If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by BarcaKizz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:33 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:If we're going to be talking about tactical options how about the formation of the moment, 3-5-2? I think it's a much worthier experiment with a 3 man backline than the 3-4-3. It wouldn't hurt the midfield (or even alter it), with Alba and Alves we have two wingbacks for it, Villa and Sanchez both play better centrally so we would see their best version as well. If we're ever short on forwards and have enough CBs (the opposite to our current situation, I know) it could be a successful formation for us. Only problem I can see is that there wouldn't be the overlap of the inside forwards and the full backs and perhaps if Messi drops down too deep it would clog the midfield.

Only thing is its a long way off a 4-3-3 whereas I feel a 4-2-3-1 is a subtle change the players could pull of quickly. Like I was saying, not really intent on wasting time mastering some completely different formation when we want to stick with 4-3-3.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by barca 2011 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:02 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:If we're going to be talking about tactical options how about the formation of the moment, 3-5-2? I think it's a much worthier experiment with a 3 man backline than the 3-4-3. It wouldn't hurt the midfield (or even alter it), with Alba and Alves we have two wingbacks for it, Villa and Sanchez both play better centrally so we would see their best version as well. If we're ever short on forwards and have enough CBs (the opposite to our current situation, I know) it could be a successful formation for us. Only problem I can see is that there wouldn't be the overlap of the inside forwards and the full backs and perhaps if Messi drops down too deep it would clog the midfield.

-----------------------valdes------------------
--------puyol----------pique----------bartra
dani----------------busquets---------------alba
-------------xavi------------------iniesta--------
------------------messi--------------------------
---------------------------villa/sanchez-----

interesting... I wonder how it'd stack up against the 3-4-3 which has its ifs.

Also, to franchise I agree with the if aint it broke dont fix it attitude but these are hypothetical what ifs. The 4-3-3 has stood the test of time for a reason. its just interesting to look at the options.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by CBarca on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:44 am

I think we should just stay with the 4-3-3 lol.

Not sure why people want change scratch

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:58 am

@BarcaKizz wrote:Nice insight Dani.

Only thing I will argue with is the Xavi problem. I've said it before that Spain could solve it simply by dropping Xavi into Alonso's position. He can play it relatively similarly though with more mobility etc.

If I were to get Barca to play this way, I'd never have Xavi in the no. 10 role. I'd use it if Xavi wasn't on or with Xavi deep. I think a few players could partner Busquets: Xavi, Song and Thiago. The latter have less quality but tactically well suited to the sort of role needed alongside the anchor that is Busquets.

Now this certainly diminishes Xavi's role, but I'm looking at this as a tactical alternative not a full-time switch and I'm simply trying to point out that from a tactical POV, I think it could work well.

Interesting you point to that game against Inter. I think its unfair as the problem wasn't just formation that day. There was a lot more wrong with our performance. I said it was the worst of Pep's era for a long time. The 4-2-3-1 did work to better effect on plenty of occasions as well remember?

One easy variable to point out is simply players. Keita/Maxwell left side doesn't even come close to Iniesta/Alba. A few reasons to this and the main one is the nice dynamic between the latter two, another that Iniesta is irreplaceable and Alba gives a lot more width and penetration which is what we lacked when Iniesta/Keita played that LW role. Secondly a Cesc/Messi or Messi-Villa tandem would be much better than Messi/Ibra for reasons we all know lol.

Like you noted at the start, I'm not arguing for change in formation at all but trying to have some actually good tactical discussion. I do think 4-2-3-1 can work at the right times with the right personnel. However, is it better? No, but its a tactical option.

Very true.

The thing I think is though, if you had Xavi next to Busquets, wouldnt you just rather play the usual 433 in its standard way. If the point of 4231 is for something new, surely it should be something new rather than the same players just arranged slightly different but in a way which limits there effectiveness?

4231 has worked better than that Inter game and considering many of them came with Ibra rather than a 9 who would be a better overall fit tactically (Villa in that position for example) then yes you could say it has a chance to work. On the other hand, one would argue that was the elite opponant the formation was used on and it was a fail, perhaps the flaws it has is too great for elites.

I think maybe its this plus what your saying, the dynamic between Maxwell and Keita (plus lack of Iniesta) was a larger factor that the shape we had. Though looking back at it, playing any sort of tradional 9 vs the Inter backline is the worst thing you can possibly do.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:59 am

@barca 2011 wrote:

Also, to franchise I agree with the if aint it broke dont fix it attitude but these are hypothetical what ifs. The 4-3-3 has stood the test of time for a reason. its just interesting to look at the options.

I understand, I shouldnt really knock the thought or idea. I just cannot see the positive side of it, not that shape anyway.
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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:48 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:If we're going to be talking about tactical options how about the formation of the moment, 3-5-2? I think it's a much worthier experiment with a 3 man backline than the 3-4-3. It wouldn't hurt the midfield (or even alter it), with Alba and Alves we have two wingbacks for it, Villa and Sanchez both play better centrally so we would see their best version as well. If we're ever short on forwards and have enough CBs (the opposite to our current situation, I know) it could be a successful formation for us. Only problem I can see is that there wouldn't be the overlap of the inside forwards and the full backs and perhaps if Messi drops down too deep it would clog the midfield.

Personally I would cross the two formations to get rid of both problems.

In the 343 we used previously, we get no fullback overload which is crucial to our game. It was in the end main reason for its failure.

However, in a 352 it goes against our game in that we dont play with 1 striker, let alone 2..we would no longer overload the midifield.

I like the back up formation Tito used at the start of the season when we was coming from goals down.

I dont remember which players were used but the shape I do remember.



Dani Alves------------------------Mascherano---------------------------------Alba

---------------------------------------Busquets----------------------------------------

-----------------------------Xavi------------------Iniesta-----------------------------

---------------------------------------Messi------------------------------------------------

Pedro--------------------------------Alexis------------------------------------------Tello

As you can see, very offensive, still get overload on the flanks and overload in midfield. Your looking to score and your taking tremendous risk at the back knowing you may concede. Its not a formation you can use from the start obviously. I would hone that in a bit to something like.




---------------------Puyol------------Pique---------------Mascherano--------------

Dani A--------------------Xavi-----------------Busquets-----------------------Adriano

---------------------------------------Messi------------------------------------------------

Pedro-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Tello


As you can see, two glaring admissons...Alba and Iniesta.

However, I think this is the only realistic 3 at the back formation which has a chance at working vs 4231 formations. The biggest problem minus the lack of our second or third best player is its a very akward formation to press out of.

But to explain my idea, its basically a 352 but the two are split into wide areas rather than center. It also gives you some added flexibilty that it could become change to a back 4 during the game if need be without making a sub. But it works against a 4231, or at least the way teams use it against us.

Generally the wingers in the formation are defensively aware, they have to be if their coach intends on not losing. Against Barca, theres going to be times when 10 players have to get behind the ball and I think most coaches have that in mind when they select their flank players.

Lets use Madrid for an example.

In a defensive phase, say Madrid break out of our press and we are forced into our defensive half.

What we would ideally have (we done this apect of it before) is Cristiano being picked up by Puyol with Alves in support but keeping an eye for Marcelo coming, Benzema by Pique with Mascherano covering him or visa versa depending on Benz movement and Di Maria and Adriano will be naturally in each others area. We have done similar elements of this before and it has worked very well I felt.

In midfield, we would need something different than we are used to. Khedira not Alonso makes runs forward and he usually does it on the inside right channel (our left). Busquets cannot do two things at once, mark Ozil as he has done and stop Khedira's runs. Xavi in this deeper positon must be in cohesion with Busquets so when Khedira makes that run, Xavi and watch for Ozil getting into the space Busquets has left.


Alonso rarely crosses the halfway, but still Messi cannot be in his mood to slack off. Otherwise, he puts the team in jeopardy. You cannot play a new system vs an elite opponant if you dont stick to the plan and dont make the physical effort. I think thats just basics and goes without saying.

When pressing, its a little easier but it still presents an element of risk. As I said, its a bit awkward to press out of this 352.

Tello between Arbeloa and Pepe, Messi the first out to press Pepe and force him to hoof it/back to Iker, Pedro between Ramos and Marcelo, Dani Alves on Marcelo. Adriano on Di Maria, Xavi on Alonso, Busquets on Khedira.

We now have a 3 v 2 with is fine, however one of those is a midfielder. Ozil. He wont be near the centerback zone if we are pressing them, he will be much deeper trying to assit them.

This is where Mascherano's love for coming out from the backline might actually be of some use. He will come up the pitch onto Ozil, leaving 2 v 1 at the back.

Of course part of this risk is also that Mascherano has trouble switching of from midfielder mode to center back mode. If they escape the press, his origanal job is covering Benzema with Pique. He cant forget it.

Now, it still has its element of risk but its the best 352 I can think of for us. It isnt totally rigid, we have overlap on the flanks, overload in midfield while not leaving oceans of space at the back. Would take work though, but its achievable. The downside of course is Iniesta doesnt fit in it. You cant shut him out to the flank because it would make us narrow, which in this formation would be a disaster offensively.

The reason I dont have it as Barca2012 is that Pique and Busquets will have the same role in attack. It might even be easier to press us because we have 6 players all in a center zone our goalside of the halfway line. Also because we have no width higher up the pitch.



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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by BarcaKizz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:43 am

@Dani:

I like your formations.

Now to your questions, if Xavi is there why not just have a normal 4-2-3-1. Well the only difference is simply that when we are attacking, instead of Xavi being around the edge of the box waiting to receive passes and making his runs through the middle, he sits deep alongside Busquets where he is an option predominantly for recycling the ball. This means if we lose the ball, we have more men behind it to protect our backline.

Clearly this limits Xavi greatly, but he won't be bad at it by any means and the formation has not been created to facilitate his best play but to make sure that there are more men behind the ball when we lose it.
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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:47 am

Thanks and yes, it makes sense.

It would also mean less work load for Xavi, but I think we would have to forget about pressing then. Because if the ball is switched to the leftcenterback Xavi is often the first man out to press him, or at least a deeper lying midfield depending on the system the opponant uses. He cant be that deep, press, and still be in a good defensive position all at once.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by BarcaKizz on Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:10 am

It means Messi has to press like he used to, then we have 4 pressing players effectively, which is probably the same as what it is currently.
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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by alexjanosik on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:57 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:If we're going to be talking about tactical options how about the formation of the moment, 3-5-2? I think it's a much worthier experiment with a 3 man backline than the 3-4-3. It wouldn't hurt the midfield (or even alter it), with Alba and Alves we have two wingbacks for it, Villa and Sanchez both play better centrally so we would see their best version as well. If we're ever short on forwards and have enough CBs (the opposite to our current situation, I know) it could be a successful formation for us. Only problem I can see is that there wouldn't be the overlap of the inside forwards and the full backs and perhaps if Messi drops down too deep it would clog the midfield.

Personally I would cross the two formations to get rid of both problems.

In the 343 we used previously, we get no fullback overload which is crucial to our game. It was in the end main reason for its failure.

However, in a 352 it goes against our game in that we dont play with 1 striker, let alone 2..we would no longer overload the midifield.

I like the back up formation Tito used at the start of the season when we was coming from goals down.

I dont remember which players were used but the shape I do remember.



Dani Alves------------------------Mascherano---------------------------------Alba

---------------------------------------Busquets----------------------------------------

-----------------------------Xavi------------------Iniesta-----------------------------

---------------------------------------Messi------------------------------------------------

Pedro--------------------------------Alexis------------------------------------------Tello

As you can see, very offensive, still get overload on the flanks and overload in midfield. Your looking to score and your taking tremendous risk at the back knowing you may concede. Its not a formation you can use from the start obviously. I would hone that in a bit to something like.




---------------------Puyol------------Pique---------------Mascherano--------------

Dani A--------------------Xavi-----------------Busquets-----------------------Adriano

---------------------------------------Messi------------------------------------------------

Pedro-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Tello


As you can see, two glaring admissons...Alba and Iniesta.

However, I think this is the only realistic 3 at the back formation which has a chance at working vs 4231 formations. The biggest problem minus the lack of our second or third best player is its a very akward formation to press out of.

But to explain my idea, its basically a 352 but the two are split into wide areas rather than center. It also gives you some added flexibilty that it could become change to a back 4 during the game if need be without making a sub. But it works against a 4231, or at least the way teams use it against us.

Generally the wingers in the formation are defensively aware, they have to be if their coach intends on not losing. Against Barca, theres going to be times when 10 players have to get behind the ball and I think most coaches have that in mind when they select their flank players.

Lets use Madrid for an example.

In a defensive phase, say Madrid break out of our press and we are forced into our defensive half.

What we would ideally have (we done this apect of it before) is Cristiano being picked up by Puyol with Alves in support but keeping an eye for Marcelo coming, Benzema by Pique with Mascherano covering him or visa versa depending on Benz movement and Di Maria and Adriano will be naturally in each others area. We have done similar elements of this before and it has worked very well I felt.

In midfield, we would need something different than we are used to. Khedira not Alonso makes runs forward and he usually does it on the inside right channel (our left). Busquets cannot do two things at once, mark Ozil as he has done and stop Khedira's runs. Xavi in this deeper positon must be in cohesion with Busquets so when Khedira makes that run, Xavi and watch for Ozil getting into the space Busquets has left.


Alonso rarely crosses the halfway, but still Messi cannot be in his mood to slack off. Otherwise, he puts the team in jeopardy. You cannot play a new system vs an elite opponant if you dont stick to the plan and dont make the physical effort. I think thats just basics and goes without saying.

When pressing, its a little easier but it still presents an element of risk. As I said, its a bit awkward to press out of this 352.

Tello between Arbeloa and Pepe, Messi the first out to press Pepe and force him to hoof it/back to Iker, Pedro between Ramos and Marcelo, Dani Alves on Marcelo. Adriano on Di Maria, Xavi on Alonso, Busquets on Khedira.

We now have a 3 v 2 with is fine, however one of those is a midfielder. Ozil. He wont be near the centerback zone if we are pressing them, he will be much deeper trying to assit them.

This is where Mascherano's love for coming out from the backline might actually be of some use. He will come up the pitch onto Ozil, leaving 2 v 1 at the back.

Of course part of this risk is also that Mascherano has trouble switching of from midfielder mode to center back mode. If they escape the press, his origanal job is covering Benzema with Pique. He cant forget it.

Now, it still has its element of risk but its the best 352 I can think of for us. It isnt totally rigid, we have overlap on the flanks, overload in midfield while not leaving oceans of space at the back. Would take work though, but its achievable. The downside of course is Iniesta doesnt fit in it. You cant shut him out to the flank because it would make us narrow, which in this formation would be a disaster offensively.

The reason I dont have it as Barca2012 is that Pique and Busquets will have the same role in attack. It might even be easier to press us because we have 6 players all in a center zone our goalside of the halfway line. Also because we have no width higher up the pitch.




Correct me if I am wrog dani,but we did seem to use the 2 formations u mentioned last season.
I especially remember the first one because it was so unique.Playing fullbacks as the wide ones in the back 3.I remember many games in which Alves-Abidal or Alves-Adriano were the ones flanking the central CB.
Then the diamond in midfield.I might be mistaken but I am quite sure we played a very similar formation in the 3-1 Clasico win at the Bernabeau last season.It was the game in which Busquets played a blinder.He would drop into CB when needed and then push into midfield.And I clearly remember Messi playing behind Alexis.
We also played the second variation of the formation you listed.Not exactly the same way you put it but somewhat similar.This time with 3 natural CB's and a flat midfield.With Messi in front.A 3-4-1-2 if you like.Sometimes Messi played as the 10 behind the 2 and sometimes Cesc.
Also dont think lack of fullback overload was the failure for the system.
I think the system failed because we were completely depleted both in defense and in attack.In attack we had to make do with Tell,Cuenca etc which put too much burden on Messi.In defense due to injuries we had to rely on Masch who was atrocious in the crunch games against Chelsea and Madrid.In that second leg against Chelsea we were playing 3 at the back.

I do think if we need a change of formation(not required),then 3-4-3 for me anytime over 4-2-3-1.
3-4-3 is in staying true to our roots.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:31 pm

The first we used this season, dont know about the last season.

The 2nd one I dont know, If we did I missed it because I dont remember it.

The 3-1 Madrid game we played this according to zonalmarking. I dont remember the game this is the best I can go on.




As for the failure of the system. Dont you think whenever we played 343 diamond the wingers were very ineffective? I remember we ended up playing 2 out of Cuenca, Afellay and Tello just to get some width out there at some point.

I think the problem was when the winger came inside, both with and without the ball the fullback could follow and leave the flank open and we didnt have any way to punish them.
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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by jibers on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:37 am

Dani I agree about the 3-4-3. I always say you can't have a 343 and use inside forwards. The fullbacks/wide cbs where left to rot because the 'wingers' kept drifting inside like it was a 433. And in a 343 I found tha Xavi was nowhere near as effective because he was not allowed to move around.

The only game I saw the 343 work perfectloy was the 5-0 win over Villareal, the first game of last season where the wide playwers actually stayed wide, ut this could have been because of how narrow Villareal's tactics were tbh.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by alexjanosik on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:46 am

@The Franchise wrote:The first we used this season, dont know about the last season.

The 2nd one I dont know, If we did I missed it because I dont remember it.

The 3-1 Madrid game we played this according to zonalmarking. I dont remember the game this is the best I can go on.




As for the failure of the system. Dont you think whenever we played 343 diamond the wingers were very ineffective? I remember we ended up playing 2 out of Cuenca, Afellay and Tello just to get some width out there at some point.

I think the problem was when the winger came inside, both with and without the ball the fullback could follow and leave the flank open and we didnt have any way to punish them.

I forgot that Puyol played that game.But I do clearly remember that Alves was playing a lot higher up.In midfield or even slightly higher up than midfield.So it would be closer to the second formation than the first.

dani
Regarding the failure of the system,because of the injuries our wide players were Tello,Cuenca and Alexis.Tello and Cuenca exclusively stayed wide.
Alexis too when he played right didnt make as many runs.
So the problem with ghe 3-4-3 that you speak of(that there is no one to overlap when the forward comes inside) didnt arise.For the simple reason our backup forwards,Cuenca especially are more pure wingers and they like to stay out wide and beat the fullback on the outside and put crosses in.
Now you may argue that Cuenca and Tello didnt come in because there was no one to exploit the space they had left but I would argue that its because of the sort of players they are.
Also I clearly remember many games in which Alves and Abidal-Adriano played as the wide players in the 3 at the back,very similar to your first formation.I cant remember the exact game but I am quite sure there were a few and there were even comments on it.So again the question of fullback overload didnt arise imo.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:01 am

Puyol was playing RB in the second half from what i remember

Valdes
Puyol Busquets Pique Abidal
Xavi Cesc
Alves Messi Iniesta
Alexis

Busquets was playing CB, but he did also his DM job

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by Donuts on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:34 am

Kizu wrote:Puyol was playing RB in the second half from what i remember

Valdes
Puyol Busquets Pique Abidal
Xavi Cesc
Alves Messi Iniesta
Alexis

Busquets was playing CB, but he did also his DM job
Fifa isn't real life.

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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:27 am

@jibers wrote:Dani I agree about the 3-4-3. I always say you can't have a 343 and use inside forwards. The fullbacks/wide cbs where left to rot because the 'wingers' kept drifting inside like it was a 433. And in a 343 I found tha Xavi was nowhere near as effective because he was not allowed to move around.

The only game I saw the 343 work perfectloy was the 5-0 win over Villareal, the first game of last season where the wide playwers actually stayed wide, ut this could have been because of how narrow Villareal's tactics were tbh.

I agree. I think the reason it worked so well against Villareal (and would of worked vs Milan but for some reason why didnt use it) was how Narrow they played. We were easily able to press them and they only have fullbacks on the wing.

Both Villarreals 4222 and Milans 4312 at the time.
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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:34 am

@alexjanosik wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:The first we used this season, dont know about the last season.

The 2nd one I dont know, If we did I missed it because I dont remember it.

The 3-1 Madrid game we played this according to zonalmarking. I dont remember the game this is the best I can go on.




As for the failure of the system. Dont you think whenever we played 343 diamond the wingers were very ineffective? I remember we ended up playing 2 out of Cuenca, Afellay and Tello just to get some width out there at some point.

I think the problem was when the winger came inside, both with and without the ball the fullback could follow and leave the flank open and we didnt have any way to punish them.

I forgot that Puyol played that game.But I do clearly remember that Alves was playing a lot higher up.In midfield or even slightly higher up than midfield.So it would be closer to the second formation than the first.

dani
Regarding the failure of the system,because of the injuries our wide players were Tello,Cuenca and Alexis.Tello and Cuenca exclusively stayed wide.
Alexis too when he played right didnt make as many runs.
So the problem with ghe 3-4-3 that you speak of(that there is no one to overlap when the forward comes inside) didnt arise.For the simple reason our backup forwards,Cuenca especially are more pure wingers and they like to stay out wide and beat the fullback on the outside and put crosses in.
Now you may argue that Cuenca and Tello didnt come in because there was no one to exploit the space they had left but I would argue that its because of the sort of players they are.
Also I clearly remember many games in which Alves and Abidal-Adriano played as the wide players in the 3 at the back,very similar to your first formation.I cant remember the exact game but I am quite sure there were a few and there were even comments on it.So again the question of fullback overload didnt arise imo.

Honestly, I dont know if the diagram is right or wrong. Usually zonalmarking is accurate but its not bible, there have been times I disagree with what they put there.

They played in the 343, Tello, Cuenca ect did stay wide, but that with via instruction in my opinion. Because if they did come inside there would no no fullback overlap, as we had no fullbacks. So to me that means that is still the failure of the system.

I think Cuenca and Tello are players who like the flanks, no doubt (so asking them to do it was easier) but I am fairly sure if asked to, they can make different runs. I think we have seen times where both of them have done that.

As for the first formation, I dont think and I didnt intend to indicate that fullback width is a problem in that formation. My problem with that formation is that its extremly offensive and when he have used it this season it has only been used with where are desperate and behind on the score.
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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by alexjanosik on Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:44 am

Fair enough.I think it may have been a bit of both.They stayed wide bacuse thats their natural tendacies and because of instructions.
Just a comment on the second formation.I dont like it personally for one reason.We lose the numbers advantage in midfield.We have just Busquets and Xavi in midfield.Messi drops back but still in our normal formation we have 4 in midfield,same with the diamond 3-4-3.
Against a 4-2-3-1,it will be a 3 vs 3 games in midfield(Messi drops back for us and the 10 drops back in the 4-2-3-1 for them).So we lose our vicelike midfield control which I am not particularly fond of.
The fullbacks cant tuck in too much cause as you said they need to provide width when the forwards tuck in.
So it presents a bit of a problem.The diamond 3-4-3 has a fullback overload problem,but the second formation has a midfield overload problem(we lose midfield control).Depends which is the lesser evil.I prefer the diamond 3-4-3 because I always prefer vicelike control in midfield even if it means the fullbaks cant overlap as much.
One solution I can offer is having Alves play right midfielder in the diamond.
He has the technique and the lungs to play a sort of double role.He will help preserve the numbers game in midfield and help keep possession and also when the occasion presents itself overlap when the forward tucks in.
Ofcourse he will have to be very selective and intelligent.
I am talking something like this.

Puyol Pique Masch

Busquets
Alves Xavi

Messi

Pedro Alexis Tello

Alves tucks into right midfield and presses without the ball.With the ball he helps keeps possession,plays passes in midfield and when the occasion presenst itself,overlap.I think with Alves it can work solving both the problems mentioned.What do you think?




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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by barca 2011 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:49 am

@alexjanosik wrote:Fair enough.I think it may have been a bit of both.They stayed wide bacuse thats their natural tendacies and because of instructions.
Just a comment on the second formation.I dont like it personally for one reason.We lose the numbers advantage in midfield.We have just Busquets and Xavi in midfield.Messi drops back but still in our normal formation we have 4 in midfield,same with the diamond 3-4-3.
Against a 4-2-3-1,it will be a 3 vs 3 games in midfield(Messi drops back for us and the 10 drops back in the 4-2-3-1 for them).So we lose our vicelike midfield control which I am not particularly fond of.
The fullbacks cant tuck in too much cause as you said they need to provide width when the forwards tuck in.
So it presents a bit of a problem.The diamond 3-4-3 has a fullback overload problem,but the second formation has a midfield overload problem(we lose midfield control).Depends which is the lesser evil.I prefer the diamond 3-4-3 because I always prefer vicelike control in midfield even if it means the fullbaks cant overlap as much.
One solution I can offer is having Alves play right midfielder in the diamond.
He has the technique and the lungs to play a sort of double role.He will help preserve the numbers game in midfield and help keep possession and also when the occasion presents itself overlap when the forward tucks in.
Ofcourse he will have to be very selective and intelligent.
I am talking something like this.

Puyol Pique Masch

Busquets
Alves Xavi

Messi

Pedro Alexis Tello

Alves tucks into right midfield and presses without the ball.With the ball he helps keeps possession,plays passes in midfield and when the occasion presenst itself,overlap.I think with Alves it can work solving both the problems mentioned.What do you think?



so you mean:

----------------------------v.v--------------------------

--------Puyol-------------Pique--------------Masch

-----------------------Busquets----------------------

----------Alves----------------------Xavi--------------

------------------------Messi---------------------------

----Pedro--------------Alexis--------------------Tello

?


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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by The Franchise on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:03 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:Fair enough.I think it may have been a bit of both.They stayed wide bacuse thats their natural tendacies and because of instructions.
Just a comment on the second formation.I dont like it personally for one reason.We lose the numbers advantage in midfield.We have just Busquets and Xavi in midfield.Messi drops back but still in our normal formation we have 4 in midfield,same with the diamond 3-4-3.
Against a 4-2-3-1,it will be a 3 vs 3 games in midfield(Messi drops back for us and the 10 drops back in the 4-2-3-1 for them).So we lose our vicelike midfield control which I am not particularly fond of.
The fullbacks cant tuck in too much cause as you said they need to provide width when the forwards tuck in.
So it presents a bit of a problem.The diamond 3-4-3 has a fullback overload problem,but the second formation has a midfield overload problem(we lose midfield control).Depends which is the lesser evil.I prefer the diamond 3-4-3 because I always prefer vicelike control in midfield even if it means the fullbaks cant overlap as much.
One solution I can offer is having Alves play right midfielder in the diamond.
He has the technique and the lungs to play a sort of double role.He will help preserve the numbers game in midfield and help keep possession and also when the occasion presents itself overlap when the forward tucks in.
Ofcourse he will have to be very selective and intelligent.
I am talking something like this.

Puyol Pique Masch

Busquets
Alves Xavi

Messi

Pedro Alexis Tello

Alves tucks into right midfield and presses without the ball.With the ball he helps keeps possession,plays passes in midfield and when the occasion presenst itself,overlap.I think with Alves it can work solving both the problems mentioned.What do you think?




I agree, it doesnt overload the midfield.

As for the formation, I like it because Dani Alves can easily play this role due to his unique mix of on ball skills and energy. On the left, on first glance I worry about the lack of players. Tello could easily be double marked with no overlap. However, I actually dont think it would be a problem.

As always, because of Messi and his left foot, a very often played pass is out Tello who is in alot of space as Messi has already drawn alot of defensive cover across to him.

The only thing I dont like is Mascherano. I would prefer Adriano or maybe even Barta. Whoever plays in that lets call it, left defence position is going to have to bring the ball out from the back on occassion. They also might get the odd chance to back up play. Adriano to me suits this role much better. At this point, his speed alone makes him at least as useful a defender than Mascherano also.
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Re: If Barca used a 4-2-3-1....

Post by alexjanosik on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:48 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:Fair enough.I think it may have been a bit of both.They stayed wide bacuse thats their natural tendacies and because of instructions.
Just a comment on the second formation.I dont like it personally for one reason.We lose the numbers advantage in midfield.We have just Busquets and Xavi in midfield.Messi drops back but still in our normal formation we have 4 in midfield,same with the diamond 3-4-3.
Against a 4-2-3-1,it will be a 3 vs 3 games in midfield(Messi drops back for us and the 10 drops back in the 4-2-3-1 for them).So we lose our vicelike midfield control which I am not particularly fond of.
The fullbacks cant tuck in too much cause as you said they need to provide width when the forwards tuck in.
So it presents a bit of a problem.The diamond 3-4-3 has a fullback overload problem,but the second formation has a midfield overload problem(we lose midfield control).Depends which is the lesser evil.I prefer the diamond 3-4-3 because I always prefer vicelike control in midfield even if it means the fullbaks cant overlap as much.
One solution I can offer is having Alves play right midfielder in the diamond.
He has the technique and the lungs to play a sort of double role.He will help preserve the numbers game in midfield and help keep possession and also when the occasion presents itself overlap when the forward tucks in.
Ofcourse he will have to be very selective and intelligent.
I am talking something like this.

Puyol Pique Masch

Busquets
Alves Xavi

Messi

Pedro Alexis Tello

Alves tucks into right midfield and presses without the ball.With the ball he helps keeps possession,plays passes in midfield and when the occasion presenst itself,overlap.I think with Alves it can work solving both the problems mentioned.What do you think?




I agree, it doesnt overload the midfield.

As for the formation, I like it because Dani Alves can easily play this role due to his unique mix of on ball skills and energy. On the left, on first glance I worry about the lack of players. Tello could easily be double marked with no overlap. However, I actually dont think it would be a problem.

As always, because of Messi and his left foot, a very often played pass is out Tello who is in alot of space as Messi has already drawn alot of defensive cover across to him.

The only thing I dont like is Mascherano. I would prefer Adriano or maybe even Barta. Whoever plays in that lets call it, left defence position is going to have to bring the ball out from the back on occassion. They also might get the odd chance to back up play. Adriano to me suits this role much better. At this point, his speed alone makes him at least as useful a defender than Mascherano also.

Adriano for me too.ATM he is a much better option for that left defense position.

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