If Spain-Germany played at the Euros, who do you think would of won?

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Post by Onyx on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:08 pm

If Spain-Germany played at the Euros, who do you think would of won?
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Post by juventus101 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:19 pm

Spain. While i think Germany are the better team, they were struggling with injuries, constantly switching starters and formations, and overall just not on form. Spain, on the other hand, everything went their way, whether it was from luck or skill.

Now if they played each other in 2011, Germany wouldve won for sure in my opinion. They switched to possession style football right after the WC instead of counterattacking, and smacked up both the Netherlands and Brazil. They showed what they were really capable of, but right before the Euro they had a big dip in form. I think the Bayern contingent, with losing the CL final, really just couldnt put the broken pieces together in time.

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Post by Omniscient on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:36 pm

Germany are definitely not the better team, especially individually.

The CB pairing has been inconsistent for years. Schweinsteiger hasn't been anything more than average in the last 2 seasons. Muller's been declining since 2010, he doesn't hold a candle to anyone in Spain's squad. Podolski only looks great because he plays in in a very mediocre team, at the highest level he's only decent.

Gomez is a useless traffic cone who doesn't know what link-up play is. Pique would probably score more goals than him if he played ST for Bayern, with crosses being slinged in from all angles all day long.

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Post by rwo power on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:04 am

It would have depended on the line-up. With a classic Löw black-out: Spain. With a stroke of Löw genius: Germany.

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Post by juventus101 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:46 am

Schweinsteiger hasnt been anything more than average for 2 years? Wow, just WOW. Just put in a series of midfield masterclasses against Basel, Marseille, Madrid, and Chelsea, and ended up losing the final the penalties, which is all luck. Not to mention he only just became a CM about 3 seasons ago, so youre saying he had one good season as a CM and thats it? HA. Hes been the bsst midfielder in the world this year in my opjnion and was hampered by an injury throughout the Euro, which i figure is what youre basing your opinions on which is laughable.

Muller has never hit that form again, but has nit.been declining. The problem at Bayern is rhat Kroos was in the form of his life this season, and wouod bench alot of CAMs. Podolski is avergae at the top level? Thats why he has roughly a goal every other game for Germany since hd was introduced in 2004, and is still untouchable in my opjnion. Hes clearly nowhere nsar his best when pushed out wide on the left, but still a great player. And i got news for you, its HARDER to perform for practically a one man team like Koln (when youre that guy), than to perform for a big team with plenty of other excellent players to link up with. And Gomez is the highest scorer in the world only after Messi and Ronaldo, so i dont know what youre gstting that from. My guess would be you havent watched any of these guys until the Euro and are judging them based on that.

The defense has been pretty much figured out for a while. Its Hummels, Boateng, Lahm, and one of Badstuber or Mertesacker. Badstuber is definitely in better form, with him and Boateng forming one of the best defenses in Europe last season, whereas Mertesacker was inconsistent for Arsenal when he did play and then was injured for the rest of the season. So....i dont think this would be a problem.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:56 am

I'm almost sad this match didn't happen as it would shut up all the German hype surrounding their national team, which in spite of being humiliated by a team that was very close to being knocked down on the group phases, has somehow not declined that much.

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Post by Omniscient on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:48 am

@juventus101 wrote:Schweinsteiger hasnt been anything more than average for 2 years? Wow, just WOW. Just put in a series of midfield masterclasses against Basel, Marseille, Madrid, and Chelsea, and ended up losing the final the penalties, which is all luck.

Yes, because the midfields of Basel, Marseille, and Chelsea are obviously top-class. He was good against Madrid, nothing more, nothing less. It says a lot about him if the Madrid games were the highlight of Schweinsteiger's season.

Not to mention he only just became a CM about 3 seasons ago, so youre saying he had one good season as a CM and thats it? HA. Hes been the bsst midfielder in the world this year in my opjnion

LOL

and was hampered by an injury throughout the Euro, which i figure is what youre basing your opinions on which is laughable.

Muller has never hit that form again, but has nit.been declining. The problem at Bayern is rhat Kroos was in the form of his life this season, and wouod bench alot of CAMs. Podolski is avergae at the top level? Thats why he has roughly a goal every other game for Germany since hd was introduced in 2004, and is still untouchable in my opjnion. Hes clearly nowhere nsar his best when pushed out wide on the left, but still a great player. And i got news for you, its HARDER to perform for practically a one man team like Koln (when youre that guy), than to perform for a big team with plenty of other excellent players to link up with. And Gomez is the highest scorer in the world only after Messi and Ronaldo

Irrelevant, watch him play instead of looking at his inflated stats and witness the uselessness.

, so i dont know what youre gstting that from. My guess would be you havent watched any of these guys until the Euro and are judging them based on that.

The defense has been pretty much figured out for a while. Its Hummels, Boateng, Lahm, and one of Badstuber or Mertesacker.

By inconsistent, I'm referring to the performance, not the lineup.

Badstuber is definitely in better form, with him and Boateng forming one of the best defenses in Europe last season, whereas Mertesacker was inconsistent for Arsenal when he did play and then was injured for the rest of the season. So....i dont think this would be a problem.

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Post by juventus101 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:16 am

Watch Podolski and Muller play? Dont believe inflated stats? Im a Koln supporter! I watch EVERY GAME. Ive been to a few games live even! I know exactly how good Podolski is! I also watched most of Bayerns games this season as overall im a big Bundesliga supporter.

Schweinsteiger put in master classes against every team.hes played. He had a rough season this season through injury, but he still had plenty of top notch performances when he was fully healthy. Its a well known fact that hes the most complete midfielder in the world, and he showed that against Chelsea, who do have a very strong midfield. Ramires, Lampard, and Meireles are all great players. And he was good against Madrid? Wow, go watch those games again. Schweinsteiger DOMINATED both legs, the same Madrid that just beat everyones beloved Barca in between the to games.

Yea, the picks were inconsistent. As i said, neither Mertesacker nor Badstuber really nailed down their starting place. But they both still performed very well when they did start, so it doesnt make much of a difference. Thats why neither could hold down that spot alongside Boateng (at RB), Lahm, and Hummels, cuz they both would perform well.


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Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:25 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'm almost sad this match didn't happen as it would shut up all the German hype surrounding their national team, which in spite of being humiliated by a team that was very close to being knocked down on the group phases, has somehow not declined that much.

alfred, I very much doubt people will hype Germany any more. Their best chance was this time when most people considered them favorites even ahead of Spain and we all saw what happened. Now instead what we are left with is a promising and talented team that is missing something vital that makes all the difference between winners and losers. I don't think people will take them that seriously for WC 2014 with several teams being given more of a chance than them from now on. Also Jogi Low is like a rich man's Claudio Ranieri. He will build the foundations of a team very well but he will perhaps not win anything really big. If all fairness considerations are to be set aside and we go by pure ruthlessness then this is the right time for Germany to replace Low with an outright winning coach to give themselves the best chance at WC 2014.



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Post by VivaStPauli on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:50 am

With Löw at the helm, Spain would've won.

We could've been the better team, but considering we threw our own game plan out the window like a 3rd rate pub team against Italy already, and stopped trying to dictate the game...

We should be the ones the other team has to adapt to. We should just play our shtick. Possession, counter-attacking, we got it all. Yet we chose to sacrifice our width against Italy for no good reason, and went down to the two good chances they had.

We demonstrated against Greece what we're capable of with proper linkup play and proper wide players, yet we threw all that out the window when we met the opponents we really needed both against.

Same as the WC2010, when we stopped playing our game. We don't need to play reactively, and we're worse when we try to do it.

Löw screwed the pooch twice now, the 2010 one I was willing to shrug off due to inexperience, Müllers unfair 2nd yellow etc etc, but this time around we had a fully fit squad against an Italy side that never scored from open play, and we got manhandled.

We could've beaten Italy, not easily maybe, but decisively, they were certainly weaker than Portugal or Holland this year, yet Löw chose this match to remove our biggest strengths from the field, and play with no width and Gomez up front. Bravo. Idiot.

The team we played against Greece could've beaten Spain. I dare say it probably would have beaten Spain, even.

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Post by harhar11 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:44 am

Easily Spain, even at the WC where Germany were at their best they got outplayed by Spain then later at this EURO they got outplayed by Italy who got murdered by Spain...

@juventus101 wrote:Schweinsteiger hasnt been anything more than average for 2 years? Wow, just WOW. Just put in a series of midfield masterclasses against Basel, Marseille, Madrid, and Chelsea, and ended up losing the final the penalties, which is all luck. .

I will just talk about Madrids midfield because Omniscient has already talked about the others. But Real Madrids midfields gets dominated by smaller teams as well. Sure this season they have been better but there are still some games where they struggle to dominate the ball and still win games by 5-0.



Last edited by harhar11 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by juventus101 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:15 pm

What people fail to realize was that Germany were never at their best through this Euro. They narrowly beat a Netherlands side in the middle of a meltdown. They narrowly beat Denmark and Portugal. They got beat by France and Switzerland befofe the Euros. Schweinsteiger was fighting through an injury through the whole tournament and Klose was just getting back from a 6 month long injury. Podolski seemed to have his mjnd on other things and Muller wasnt starting for Bayern anynore by the end of the season. This was not the same Germany that was scoring goals for fun against Brazil and the Netherlands in 2011. Thats when they were at their best. If Gernany-Spain happenned ag the Euro, Spain wouldve won. If they were both at their best though, Germany is stronger and wouldve won.

And Real Madrid have an extremely strong midfield. Domjnating Alonso and Khedira is very impressive. And thats what Schweinsteiger did. He also did it AT the Bernabeu, and was even better in Munich. This is also the same Madrid tean that ha just beaten Barca on the weekebd in bdtween the two CL games. Be also dominated Chelseas midfield which is also very strong. Thd only team Schweinsteiger and Bayern ever seem to have trouble with is Dortmund for some reason. Though Dortmund alsi presses better than any team in the world in my opinion.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:23 pm

That's a ludicrous argument. Leaving aside the fact that Spain didn't play their best until the match against Italy, if Spain were at their best not only would they have been playing forwards making runs to open the game for their midfielders to exploit, but they would also have Puyol and Villa, which would give Germany even less of a chance than they already had.

Not to mention that you're judging Germany's best through friendlies? Since when are friendlies an accurate picture of the ability of a national team? Argentina beat Germany 1-0 before the WC and then were handed their ass back to them 0-4 at the WC, with the first elevens changing very little.

@JD: Clearly as you can see in the above post there are still people overrating Germany. I agree that they need a change in management to fix it, as Low has been responsible in 2008, 10 and 12 for their defeats making the same mistake: changing tactics to a more conservative approach that did not suit his team (iirc, in 08 as assistant he was in charge of tactics). Germany will definitely have one of the strongest squads in the 2014 world cup so they will be taken seriously, and deservedly so, but it's the people that continuously claim they are superior to Spain that get under my skin, when they have nothing to show for it.

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Post by Adit on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:25 pm

No they wouldnt have. They are getting dominated in each big games because opponent is better simple as that. The logic of ''if we played against spain like we did against greece '' doesnt make sense because Spain will not let you play like that.

Italy owned Germany's midfield ,it is not just germany sucking but Italy being the better team. Germany are top 3 international team in the world but they are far far far from the level of Spain.

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Post by Onyx on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:27 pm

A lot of average La liga teams dominate our midfield. :coffee:
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Post by VivaStPauli on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:36 pm

@BC: In 2008 Löw was already head coach, and no coach in the world could have saved that trainwreck of a team, we had so many injuries we were playing Fritz as a winger opposite Schweinsteiger, having Ballack and Lahm on form was the only good thing about that squad, I don't blame Löw for that one.

But in 2010 and 2012 Löws conservative approach killed us. And if we do it again, we'll lose again, it's not even that we don't have the players for it, but we never trained for it. If we're going to play defensively, we need to be better at defending set-pieces and shutting down counters.

Or we could just attack and outscore our opponents like we always did when we played well, FFS. Löw had his shot, but three tournaments without a trophy, okay, that could be excused, but the last two times we went out he killed our entire game. He just seems to get scared when it really counts. We need someone more ballsy.

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Post by juventus101 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:38 pm

Why wouldnt friendlies matter? The teams are still coming out to play, its not like it s a charity match or something. They might not give it 110% like they would in a tournament, but theyre still gonna try.

Now i dont understand how you can say Germany have nothing to show for it. Spain bdat Germany 1-0 through a defensive tactics mistake, and Germany have onky gotten better since then, whereas it could be argued that Spain have gotten worse. Xavi, Villa, Puyol, etc are not as good as they were 2 years ago. Spain beat the Netherlands 1-0 in the WC final, and only didnt get beat because Robben choked with his finishing, and then a couple months later Germany recked the Netherlands. Even now during the Euro Germany bdat the Netherlands more comfortably than Spain did in 2010, and Germany was off form in the Euro. I still believe an on form Germany is the best nationak side in the world.

Im an italian through and through, Italy comes first, but while Italy played beautifully, Germany were also not on forn the whole tournament. Go watch any game from this Euro, evsn the Greece game, compared to the game in 2011 suxh as against Netherlands or Brazil. Totally different. Also, the Itaky side that played against Spain was totally dufferent than the one against Germany. Against Germany they were full of confidence, against Spain it looked they didnt shiw uo. Like they didnt want to be there. Anyone who watpched those games arefully can tell that.

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Post by Adit on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:46 pm

Again the 'off form' argument is laughable at best.

Spain has players who almost always will step up in the right time and in the right place.

While Germany sucks in crucial moments because their players are not on the same level as spanish players ,simple as that.

It is not lowes fault Hummels is a inconsistent defender or Badstubber is as slow as a snail. I agree lowe's attacking tactics sucked big time but defensive mistake cost them the game.

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Post by VivaStPauli on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:50 pm

Every defense will have a lapse or two over the course of a game, all goals but the most perfect ones can be traced back to defensive mistakes.

Hummels doesn't suddenly get to be shit from one day to the other, we gave up our midfield dominance through ridiculous tactics, and that's what cost us.

Our players are objectively good enough to beat anything. And even if Schweinsteiger and Klose came back from injury, we could've replaced both of them, and properly, Löw just chose not to.

We're basically as good as Spain, and our squad is deeper. We're just coached by a wimp, and I assume now Löws cowardice will have managed to make our players scared of important matches... :X

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Post by kiranr on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:33 pm


Don't agree that German first eleven is as good as Spain's at the current level.

Schweini, Khedira, Ozil, Reus, Podolski and are not as good as the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Alonso and Silva.
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Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:39 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:@JD: Clearly as you can see in the above post there are still people overrating Germany. I agree that they need a change in management to fix it, as Low has been responsible in 2008, 10 and 12 for their defeats making the same mistake: changing tactics to a more conservative approach that did not suit his team (iirc, in 08 as assistant he was in charge of tactics). Germany will definitely have one of the strongest squads in the 2014 world cup so they will be taken seriously, and deservedly so, but it's the people that continuously claim they are superior to Spain that get under my skin, when they have nothing to show for it.

I am very surprised alfred. For me the hype around this Germany team is now dead and buried and I will take them seriously only after the likes of Schweinsteiger and Lahm are no longer around.

In 08 Jogi Low was the head coach. Only in 06 was he Klinsmann's assistant.

The truth though is that I don't think it's totally Low's fault. This generation of Germans have more technical ability than some of the German teams of the past have had but they lack what has been Germany's greatest quality in football history - their mental strength. We have grown up on sayings like 'the Germans never say die' and 'write off the Germans at your own peril'. Would you ever use them for the current team? Goal.com's Clark Whitney was right when he said before the Euro began that the biggest problem facing Germany is the loser mentality of players like Schweinsteiger and Lahm that they have shown many times in the past including this year's UCL final. That was one of the best examples you will ever see of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

As for being superior to Spain, to me those claims sound exactly what you called them - ludicrous. Spain were missing two of their five best players in their era of dominance. Besides as a Spain supporter it's teams like Portugal that worry me - teams that will especially set out to break our play and not let the passing game settle or teams that will just park the bus and allow no football to happen. Germany play exactly the kind of game that my team thrives on - an open attacking game. Xaviesta had Pirlo for dinner that night and Ozil in comparison will be less than what they are capable of having for breakfast. As for how much chance I give Germany against Spain, the answer is there in my signature.

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Post by juventus101 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:29 pm

Loser mentality? What are you talking about? Schweinsteiger is clutch as hell. He completely domjnated the CL final and they ended up losing on penalties, which is all luck. Gimme a *bleep* break with this bullshit, its not like Bayern went down and just cried the game out. They dominated the game and lost on PKs. Also, Hummels inconsistent? You realize before the Italy game, he did not commit a single foul the entire tournament.

Starting XI-wise, theyre about even (from most to least defensive)
Khedira>Busquets, Schweinsteiger>Alonso, Xavi>Kroos, Ozil>Iniesta, Gotze=Silva, Fabregas=Reus. Didnt use Podolski, Klose, Gomez, or Muller cuz theyre so different than the Spanish players its hard to compare. I would take Podolski or any of those 3 actually over any Spanish forward though, except an on form David Villa. But Germany alsi has more depth is all areas.

And i agree about the conservative tactucs by Lowe being what costed Germany in 2010 for sure. Thdy were a strong counterattacking team but Lowes tactics were eay too conservative for them an it costed them. Lowe is a great coach, but hes gotten it wrong a few times and it has costed them.

And why us the off forn argument laughable? Did you know that before the Euro they lost 2 games in a row, to France and Switzerland, which is thd first time they lost 2 games in a row in many many years. Or the fact that they conceded 5 goals to switzerland. The onky game they won convincingly during the Eueo was against Greece, hut that was a mismatch. Before the Euro, in 2011 specifically, the won convincly against a strong Netherlands side and a strong Brazil side. TIn the world cup even they were more of a counterattacking team than now and they destroyed Argentina and England. But now they lose 2 consecutive games to an admittedly good France side but then Switzerland? Gimme a break. Its pretty obvious they were off form. The Bayern contingent also had something to do with that, with them losing the CL final and everything on pebalties.

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Post by harhar11 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:11 pm

@juventus101 wrote:Why wouldnt friendlies matter? The teams are still coming out to play, its not like it s a charity match or something. They might not give it 110% like they would in a tournament, but theyre still gonna try.

Now i dont understand how you can say Germany have nothing to show for it. Spain bdat Germany 1-0 through a defensive tactics mistake, and Germany have onky gotten better since then, whereas it could be argued that Spain have gotten worse. Xavi, Villa, Puyol, etc are not as good as they were 2 years ago. Spain beat the Netherlands 1-0 in the WC final, and only didnt get beat because Robben choked with his finishing, and then a couple months later Germany recked the Netherlands. Even now during the Euro Germany bdat the Netherlands more comfortably than Spain did in 2010, and Germany was off form in the Euro. I still believe an on form Germany is the best nationak side in the world.

Im an italian through and through, Italy comes first, but while Italy played beautifully, Germany were also not on forn the whole tournament. Go watch any game from this Euro, evsn the Greece game, compared to the game in 2011 suxh as against Netherlands or Brazil. Totally different. Also, the Itaky side that played against Spain was totally dufferent than the one against Germany. Against Germany they were full of confidence, against Spain it looked they didnt shiw uo. Like they didnt want to be there. Anyone who watpched those games arefully can tell that.

Friendlies doesnt matter simply because alot of teams tries new tactics/players and players generally doesnt play to their 100%, the only friendlies that matter somewhat are rivarlies...

And as people have told you if both team were at their best form and had no injury then I cant see how Germany could beat Spain. Remember Spain were neither at their best form this Euro and Villa and Puyol were injured with Torres out of form, Xavi out of form until the final etc and they still won the Euro...

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Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:12 pm

By loser mentality I meant that they have been on the losing end of too many major finals and semi finals. It's psychological. When you lose that many the chances of your ever winning one decrease. As many have said before including the one and only Der Kaiser the present Bayern and German teams lack leaders. They don't have the players to turn to in times of adversity. If Germany want to win a major tournament they must try to find another Lothar Matthaus.

Since you said Ozil>Iniesta, I won't bother to read the rest of your comments simply because I don't see much of a point of getting into a debate or discussion with someone, with whom I so fundamentally disagree on the basic essence of football. Actually as far as I am concerned Iniesta>=Pirlo.


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Post by harhar11 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:34 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:By loser mentality I meant that they have been on the losing end of too many major finals and semi finals. It's psychological. When you lose that many the chances of your ever winning one decrease. As many have said before including the one and only Der Kaiser the present Bayern and German teams lack leaders. They don't have the players to turn to in times of adversity. If Germany want to win a major tournament they must try to find another Lothar Matthaus.

Since you said Ozil>Iniesta, I won't bother to read the rest of your comments simply because I don't see much of a point of getting into a debate or discussion with someone, with whom I so fundamentally disagree on the basic essence of football. Actually as far as I am concerned Iniesta>=Pirlo.


He also said götze=silva and reus=fabregas :facepalm:

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