Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Helmer on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:35 pm

why why why u scheiße clowning....why!!!

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Don't call me James on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:39 pm

We should've had 5 goals by now. Credit to the guys for not letting their heads go down and kept on fighting. Clowning should be no where near the first team, a big f*ck you Rodgers for that. Reina got his shite handed to him in the freekick (which by the way was an awful dive by Dempsey). There could've been a deflection, it was hard to tell though, so I could be harsh on Reina. Gerrard, sadly, has looked awful all season long and today is no different, at this rate he's not good enough to start.

The ball just wouldn't go in ffs.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Fahim89 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:45 pm

O clowning O you idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is just depressing . . . . . good fight but then again CLOWNING!!!
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Fahim89 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:51 pm

My boss is gonna kill me if i am late for office tomorrow its almost 3 at night! And i am watching 'The Clowning Show' . . . FML! ! ! :brickwall: Clubber
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Fahim89 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:58 pm

DAMN!!! PRESSURE PRESSURE PRESSURE!!!!!!!!!!! nothing else!!!!!!

COME ON REDMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Don't call me James on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:41 pm

Goddam, I'm f*cking pissed. Match thoughts later when I'm calmer.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Art Morte on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:50 pm

Yeah well, I was hopeful about this game. But little did it do. An unlucky Bale own goal to ruin their clean sheet. Feels mighty nice to look at the table and see we're 12th.

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Brendan you f*cking idiot. Awful team selection.

Henderson's had a shocker, I don't know what about his Swansea performance made BR go "this guy needs to start our next match, too". But it's a win for Tottenham and them 7 points ahead of us.
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by stevieg8 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:50 pm

Well, as Arq and Nishy can tell you guys, I was incredibly negative in the chat, so I got all of my kneejerk reactions out over there. Instead, I'm gonna finally talk about some observations I've been musing over since the Swansea game:

We are clearly a team on our way to being strong. I've seen this in genuinely every sport, as teams try to develop an identity and begin coming together in the way that champions have to do at some point. The reasons why I say this are because the weaknesses we see are not weakness, they're moments of weakness. Some games we have an incredible defense, but just can't get that goal. Other games, we look fantastic in attack, but seem to concede repeatedly. We just can't put all the pieces together in one match, but the pieces are there. When we finally manage to get our heads straight for a full 90 minutes, the team we're going up against better beware.

We're also clearly a couple of players away. We don't have anyone on our bench that can really change things, and if Shelvey and Sterling are going to reach the levels we hope for, it's certainly not happening right now. Both are good, but have some major flaws in their game, and are not going to be bringing us wins without some help from people around them. Same goes for Henderson, who I'm worried might just be an impact sub long-term. He has flashes of greatness, but I've never seen him put together a really impressive game, and his inability to find the net when the easiest of chances show up is a problem (today was not the first time we've seen that). We need someone to support Suarez up top, give him service and finish the chances he creates; this is nothing new either.

As for today's game, there were some positives. Enrique looks to have a good partnership up front with Suarez, which I think was an excellent spot by BR. If only we had someone to take his spot at LB when he's playing in midfield for us, and clearly Downing is not that person. We'd all be singing a different song about squad selection if Kelly was fit, I think. Either we sacrifice arguably our best offensive player from today by putting him in defense, or we see Downing/Wisdom playing in defense for us - remember that's the choice BR has to confront.

Agger and Skrtel were once again fantastic, and I can't see how either were responsible for either goal. Always something to be optimistic about.

Allen, although clearly not suited to the DM position, had a strong game as well; when Lucas comes back and they can make that a solid two-man pivot, I'm very optimistic as to how that goes. If only he didn't keep getting injured, we might have seen very different results, both last year and so far this season.

Assaidi looked good in his cameo; I really wish he would start over Sterling, and have Raheem come in to run at the tired defense for the last 20 minutes. I honestly feel that Assaidi gives us a better chance to win, and can't for the life of me figure out why he's been ostracized in his first half season with the club. Let him settle with the team in gametime, and see what he does with a full 90 minutes against a PL defense.

I don't think BR is responsible for all the things being brought against him. Downing was a poor choice this game, and I don't understand why Assaidi and Sahin don't see as much game time, but our lapses in concentration (and the failure of the ref to see that Dempsey wasn't touched) are not his fault. Those are on the players, and will be reduced over time. I still think we need a few new players, and would love to see some of the failures - Downing and Cole especially - offloaded for funds. We are clearly still a work in progress, but I think the progress has been looking good.
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Arquitescu on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:40 pm

I don't even know where to begin. What funny is for all the possession philosophy talk we are being out-possessed by over half of the teams we face. It starts off by us dawdling in possession beginning of the game then being ripped on the counter, suddenly we resort to a high pressure counter-attacking game as a last ditch option since we create f**k all with our aimless possession. Usually the last ditch possession is built around by aimless crosses into a box full of midgets or just relying on Suarez to pull something out of his ass and score.


Rodger's brings his naivety again to the table this game. It absolutely baffles me to see what he see's in Stewart Downing not only as a player but as an LB. 1. He cannot play at all within this system. 2. He is more one-footed than an amputee 3. Doesn't have the footballing IQ/instict. 4. Cannot defend as evidenced by him running away from Lennon and being responsible for the goal. We have Robinson who is far more capable and then Glen who could play LB while Wisdom/Flanno play RB or at least drop Enrique back to LB whilst playing the ostracised Assaidi.

Johnson had one of his signature where he is caught ball watching and couldn't be arsed about tracking Bale. While he contributed in attack he once again went into Glen-mode by having so many unnecessary touches near the end of the game squandering a lot of time. For all his solid performances he returns by giving us a defensive horror-show like this. Why is Gerrard continuing to play deep? Its obvious his give-aways and hindered movement is costing us the midfield battle as Rodger's needs to grow a pair and play him in a supporting role. Allen as a DM while understandable just isn't working given his lack of physicality and poor screening of the midfield but who can blame him as this is out of his role. Henderson for all the praise I gave him looked out of his depth today and just isn't mentally or technically ready for such a high pressure game. I've given Sahin a lot of stick but his experience and ability was needed today. Sterling has been overplayed now and is getting repetitive with his aimless runs and dribbles which squanders possession and the integral balance of the team as he is playing a raw 17 year old isn't cutting it at the moment as especially when he shouldn't be played so much. I don't understand Rodger's decision for his trump card to put Shelvey out for Henderson again as with him and Gerrard we have two midfielders incapable of keeping possession, both who want box to box running. 3rd time we have noticed once Shelvey is combined with Gerrard we lose possession and have trouble keeping it since Shelvey's footballing IQ is completely clueless at the moment on when to make runs, or stay back or shoot. etc etc.

Reina for all the faith given to him once again was poor, slow and out of it. He was ball watching for the first goal and once again misjudged the Bale kick which shouldn't have gone in.

People say we deserved a point but after this display we didn't deserve a single point.

Enrique for all the stick he has been getting has been our best player two games in a row. Unlike Glen who's complacent attitude is costing us Enrique covers for Downing and attacks attacks attacks since he knows our possession is doing nothing against superior teams. Our best player along with Agger and Allen on the pitch.

My rant is going all over the place yet Rodger's needs to decide on one formation where the players play in their optimal roles along with having a certain balance of chemistry, discipline and understanding which clearly is missing. We have a team who is incapable of playing the Tiki-Taka dream BR desires as we now have to come to the reality of the level of our players.

Once FSG actually worry more about Liverpool and less about Red Sox they can understand how desperately we need reinforcements within January. As for the Lucas hope its almost as if people expect us winning games magically when he comes back but the truth is we will only anchor our midfield more efficiently, thus papering over the larger problems.

Apologies for the disjointed and poorly written rant but keep in mind I share the same state of frustration as a lot of you do. Ask Stevie and Nishy who I was ranting all night with. Take my rant with a pinch of salt

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Don't call me James on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:59 pm

Am I the only one or is Sterling too f*cking overrated atm? He's only 17 and he's not cut out to play every f*cking minute of every f*cking game. Sure he can be good in the future but he shows how f*cking immature he is week in week out. He concedes fouls in dangerous positions every other possession ffs. His decision making is worst than a f*cking cow lined-up in the slaughter house. He's more selfish than Robben and CR combined. I know we're lacking depth to play anyone else but Assiadi and Suso are older and much more mature than him. Heck even Pacheco is almost 4 years older than him and has been lighting up the Reserves. I'm not saying bench him completely but he doesn't deserve to start every game.

Rodgers plays favorites, and that grinds my gears to no avail.

Sorry for the overuse of profanity, I'm still as pissed as I was an hour ago.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Art Morte on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:04 pm

I find myself agreeing with more of Arquitecto's points in this analysis than in the previous one.

It really wasn't the first time this season when our much-hyped possession game just wasn't there or didn't produce anything noteworthy.

Allen has been, to me, poor in too many games. I'm hoping Lucas will come back strong from his injury and challenge Allen for his DM spot. Allen just looks lost too often. He plays well when we are controlling the game, but when we're under pressure I'm just left hoping Lucas would be there.

I cannot agree with the Sterling criticism, he's 17 and has done mighty well for his age. A little repetitive, yes, but still one of the more exciting players.

Reina disappointed me (too) in the second goal. Well, 50-50 between him and the wall. But he was already in the wrong corner when the shot came in, looked too much like he was gambling it, hoping to get it right and he didn't.

Oh, and a last note on Gerrard. He has got his brilliant moments, but he has got his seriously bad moments as well. Personally I think Rodgers should drop him in some game just to see how we perform and give Stevie a little nudge that he has to be on top of his game to stay as an automatic starter.
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Arquitescu on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:04 pm

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Am I the only one or is Sterling too f*cking overrated atm? He's only 17 and he's not cut out to play every f*cking minute of every f*cking game. Sure he can be good in the future but he shows how f*cking immature he is week in week out. He concedes fouls in dangerous positions every other possession ffs. His decision making is worst than a f*cking cow lined-up in the slaughter house. He's more selfish than Robben and CR combined. I know we're lacking depth to play anyone else but Assiadi and Suso are older and much more mature than him. Heck even Pacheco is almost 4 years older than him and has been lighting up the Reserves. I'm not saying bench him completely but he doesn't deserve to start every game.

Rodgers plays favorites, and that grinds my gears to no avail.

Sorry for the overuse of profanity, I'm still as pissed as I was an hour ago.

My friend, I genuinely glad I have someone to share my frustration with as Nishy and Stevie are in on this as well.

Its quite obvious we have overrated the shit out of Sterling. Yes yes yes yes he is 17 and all but that doesn't mean we have to play a boy who is far to raw to play in such a system. Not only playing him every minute will rob his body of the balanced development but it also clusterf**ks ours system since all he really is doing is running at players (not at the space), taking too many touches, making piss poor decisions etc. Suso hasn't made the impact he has but makes far better decisions and can actually shoot/pass unlike Sterling at the moment. Plus he fits the system far better. Its also funny how Assaidi is continually benched for the 17 year old and already showed what an impact he can make by his cameo.

As for his Downing decision. Don't get me started.

Before we cool down and get rational, now is the time to rant. Let it out buddy.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Art Morte on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:12 pm

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Am I the only one or is Sterling too f*cking overrated atm? He's only 17 and he's not cut out to play every f*cking minute of every f*cking game. Sure he can be good in the future but he shows how f*cking immature he is week in week out. He concedes fouls in dangerous positions every other possession ffs. His decision making is worst than a f*cking cow lined-up in the slaughter house. He's more selfish than Robben and CR combined.

I hear what you're saying, mate, but I think that in the long run this all is a fair price to pay for his development.

Yeah, I, too, hate it sometimes when he tries to do too much, gives away naive fouls or doesn't quite see the best option in a play. But we have got to remember he is only 17 and doing really well for his age. I just hope he keeps on developing and isn't showing all his potential here - which is a possibility, too. But I don't blame him and I don't blame Rodgers for starting him every time so far, although I would not voice any displeasure if someone else was given a start in his place - although it is a fair question would any of our options (Assaidi, Suso) do any better either.
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Arquitescu on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:14 pm

@Art Morte wrote:I find myself agreeing with more of Arquitecto's points in this analysis than in the previous one.

It really wasn't the first time this season when our much-hyped possession game just wasn't there or didn't produce anything noteworthy.

Allen has been, to me, poor in too many games. I'm hoping Lucas will come back strong from his injury and challenge Allen for his DM spot. Allen just looks lost too often. He plays well when we are controlling the game, but when we're under pressure I'm just left hoping Lucas would be there.

I cannot agree with the Sterling criticism, he's 17 and has done mighty well for his age. A little repetitive, yes, but still one of the more exciting players.

Reina disappointed me (too) in the second goal. Well, 50-50 between him and the wall. But he was already in the wrong corner when the shot came in, looked too much like he was gambling it, hoping to get it right and he didn't.

Oh, and a last note on Gerrard. He has got his brilliant moments, but he has got his seriously bad moments as well. Personally I think Rodgers should drop him in some game just to see how we perform and give Stevie a little nudge that he has to be on top of his game to stay as an automatic starter.

Its just downright embarrassing how our possession "philosophy" is continually shot to shit when being out possessed by even counter attacking teams then we go on our 2nd half strategy which resembles no formation and shape as the "philosophy" there is just to pressure and attacking mindlessly. We end up getting the goal but where is the discipline? Where is the guile and thought process behind that? Looks like an act of desperation often to me.

Allen cannot be blamed as we have a man responsible for distribution, possession and recycling of the ball but since his duties are primarily to protect and screen the defence you have to sympathize for the man who is shirking his true role for defensive responsibilities. Lucas when coming back will likely partner Allen to compliment his style rather than having Allen fight for the defensive role. Think this through Art.

Reina can be forgiven but its the same thing for Victor Valdes. Not so much blunders yet he just isn't making any saves any more and just freezes at the oddest moments. He should have switched posts for Bale's pass to Lennon and at least judged the trajectory for the FK. Its funny for all his skill and SW hopes that he continually hoofs the ball out to our midget squad as the last part most disappointing to me.

Sterling? We just keep banking on that he is a player doing so well for his age yet in the end he isn't producing much especially compared to his brilliant opening. My qualms also come with that a 17 year old cannot handle playing week in week out.

Gerrard sadly is in Hodgson's England mode and just isn't getting with the possession system. Nonetheless I don't want to blame him since everyone from Budapest to Bamako knows he isn't a CM. Rodger's needs to get a clue and play him advanced.

The biggest problem is the 4-3-3. Now I know it the formation best for sideways triangular possession passes, yet we shit our pants when being pressured, get carved up by superior midfields and ripped on the counter. The formation lacks incisiveness or structure as we looked far better with our 4-2-3-1/4-1-4-1.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Don't call me James on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:18 pm

I'm not done yet on this rant Razz

I agree with Morty 100% on Gerrard's criticism. Sure, we understand that Stevie isn't his old self and has lost a pace here and a touch there. But his performances have been woeful this season. These lackluster performances on his part should in no way guarantee him a starting berth every week. And it's not like we have no other options in the middle, Rodgers is packed with selection headaches in the middle of the park.

And here comes the catch, if Rodgers doesn't have the balls to drop Gerrard than at least f*cking play him in a position where he can help the team instead of hurting it. Gerrard doesn't have the tactical discipline and patience to play in the pivot and it's been shown throughout the season but the only blind eye is Rodgers who keeps shoving him back into that position.

How hard is it to the the math ffs. Gerrard is our best finisher. We are lucking goals in general and specifically from midfield. Gerrard's best potion is AM. Gerrard sucks at CM. All arrows point to Stevie playing up the pitch would benefit the team but Brendan took Swansea to an 11th place finish in PL so he must know what he's doing.


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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Arquitescu on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:22 pm

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:I'm not done yet on this rant Razz

I agree with Morty 100% on Gerrard's criticism. Sure, we understand that Stevie isn't his old self and has lost a pace here and a touch there. But his performances have been woeful this season. These lackluster performances on his part should in no way guarantee him a starting berth every week. And it's not like we have no other options in the middle, Rodgers is packed with selection headaches in the middle of the park.

And here comes the catch, if Rodgers doesn't have the balls to drop Gerrard than at least f*cking play him in a position where he can help the team instead of hurting it. Gerrard doesn't have the tactical discipline and patience to play in the pivot and it's been shown throughout the season but the only blind eye is Rodgers who keeps shoving him back into that position.

How hard is it to the the math ffs. Gerrard is our best finisher. We are lucking goals in general and specifically from midfield. Gerrard's best potion is AM. Gerrard sucks at CM. All arrows point to Stevie playing up the pitch would benefit the team but Brendan took Swansea to an 11th place finish in PL so he must know what he's doing.


Gerrard has shown glimpses of Gerrard as he seems to be the only guy making incisive passes unlike Sahin, Hendo, Sterling etc but I agree with you since his lack of movement costs us during his give-aways which usually lead to goals. We cannot have a box-to-box player in such a structured system as I'm surprised BR doesn't understand that given his Cruyffian studies of possession. I pray for the day Gerrard will actually play advanced so we can stop cussing him.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Art Morte on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:29 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Allen cannot be blamed as we have a man responsible for distribution, possession and recycling of the ball but since his duties are primarily to protect and screen the defence you have to sympathize for the man who is shirking his true role for defensive responsibilities. Lucas when coming back will likely partner Allen to compliment his style rather than having Allen fight for the defensive role. Think this through Art.

Sterling? We just keep banking on that he is a player doing so well for his age yet in the end he isn't producing much especially compared to his brilliant opening. My qualms also come with that a 17 year old cannot handle playing week in week out.

I think Allen can be blamed, I just think he is not as sharp as we need a man in his position to be and I don't really fancy seeing him and Lucas both on the pitch, I see them much more as two players battling for the same position.

I hear you about Raheem, but as I asked in my previous post, do we have a player that is better suited to take over his role? Assaidi, maybe, Suso, maybe, but in the end both are very much in the same position as Sterling: unproven. Out of those three Sterling has still done the most to impress, in my opinion.

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:I'm not done yet on this rant Razz

I agree with Morty 100% on Gerrard's criticism. Sure, we understand that Stevie isn't his old self and has lost a pace here and a touch there. But his performances have been woeful this season. These lackluster performances on his part should in no way guarantee him a starting berth every week. And it's not like we have no other options in the middle, Rodgers is packed with selection headaches in the middle of the park.

And here comes the catch, if Rodgers doesn't have the balls to drop Gerrard than at least f*cking play him in a position where he can help the team instead of hurting it. Gerrard doesn't have the tactical discipline and patience to play in the pivot and it's been shown throughout the season but the only blind eye is Rodgers who keeps shoving him back into that position.

How hard is it to the the math ffs. Gerrard is our best finisher. We are lucking goals in general and specifically from midfield. Gerrard's best potion is AM. Gerrard sucks at CM. All arrows point to Stevie playing up the pitch would benefit the team but Brendan took Swansea to an 11th place finish in PL so he must know what he's doing.

The part in red is an overstatement, Gerrard has had some good shifts this season. But not in every game and I think the justification is certainly there to drop him in some game(s), I mean, we have got Sahin and Shelvey on the bench, it is the wrong message to give to everybody involved that Gerrard cannot be dropped.
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by RedOranje on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:32 pm

Let me preface this by saying I was in the middle of an exam during the game and have only seen MOTD highlights (which I'm aware are never an accurate representation of the game) so I will not be commenting on the actual play. Rather I will comment on what I see as some maddening inconsistency to the posting here.



How people can blame Reina for the freekick (or the first for that matter, when he was clearly covering the near post against an on-rushing Bale and trusting his defenders to do their jobs which both Skrtel and Downing failed to do) is beyond me. Nevermind whether the freekick should even have been given.

Wisdom was deemed not-fit for the match. So he started on the bench. Simple. Enrique has been one of our better attacking players since being moved forward, Rodgers was forced to gamble that Enrique as a more forward player with Downing as a fullback would provide enough cover down the left. Given all the talk of how well Enrique tracks back from people on here I'd have expected a bit more understanding on the call, even if you don't agree with it (and to be clear, I don't personally believe Downing should be starting at all). Robinson and Flanagan clearly don't have Rodgers confidence; given Rodgers' willingness to give youth a chance this season I'm inclined to believe there's a reason behind that. So what do we do? Drop one of our better attacker back into defense where he was receiving criticism nearly every match? Force an unfit youngster to come in? Play Agger out wide? Play Carragher at RB? And if Rodgers took one of those options or played 5 at the back (as was suggested) and we lost, can any of you honestly say you wouldn't have complained about the decision (re-injured youngster, lack of attacking intent, poor player choice, etc)? Because on current form I rather doubt it. Not that it matters greatly, but I'd have dropped Enrique back and played Assaidi, if fit... but then at the same time I'm not going to pretend that would have necessarily led us to a win.

And where is the criticism for Skrtel who let Bale past for the first goal and nearly let them in for another later on? Two semi-mistakes may not be much, but it would be consistent with what other members of the club are receiving.

And on that note: Henderson was being praised by more than a few earlier in the past week or two, while Sahin has been repeatedly criticised for his lack of output and influence when he's played. So again, Rodgers has a call to make: play a player who's been looking good in recent weeks or one who has been ineffective when given time (again, going by this forum's judgement)? Or do people wish to make the call that Rodgers should be dropping Gerrard? While on the topic of Gerrard: given all the analysis of how the two midfielders ahead of Allen are supposed to move forward and hold back in turn with each other how is Gerrard's lack of forward movement the fault of the tactics/manager?


Honestly, the game played out about as one would expect... The first goal came from Johnson getting caught up field and Bale exploiting the space behind as Lennon played on Downing's inexperience at LB. The second was simply a very very good freekick from an iffy call that went against us (shock and awe) while our goal came from one of our 12 corners. Otherwise we missed a couple of near-sitters and there were a couple of lucky breaks for Spurs. Seems par for the course with our luck both in recent seasons and since 08/09 at White Heart Lane.


Arq: I don't know where you're getting your possession stats (funny that they're brought up at all given how much most of the forum decries them) but none of BBC, Sky, ESPN, or Opta agree with your assessment about us being out-possessed in half or more of our league games.





Let me close by making some things very clear: I am NOT against criticism/negative anaglysis of any team or player or manager (including LFC and those with the club), nor do I believe that opinions and circumstances surrounding any of the above mentioned cannot change. I AM, however, very annoyed by knee-jerk and inconsistency in said instances. I am further very easily aggravated by claims that portray things seen in hindsight as being obvious ahead of time. It drives me up a wall when someone claims in the same post that a manager should have seen an issue before game that we did not note until the game has been/is being played while at the same time claiming that we somehow know more than said manager about the players he has at his disposal and the tactics he should employ. Either the manager is incompetent and can't figure out his squad despite training with them every day (in which case there's really no reason to expect a good team selection) or he actually has some idea of who he's choosing and why some aren't getting the chance (especially when 4 separate managers have overlooked said play *cough*Pacheco*cough*) and he should probably be given some benefit of the doubt over the selection of [youth] players. Inconsistency seems to plague some LFC posters board almost as badly as it plagues some LFC players.





P.S. This post isn't aimed at Art Morte... for all the times that we disagree it's at least consistent.


P.P.S. As I've written roughly 50 pages in research works of late do not expect significant responses from me for those that reply to this.













P.P.P.S. You're all still awesome lads (except you, IJB Razz ) and I respect every one of you (again, except you IJB Wink ); it simply grinds my gears when there's knee-jerk and inconsistency from match to match; just ask Sepi, who I've blocked on skype before due to lack of patience for it.


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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Arquitescu on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:38 pm

I think Allen can be blamed, I just think he is not as sharp as we need a man in his position to be and I don't really fancy seeing him and Lucas both on the pitch, I see them much more as two players battling for the same position.

Art I have to disagree. Allen playing that position is a square Peg in a round hole. Its putting him in a position in which he wasn't raised to play along with its responsibilities. Him being the DM is a product of FSG and Rodger's short sightedness thinking Lucas would be fit all season yet here is a individual playing a Defensive Midfield role in which he hasn't played in his career. He wasn't brought for this reason.

A dual pivot of Allen and Lucas (if 4-2-3-1) would work since we would hold possession far better and the pivot would compliment each other. It would be very similar to De Jong-Montolivo Dual pivot for Milan which is exactly what can be made for this partnership. Don't you remember how well Allen played when he didn't have to play DM?

As for Sterling my straight answer is Assaidi. At the age of 24 he needs to be played more and has shown more incisiveness and understanding within the box than Sterling as Sterling should be his understudy and not the other way around like it is now. Suso doesn't make the same impact our wide areas flow and keep possession far better since Suso is more composed and has superior passing and vision than Sterling. This also has to be accounted that Suso is a central player. What does that mean? It means Rodger's doesn't have to play wide player since its ineffective or that we don't have the players to do so. I'd go for a formation that isn't carved up and ripped on the counter along with being more centrally focused, narrow with our excellent attacking fullbacks providing the width.


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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by RedOranje on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:39 pm

And now, back to cutting my 20 page analysis of the Generals in the Crimean and 1812 wars down to 8 pages. Sad So many pretty words and so much work going down the drain.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Art Morte on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:50 pm

Well, since I seem to be on a reply-streak, I'll just go ahead and reply to Red-O as well..

@RedOranje wrote:
How people can blame Reina for the freekick (or the first for that matter, when he was clearly covering the near post against an on-rushing Bale and trusting his defenders to do their jobs which both Skrtel and Downing failed to do) is beyond me. Nevermind whether the freekick should even have been given.

I think Reina does deserve some blame. Not all of it, but it didn't take the greatest of free-kicks to score here. To me it was one of those moments when we needed a great goalkeeper to give us a great save and it wasn't there and we're disappointed with that, but not crucifying him.

Wisdom was deemed not-fit for the match. So he started on the bench. Simple. Enrique has been one of our better attacking players since being moved forward, Rodgers was forced to gamble that Enrique as a more forward player with Downing as a fullback would provide enough cover down the left. Given all the talk of how well Enrique tracks back from people on here I'd have expected a bit more understanding on the call, even if you don't agree with it (and to be clear, I don't personally believe Downing should be starting at all). Robinson and Flanagan clearly don't have Rodgers confidence; given Rodgers' willingness to give youth a chance this season I'm inclined to believe there's a reason behind that. So what do we do? Drop one of our better attacker back into defense where he was receiving criticism nearly every match? Force an unfit youngster to come in? Play Agger out wide? Play Carragher at RB? And if Rodgers took one of those options or played 5 at the back (as was suggested) and we lost, can any of you honestly say you wouldn't have complained about the decision (re-injured youngster, lack of attacking intent, poor player choice, etc)? Because on current form I rather doubt it. Not that it matters greatly, but I'd have dropped Enrique back and played Assaidi, if fit... but then at the same time I'm not going to pretend that would have necessarily led us to a win.

And where is the criticism for Skrtel who let Bale past for the first goal and nearly let them in for another later on? Two semi-mistakes may not be much, but it would be consistent with what other members of the club are receiving.

Someone before Skrtel needed to stop Bale. When Bale was 1-on-1 with Skrtel, Martin had the choice to take away the cut-in and the shot or the cross. He chose to prevent Bale from cutting in and he got a cross in instead and they scored. It was a good goal for that part and I'm not blaming anyone in our area, but Bale's run needed to be contained before he made it into the penalty area.

And on that note: Henderson was being praised by more than a few earlier in the past week or two, while Sahin has been repeatedly criticised for his lack of output and influence when he's played. So again, Rodgers has a call to make: play a player who's been looking good in recent weeks or one who has been ineffective when given time (again, going by this forum's judgement)? Or do people wish to make the call that Rodgers should be dropping Gerrard? While on the topic of Gerrard: given all the analysis of how the two midfielders ahead of Allen are supposed to move forward and hold back in turn with each other how is Gerrard's lack of forward movement the fault of the tactics/manager?

Well, I haven't been praising Henderson, so maybe it's a little unfair replying to this, especially since you took the effort to specially mention your post wasn't a reply to me, but I think BR choosing to start Hendo was mostly an attempt to boost his confidence by granting him consecutive starts. I think that was the wrong decision and maybe in hindsight BR might even agree with me. Hendo first missed a golden opportunity to level and then gave away the free-kick on which they scored, so... it's very very difficult to give him good marks after that.


Honestly, the game played out about as one would expect... The first goal came from Johnson getting caught up field and Bale exploiting the space behind as Lennon played on Downing's inexperience at LB. The second was simply a very very good freekick from an iffy call that went against us (shock and awe) while our goal came from one of our 12 corners. Otherwise we missed a couple of near-sitters and there were a couple of lucky breaks for Spurs. Seems par for the course with our luck both in recent seasons and since 08/09 at White Heart Lane.


Arq: I don't know where you're getting your possession stats (funny that they're brought up at all given how much most of the forum decries them) but none of BBC, Sky, ESPN, or Opta agree with your assessment about us being out-possessed in half or more of our league games.





Let me close by making some things very clear: I am NOT against criticism/negative anaglysis of any team or player or manager (including LFC and those with the club), nor do I believe that opinions and circumstances surrounding any of the above mentioned cannot change. I AM, however, very annoyed by knee-jerk and inconsistency in said instances. I am further very easily aggravated by claims that portray things seen in hindsight as being obvious ahead of time. It drives me up a wall when someone claims in the same post that a manager should have seen an issue before game that we did not note until the game has been/is being played while at the same time claiming that we somehow know more than said manager about the players he has at his disposal and the tactics he should employ. Either the manager is incompetent and can't figure out his squad despite training with them every day (in which case there's really no reason to expect a good team selection) or he actually has some idea of who he's choosing and why some aren't getting the chance (especially when 4 separate managers have overlooked said play *cough*Pacheco*cough*) and he should probably be given some benefit of the doubt over the selection of [youth] players. Inconsistency seems to plague some LFC posters board almost as badly as it plagues some LFC players.





P.S. This post isn't aimed at Art Morte... for all the times that we disagree it's at least consistent.


P.P.S. As I've written roughly 50 pages in research works of late do not expect significant responses from me for those that reply to this.

P.P.P.S. You're all still awesome lads (except you, IJB Razz ) and I respect every one of you (again, except you IJB Wink ); it simply grinds my gears when there's knee-jerk and inconsistency from match to match; just ask Sepi, who I've blocked on skype before due to lack of patience for it.

We are all awesome lads and we need to keep faith, but it'd be unreal to expect that results like we've had this season would not arise a reaction from us fans. Here's hoping we go on a little winning streak in our next fixtures.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by RedOranje on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:54 pm

Again, I'd have no real complaints if this had been building but a lot of these criticisms come on the back of praise for the very same players less than a week or a 10 days ago. It's the inconsistency that's gotten to me here, not the criticism itself.

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Don't call me James on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:54 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Its just downright embarrassing how our possession "philosophy" is continually shot to shit when being out possessed by even counter attacking teams then we go on our 2nd half strategy which resembles no formation and shape as the "philosophy" there is just to pressure and attacking mindlessly. We end up getting the goal but where is the discipline? Where is the guile and thought process behind that? Looks like an act of desperation often to me.

This point is by far the most frustrating. Counterattacking teams like Everton and Spurs out-possess us. Ffs the likes of Sunderland, Stoke, and Reading even looked comfortable on the ball against us. You are very right when you say our formation goes to shit when we are in need of a goal. We get so desperate in our search for goals that our attacking system of play turns like a desperate milf looking for a younger prey. Like you say we start hoofing to our midget forwards to no avail.

I've noticed that the team struggles greatly when the game picks up speed. We get destroyed in fast-paced matches. Prime examples being the Everton game where we lost two goals straight away when we couldn't slow the game down after taking a two goal lead. And this Spurs game just proved the point again where we just couldn't cope with the speed of the game and we only took the upper hand when we slowed the pace of the game down a bit. BUT there also a catch here when we slow games down. We look absolutely clueless in breaking down opposition defenses when the pace of the game is slow.

It's a perfect example of catch 22. When the pace of the game is quick we look better in attack and create more chances but our whole system of play goes down the toilet and we look like conceding with every oppositions attack. And when we slow the pace down our system clicks in that we have more possession but our efforts in getting anything in attack are completely futile and all the pressure goes on Suarez's shoulders to pull something out of his ass.



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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Art Morte on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:12 am

Arquitecto wrote:
I think Allen can be blamed, I just think he is not as sharp as we need a man in his position to be and I don't really fancy seeing him and Lucas both on the pitch, I see them much more as two players battling for the same position.

Art I have to disagree. Allen playing that position is a square Peg in a round hole. Its putting him in a position in which he wasn't raised to play along with its responsibilities. Him being the DM is a product of FSG and Rodger's short sightedness thinking Lucas would be fit all season yet here is a individual playing a Defensive Midfield role in which he hasn't played in his career. He wasn't brought for this reason.

A dual pivot of Allen and Lucas (if 4-2-3-1) would work since we would hold possession far better and the pivot would compliment each other. It would be very similar to De Jong-Montolivo Dual pivot for Milan which is exactly what can be made for this partnership. Don't you remember how well Allen played when he didn't have to play DM?

Well, I cannot scream at your face that you're wrong, since I don't really know how it would perform. Just on an idea level it feels to me that it would restrict us too much in terms of going forward if both Allen and Lucas occupied CM positions - they are neither exactly known for their key passes.


Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:
Its just downright embarrassing how our possession "philosophy" is continually shot to shit when being out possessed by even counter attacking teams then we go on our 2nd half strategy which resembles no formation and shape as the "philosophy" there is just to pressure and attacking mindlessly. We end up getting the goal but where is the discipline? Where is the guile and thought process behind that? Looks like an act of desperation often to me.

This point is by far the most frustrating. Counterattacking teams like Everton and Spurs out-possess us. Ffs the likes of Sunderland, Stoke, and Reading even looked comfortable on the ball against us. You are very right when you say our formation goes to shit when we are in need of a goal. We get so desperate in our search for goals that our attacking system of play turns like a desperate milf looking for a younger prey. Like you say we start hoofing to our midget forwards to no avail.

I've noticed that the team struggles greatly when the game picks up speed. We get destroyed in fast-paced matches. Prime examples being the Everton game where we lost two goals straight away when we couldn't slow the game down after taking a two goal lead. And this Spurs game just proved the point again where we just couldn't cope with the speed of the game and we only took the upper hand when we slowed the pace of the game down a bit. BUT there also a catch here when we slow games down. We look absolutely clueless in breaking down opposition defenses when the pace of the game is slow.

Now, I kinda like that part in red :coffee:
My oldest one is 46 - but then again I'm starting to feel somewhat old myself - - what's yours?


Okay, sorry for the terrible over-share, just wanted to lighten up the atmosphere a little..
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Don't call me James on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:31 am

@Art Morte wrote:

Now, I kinda like that part in red :coffee:
My oldest one is 46 - but then again I'm starting to feel somewhat old myself - - what's yours?


Okay, sorry for the terrible over-share, just wanted to lighten up the atmosphere a little..

27 is the oldest I have ever gone Razz It gets trickier from there, although I'm hoping to crack 30 in the near future. always had this weird fetish for MILFs Laughing

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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

Post by Art Morte on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:35 am

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:

Now, I kinda like that part in red :coffee:
My oldest one is 46 - but then again I'm starting to feel somewhat old myself - - what's yours?


Okay, sorry for the terrible over-share, just wanted to lighten up the atmosphere a little..

27 is the oldest I have ever gone Razz It gets trickier from there, although I'm hoping to crack 30 in the near future. always had this weird fetish for MILFs Laughing

We all do, we all do :coffee:
At least once...
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Re: Tottenham vs Liverpool | 28th November 1945GMT | Premier League |

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