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Post by stevieg8 Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:39 am

I don't expect anyone in the general section to read a post this long, but I put some effort in and thought I'd post it here too.



MJGunner wrote:
Arsenal had the legal right to speak to Suarez and sign him if he agreed but Liverpool just blocked the move and 'gambled' on Arsenal not taking them to court.

But with his new contract, the old clause is obsolete.
The bolded section is the wording of an Arsenal twitter feed, the quotes that are being reported don't include anything about Arsenal taking Liverpool to court and I would be absolutely shocked to hear that the full answer made a reference. That's because Arsenal has almost no recourse here, they never would've been able to take Liverpool to court regardless, and I'm sure Henry knows that. As they weren't a party to the contract, the only thing they could do is sue for damages, which would be fairly difficult to quantify in a court of law. The only person that could really take action here is Luis, and he chose not to over the summer (you'll remember, following the advice of the PFA after they reviewed the contract).

Anyway, I work with contract law 70 hours a week, so I'm going to address this once and then try to move on - everybody read and pay close attention, I don't want to have to repeat myself. Two disclaimers: (a) my understanding and experience is that UK and US contract law are incredibly similar, but any minor differences which impact this post are probably beyond my knowledge, feel free to correct me where necessary; and (b) without actually being able to review the contract, we can only try to infer the details from the facts we do know, which are as follows:

1. Per Henry's quote, there was some form of 40m release clause in Suarez's contract.
2. Arsenal bid 40m+1.
3. Liverpool did not grant Arsenal the right to negotiate with Suarez.
4. The PFA, a body dedicated to ensuring that the contracts of players are fairly written and enforced, advised Suarez not to pursue legal action.
5. Suarez did not pursue legal action.

Most contracts in any field, but particularly those in football, include a form of confidentiality clause which would make it a breach of contract for the employee to disclose the terms. In event of a breach of contract, the offending party loses their legal protections and rights to recourse under the contract. If this happens and the employee attempts to enforce the contract through litigation, whether there was an initial breach by the employee would be subject to the review of a judge, so there's some wiggle room on both sides - everybody needs to estimate whether their case would be strong enough for court and weigh that chance against the cost.

The complication here is that the MO in European football is to treat contracts with somewhat less respect than typically afforded them in other spheres. Despite managers mentioning players in interviews, more leaks during transfer season than the Titanic, and agents openly referencing (and sometimes inventing) teams' interest, how often do you hear about tapping up restrictions actually being enforced? The very nature of the transfer market regularly leads teams to violate contract terms.

So Arsenal operated the way the market typically operates - they, most likely through Guardiola, learned the terms of the release clause, and bid enough to activate it. Their one mistake is that the precise nature of their bid provided clear evidence of a breach of contract on Suarez's part - someone in his camp provided a competitor with confidential terms. Arsenal's approach was just the way everyone operates.

Well there's one problem - it's been reported both that one of the major motivating factors in FSG entering the Premier League was the FFP proposals, and also that John Henry has been disappointed in the results of those measures. European football is set up in an anti-competitive system, and Henry saw FFP as a step towards changing that. To put it lightly, this hasn't happened.

So this time, when the result was going to be losing his top player before a pivotal season, Henry saw he had a legal right (due to Suarez's breach of contract) to stand his ground and took advantage of it. This decision has a number of cons - by not following the unwritten rules of the market and accepting the bid, Henry potentially hurt business relationships with both a) Arsenal and b) Suarez, who both would have been aware of Liverpool's decision and the underpinning argument months ago. What we can be certain is not a con is the risk of legal action from Suarez - it'd be tough to find a judge that would rule in his favor, and you can be sure that both FSG's and Suarez's legal teams knew that and said as much.

So now we ask why John Henry chose to disclose this information, which could spread the damage to relationships with other clubs (who now will think Liverpool aren't playing by the unspoken rules) and other players, both in our own dressing room and with other teams (who now will think Liverpool might not respect their wishes if they want to move).

Well, the timing of the statements answers that - Suarez has reupped and seems genuinely happy in Liverpool, so it's doubtful other players in the LFC dressing room are going to be too upset by this (if they hadn't known already). Additionally, Henry probably WANTS the other teams to know Liverpool isn't playing by the rules - if you don't respect the contracts we have with our players, we will not do business with you. It's a shot across the bow before this transfer season that we will only sell when we want to, unless we have absolutely no other legal options.

Additionally, it sends a message to FIFA and UEFA from one of their owners that the system needs to be fixed. It's possible this one statement doesn't do anything, but the location he gave the quotes is fairly aggressive. The Sloan Conference is an academic conference which is attended by many of the top minds in American sports - GMs, owners, reporters, media executives, and so on. Bringing up these issues in this forum could scare off potential American investment, both in the form of media (new fans) and capital (new owners).

In summary, John Henry's statements will send a message both to competitors and the overseeing body, without having a negative impact on the morale of players or the legal situation in question. Seems like a fairly shrewd move.

And no, neither Arsenal or Suarez will be able to do anything about this.

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Post by Red Alert Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:55 am

Great post. Smile

Additionally, Henry probably WANTS the other teams to know Liverpool isn't playing by the rules - if you don't respect the contracts we have with our players, we will not do business with you. It's a shot across the bow before this transfer season that we will only sell when we want to, unless we have absolutely no other legal options.

Think this part is the whole reason he's brought it up; because even if we are in the CL next season, Suarez will be hot property in the summer. It's basically a warning off potential suitors come the end of the season.

But there was no buy out clause. There could of been a "gentlesman agreement" where we had to talk to the team that offered over 40m, but we didn't necessary have to sell. So we as a club didn't really break any rules. The PFA said this after all.

JWH didn't go into much detail of the context here, and I'm certain he's just trying to get under the skins of Arsenal/Wenger right now, because they would have won the league if they did acquire Luis' services in the summer.
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Post by mr-r34 Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:00 pm

Brilliant bloody post, thanks for the effort mate, it didn't go wasted.
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Post by Curtinho Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:57 pm

Yep, just wanted to pile on here and say amazing post. Great depth and detail and very informative.

 :bow: 
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Post by stevieg8 Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:15 am

Thanks guys - I'm glad you liked it.

@RA, I'm going to sleep soon so not going to try to find the quotes. Did the PFA say there was no clause, or did they just say he didn't have a case? I thought it was the latter; if it's the former, things become a little more clouded for me.
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Post by McAgger Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:19 am

Stev here it is

But Taylor, whose organisation has been in touch with both player and club in an attempt to resolve the dispute, says that Liverpool have only agreed to negotiate with any club making a bid of more than £40 million.

He told the Press Association: "If you are going to have a supposed buy-out clause, it should be that - but it is different as it says [that] if there is no qualification for the Champions League and if there is a minimum offer of £40 million, then the parties will get around the table to discuss things. But it does not say the club has to sell.

"It quite clearly states £40 million is a minimum offer for discussions, but it becomes really difficult with such clauses. There is a 'good faith' clause in relation to serious discussions but I can’t say it is a cast-iron buy-out clause.

"Luis is one of our members and we want to be supportive. However, he may well have thought such an offer would trigger a move."

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1516468/pfa-deny-liverpool-forced-sell-luis-suarez?cc=5901
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Post by stevieg8 Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:36 am

Interesting. I'll have to think about that.

Regardless, if the PFA said there's no basis then you can be sure there's no basis, regardless of any quotes John Henry makes. They're the only party that would benefit from a legal battle over this.
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Post by Red Alert Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:51 am

Nothing will evolve out of this.

Many believe JWH has been misquoted, who knows.

Suarez has signed a new contract and is happy; that's all that matters. He was the only one that COULD of taken this to court, but he clearly chose not to do this in the summer and decided to stay put; and it's paid off for both him and the club.

The only reason Arsenal is bitter about this right now is because they're showing (common) signs of their last few years of bottling it and are trying to distract their form since the start of Februray, I think.
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Post by McAgger Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:00 am

Suarez only needs 3 goals to beat Torres' tally in the league for us :bow:
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Post by Red Alert Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:41 am

He has the better record too if he does it in the next 2 games. hmm
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Post by iftikhar Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:22 am

Red Alert wrote:He has the better record too if he does it in the next 2 games. hmm 

He would have an even better record of propelling Liverpool to league title.  bounce 
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Post by Red Alert Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:49 am

Let's hope he can do it then. You know, for Luis' sake. Razz drinking 
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Post by Curtinho Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:57 pm

He needs 8 goals in the last 10 games in order to break the PL record for goals in a season of 31 in 38 games.

With our upcoming schedule I've broken them down into games where I think he will have a good chance to score, where he will have a decent chance to score, and where he will have a hard time scoring (I've also included in brackets how many he's scored against each team already this season):

Good Chance:
A - Cardiff (2)
H - Sunderland (2)
A - West Ham (2)
A - Norwich (4)
A - Crystal Palace (1)
H - Newcastle (0)

Decent chance:
A - Manchester United (DNP)
H - Tottenham (2)

Hard time:
H - Manchester City (0)
H - Chelsea (0)

Sooooooo...it's not unrealistic at all, in my opinion, for Suarez to not only break the record, but shatter it. I'm excited to see what he will do!
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Post by iftikhar Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:55 pm

A - Norwich (4)
 drunken 
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Post by McAgger Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:05 pm

Had Suarez taken all of our penalties this season (and presumably score all) he already would've beaten the 31 goals record.

We've had 8 penalties in the league, 7 scored by Gerrard and 1 missed by Sturridge.
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Post by Art Morte Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:10 pm

I wouldn't go to that penalty iffing. Gerrard should take our penalties and that's it.
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Post by Curtinho Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:40 pm

Suarez seems pretty content to let Gerrard take the penalties. The fact that he's got 24 goals with no penalties is actually amazing.
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Post by iftikhar Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:20 pm

The fact that he's got 24 goals with no penalties is actually amazing.


Soldado  rofl 
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Post by Red Alert Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:36 am

The best individual ever season in the PL came from Thierry Henry when he had 24 goals and 23 assists. (47 score involvements)

Luis Suarez currently has 24 goals and 10 assists with 10 games to go. (34 score involvements)
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Post by Helmer Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:58 pm

@RA, that does not involve the number of penalties he has won for us. I am not sure how many Henry had won for Arsenal but winning those penalties is surely for me direct involvement in the particular penalty scored. I think he has already won 5.
Looking at El Cujo's list, he will surely break the ducks against big teams in the remaining fixtures.

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Post by Curtinho Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:18 pm

Red Alert wrote:The best individual ever season in the PL came from Thierry Henry when he had 24 goals and 23 assists. (47 score involvements)

Luis Suarez currently has 24 goals and 10 assists with 10 games to go. (34 score involvements)

He did that in 37 games, of course.

Suarez has played 23 games so far which is 1.47 score involvements per game for Suarez vs. 1.27 score involvements per game for Henry (not including penalties earned).

Keep your eyes peeled folks, we're witnessing what is very likely the best form any player has ever had in the PL before.
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Post by Red Alert Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:22 pm

Penalty "wins" don't count as assists although they do count as 'score involvements' I guess.

I'm solely talking about the most goals AND assists though.

With all that said, Henry took penalties for Arsenal. (I'm not sure how many of those 24 goals were from the spot though.)
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Post by McAgger Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:56 am

Luisito - Page 11 1530491_738817566152988_883239627_n
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Post by Red Alert Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:26 am

"I think I'm more an angel than a demon. It's very difficult to have that image. I avoid giving interviews because I'm shy. I pay attention to what I say," Suarez told TF1.

Has Luis sold his soul to the devil everytime he steps onto the pitch? Suspect
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Post by Helmer Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:40 am

scratch

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Post by McAgger Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:39 pm

Luisito - Page 11 13310653354_044510941b_h
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