, why move abroad?

It's short-term money over everything else, basically. Having better academies is a step in the right direction, but it won't fix that. Anyone with less skill than Wheelchair will still not get any first team action.

And late bloomers will be f*cked. And most defensive players are late bloomers, or look at Schweinsteiger who had to become 25 and be moved to the center to become great. He'd been sold to Wigan in the PL long ago.

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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by The Franchise on Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:08 pm

Well I think me and Mole brushed on the issue a little. But we could discuss more.

England and especially English/UK managers love their 4411/442's like its the best thing since sliced bread. They stubbornly stick to it regardless of what they have.

Even Gascoigne, a pure number 10, forced out onto the left.

They need to be more open minded to other formations and systems. When they do that, at the ground level kids will be taught much more.

At Ajax, your forced to learn 3 positions out of the 343 (LB, RB, CB, DM, CM, AM, WING, ST). In England, no such thing exists and even if it did, it would be no DM, AM or even CM really seeing as the general perception of English midfielders should be running up and down in straight lines getting in the box and tackling on the edge of your own.
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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:16 pm

Only the top teams buy those sort of players Viva, the mid table teams and teams outside of the top 6 would still find the room for youngsters.....

In fact they do now, the problem is the culture and coaching is all wrong at grass roots atm.

It does'nt really matter where the player comes from as long as he makes it and i see no reason if they are good enough why they could'nt make it at the likes of Villa, Newcastle, Everton, Wigan, Stoke etc etc hell even Spurs and Arsenal have brought through quite a lot of players recently.

At the end of the day the national team will benefit, for example Rooney came through at Everton.

If we change the culture of youth football and mentality of kids along with improving how kids how coached i'm sure more talented kids will come through at the top level.

I dont agree the amount of foreigners in the league is the problem, there's plenty of foreigners in Spain, Italy, Germany etc etc too.

BTW Dani its funny you mentioned that because i just saw an interview with Glenn Hoddle talking about when he was manager he used a 3-5-2 system and how 4-4-2 will never be able to help you keep the ball among other things as much as a more fluid system would do.

I seem to remember Venables at Euro 96 using 3-5-2 too, apart from the things i already mentioned we do need to explore a number of different systems at youth level so the players can adapt to different systems and will actually allow our best players to shine and allow our play to more fluid.
It will be a long process but if we do it correctly, eventually you will see more technically gifted players in the future.

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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:08 am

@The Franchise wrote:Well I think me and Mole brushed on the issue a little. But we could discuss more.

England and especially English/UK managers love their 4411/442's like its the best thing since sliced bread. They stubbornly stick to it regardless of what they have.

Even Gascoigne, a pure number 10, forced out onto the left.

They need to be more open minded to other formations and systems. When they do that, at the ground level kids will be taught much more.

At Ajax, your forced to learn 3 positions out of the 343 (LB, RB, CB, DM, CM, AM, WING, ST). In England, no such thing exists and even if it did, it would be no DM, AM or even CM really seeing as the general perception of English midfielders should be running up and down in straight lines getting in the box and tackling on the edge of your own.

You are right dani. I didn't know they did this to Gascoigne as well which is too bad. Arguably England have not seen a player as talented as him after him.


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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by Eivindo on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:32 am

@VivaStPauli wrote:
@Zealous wrote:It's best of both worlds in La Liga. Barca and Madrid sign the superstars and the rest pump out the skilled youth because it's much cheaper to make your own good player :lucas :

Makes the league entertaining about twice a year only, though. Sad

About twice? I think twice is pretty accurate.
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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by The Franchise on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:46 am

Really? Pretty sure everyone here says the Classico's suck?

The best games have been both the big 2 vs the likes of Valencia, Bilbao and co.
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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by Le Samourai on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:55 am

The CDR 2nd leg is in my top 5 matches of the season though.

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Re: If England think radically and act now we can do a Germany- Jamie Carragher

Post by CBarca on Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:01 am

People only watch La Liga when Barca or Madrid play Sad

If you guys watch some of the top 8 teams play against each other, it's great. I'll admit I don't do it enough.

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