Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Nishankly on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:03 am

Its not BR's fault, This is arguably the strongest possible line up from the current squad that we have. The same team won 4-0 three days ago.
His substitutes were actually the best this squad has to offer assuming Assaidi is being ostracized.

Shelvey was just horrible, Suso was decent with whatever amount of ball he had, Stoke defenders never failed to bully him every time he received the ball.
Glen had an on off game, Usual Glen neglecting his defensive duties and suffering from brain freezes in attack. Enrique was the MOM.

Skrtel and Agger, I have noticed always struggle when there is a huge target man up front, Noticed with Benteke, Jones, Cole. Anyways, Unlucky with the goals.

Second goal was man marking, Agger got it wrong, Meh.

Suarez was good, Was the only guy who showed some interest in getting LFC forward. Gerrard was not himself today, Misplaced passes like mad in the first half, Took his goal well, Touch wood.

Stoke is has always been a difficult place to play in, But i expected a better performance. Anyways onto the next game and its QPR away on the 30th, Another shady fixture.

Also i remember the days when Stoke or some scrub team winning against us (usually 1-0) was termed an upset, But now we are being outplayed and massacred with scorelines reaching to 3-1.

4th is 8 points away i guess, And im pretty sure that it'll be much closer in a stage further this season, But let's face it. We (don't deserve it)/(are not good enough).


On a side note, Just something to notice, 19 games 25 points.
#SaveusSturridge.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Art Morte on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:06 am

Positives: We got awarded a penalty and by none else than Howard Webb.

Negatives: We got beaten fair and square.


Nishank wrote:Its not BR's fault, This is arguably the strongest possible line up from the current squad that we have. The same team won 4-0 three days ago.
His substitutes were actually the best this squad has to offer assuming Assaidi is being ostracized.

Line-up fine, tactics and formation ugh.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Nishankly on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:08 am

@Art Morte wrote:Positives: We got awarded a penalty and by none else than Howard Webb.

Negatives: We got beaten fair and square.


Nishank wrote:Its not BR's fault, This is arguably the strongest possible line up from the current squad that we have. The same team won 4-0 three days ago.
His substitutes were actually the best this squad has to offer assuming Assaidi is being ostracized.

Line-up fine, tactics and formation ugh.

I dont think there was any other formation we could have tried with this line up.
One option was playing Coates as well, ie with 3 CB's. Could have worked as Stoke have no pace.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Don't call me James on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:10 am

To be fair to Webb, he is the best ref in the PL. That is when he's not a biased c*nt.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Arquitescu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:57 am

Completely outplayed, outclassed by Stoke at Brittania. So what else is new? Rodger's for all his potential is quite tactically naive in many ways. This isn't knee jerk. This is me acknowledging that this very talented manager lacks the experience to make decisions to either adapt or at least prepare well for games. Unlike vs Fulham we actually were pressed, harrowed and embarrassed by a very impressive Stoke City who were compact, disciplined and organized which represented the opposite of what we were today. I find it amazing how we were mentally just beaten right from the get go and couldn't retain possession (possession that counts ie. past our own midfield). Stoke just pressed us perfectly from the beginning and in the same philosophy that dictates on how to pass around these situations we just succumbed right into the pressure.

What also bothers me is for the umpteenth time this season we have had our CB partnership stretched, bullied and embarrassed by a lone physically gifted target man e.g Benteke, Lukaku, and Kenwyne fraking Jones today). Our coaches who organize the defence obviously don't have a clue the difference between Zonal and man marking as their isn't any clear sense of the play. Our CBs one moment go help the fullbacks and the other moment they are tracking back trying to fill the exposed gaps. Its a far cry from what Clarke had our defence do last year. Agger for his sheer consistency had his worst game of the season and Skrtel wasn't much better. Thankfully our fullbacks did a fine job but then again would you really be tested by such a narrow Stoke?

Lucas also had his worse game since coming back as I seemed to see Spearing and not Lucas as its clear he needs time to recover, get back into full fitness. His marking and screening of the midfield was non-existent and just couldn't cope with Stoke's excellent pressing. Gerrard showed composure and defence yet was tasked with a role deep in which he had to defend and clearly did not suit him. Downing as I predicted came down back to earth and became the Stewart Downing we know and love by doing his best houdini impression. Suso, just like Sterling is showing he is too inexperienced for such games as it didn't help playing vs a physical side like Stoke along with being out of position. Suarez as usual was at the heart of everything making our attack look better than it is, yet all the reliance on him is severely causing him signs of obvious fatigue.

I'd like to have a special mention for Jonjo Shelvey. I've been meaning to say this for a long time now. Since he came to Liverpool he received hype beyond belief for all his potential and talent in which I too was fooled into believing. So far I have stayed quiet and believed that since he is only 20 and is gaining experience that he'll one day show us why he was so coveted. Yet so far I haven't seen anything to shout home about. Aside from his powerful shooting, off the ball movement and occasional moments of flash what I have seen is a player with atrocious touch, poor passing, little technique (yes, poor technique), little influence on the games and close to no footballing IQ. I won't write him off just yet but its hard to really give faith into a player who hasn't really impressed aside from a few goals and fitting well into the team due to tactical deficiencies of need. I'm sure a few others on this section will agree with me as Dani on chat described him as an awful player as well. Doesn't know where and when to move along with any sense of timing. I'll hold my judgements of him when he comes good for us and not in the Europa League. I really would like to see him benched. Had enough about hearing of him and his potential spawned from god knows where. For all the stick Henderson gets I'd prefer him to start over Shelvey anyday since his decision making, passing and footballing IQ is a whole lot better than Shelveys. Most of you are facepalming but the fact is I've had this sentiment towards Jonjo the whole season now.

All in all we deserved to be out played judging by our set up and mentality shown here. I mean the plan was all laid out for Pulis here who simply had to press and counter a possession based team who hasn't found any chemistry or nous to form a complete and cohesive attack. How did he not see this? Our goals are coming from individual brilliance these days and we've yet to see consistency in actually creating ideas through the midfield and transcending into the attack as it should be now. Team in transition? Yes. Ambitious manager needs more time? of course. Yet we need to see a little more consistency and evolution from Rodgers now as for every game its one step forward and two steps back/Rant.


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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Natalie Portman on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:10 am

Beaten fairly by the better team

Rodgers' tactics, team selection and substitutions were terrible.

He needs to stop being so naive, or he won't last long

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Arquitescu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:16 am

Harry Redknapp wrote:Beaten fairly by the better team

Rodgers' tactics, team selection and substitutions were terrible.

He needs to stop being so naive, or he won't last long

You while I really want Rodgers to succeed and truly believe that he is full of bright ideas, tactics and pure ambition, he is showing that the experience is the missing component to catalyse it. Quite obviously he is in the nascent stages of his development of a managerial project as large as Liverpool's (which is larger than we all think due to our circumstantial pressure). Its his naivety that bothers me most. In some forms he takes risks (which I admire him for) and others he doesn't take the risks he needs to. Sometimes he trusts his players all too much and others he doesn't.

Deep down I know that this Tiki Taka style simply isn't mean to work in a league which doesn't give much freedom to such open footballing ambitions. The PL just isn't that league whether we'd like to believe it or not. Worse thing is we don't have the squad for that as of now which either is a frustration or a consolation.

He needs to show some tactical variability. And no that doesn't mean scrapping one plan for a completely different plan without any structure e.g Football manager tactics. I support the man all the way yet he has a long way to go.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Art Morte on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:24 am

@ Arq

Shelvey's passing is good and technique pretty fine, imo.
But he's not able to keep the ball or do much with it in tight spaces, that shows against defences like Stoke's. I still want to see him getting regular games because he offers something a little different from the likes of Henderson and Allen.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Helmer on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:30 am

But surely, shelvey isnt the guy (not still) to play in midefield in games such as stoke. Sub shelvey n bring suso in midfield, that could hav been one of the option today, but not sure how it would hav worked out given the inexp of suso

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Art Morte on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:31 am

Oh well, it was always a tough ask to go there and come away with the points.

We've got QPR away next, West Brom went there today and won, after that it's Sunderland at Anfield. Win those two games and the table should look a little better again.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Don't call me James on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:33 am

Don't get ahead of yourself there Morty. Aston Villa match was very winnable. So was this Stoke game. I hope we just take it one game at a time.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Arquitescu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:33 am

@Art Morte wrote:@ Arq

Shelvey's passing is good and technique pretty fine, imo.
But he's not able to keep the ball or do much with it in tight spaces, that shows against defences like Stoke's. I still want to see him getting regular games because he offers something a little different from the likes of Henderson and Allen.

I can agree with Technique which is above average at best but not with his passing let alone the vision to make a certain pass. The fact that he offers something different is the only reason we tolerate him. Its a same cause and effect process with any player who will be appreciated just because he is standing out whereas the fact is he is more detrimental to the system than contributive. Shelvey certainly is more noticed than Henderson and while I appreciate a player who doesn't have a meek Downing mentality, yet that doesn't qualify you to ignore the basics of football and not able to make the most simplest of decisions/passes. Henderson at least is keeping a tidy midfield, keeping it ticking, flowing and being the cog we need to keep the philosophy in what is a possession ball playing system. Shelvey on the other hand doesn't seem to know where to run and when and where to pass. When he is confused then he unloads a hit and hope long range shot which if goes in, gives him more time to give prevent us from seeing what is poor general play from him. Maybe its poor form or just poor development yet truthfully told I just cannot see what everyone has been raving about him since he came to us from Charlton. The fact that he is labelled the new Gerrard makes it even worse given their similar characteristics at the same age. Fact is Gerrard was twice the player Shelvey was at his age and didn't lack of footballing IQ. I've always said he should be played attacking midfielder yet my doubts creep on me given his poor control in tight spaces and how he completely freezes when pressured. He doesn't have that guile needed.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Natalie Portman on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:38 am

Rodgers for me is a bit clueless for a number of mind-blowing decisions he's made:

- Sahin: I wonder if he had ever even watched him play ? In summer, we either needed a goal scoring midfielder or a Lucas back-up. Sahin is neither. He has come, and Rodgers has barely (if ever) played him in his natural position. Has Rodgers even ever watched Sahin play in his natural position ? Playing him as a #10 is like playing Lucas on the wing. Now completely ostracized, what a waste of resource

- Henderson has been very under-played in the league. the first 2 months of the season aside, he's out-performed both Allen and Shelvey, and yet he can't buy a start. He has energy, speed (our fastest midfielder), and height. Something we badly lack in the midfield. We are a much more balanced team with him

- Rotation: Rodgers absolutely sucks at this. Having seen Agger-Skrtel being dominated by big target men like Cole, and Benteke...he goes to Stoke, and plays the exact same partnership that has proved to be naive against big target man. What's the point of Coates then ??!!

- Suso being subbed tonight was baffling. It's amazing that no matter if Suso is our best player or worst, he is always first to be subbed. He was one of our better players in 1st half, yet he was hauled instead of Shelvey who had an absolute stinker. and It was extremely predictable for me.


Brendan isn't learning from his mistakes, and it's worrying.
It's been a terrible first half of the season, and we need improvements. yes, the squad isn't amazing, but he isn't getting the best of it either. He needs to learn from his mistakes, and quickly

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Helmer on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:42 am

My concern is, if BR plays with such a midfield, what Jan window additions (goal scoring wingers) can actually contribute...????

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Arquitescu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:52 am

- Sahin: I wonder if he had ever even watched him play ? In summer, we either needed a goal scoring midfielder or a Lucas back-up. Sahin is neither. He has come, and Rodgers has barely (if ever) played him in his natural position. Has Rodgers even ever watched Sahin play in his natural position ? Playing him as a #10 is like playing Lucas on the wing. Now completely ostracized, what a waste of resource

Harry, mate I agree with you on this as Sahin being played out of position quite frankly is disturbing. Whats even worse is Sahin is being played advanced while Gerrard (we both know his true position) is being played deep. My guess is Rodger's logic was to utilize Sahin's control in tight spaces and excellent final ball. Yet, what Rodger's hasn't realized it takes a different type of footballing mind and movement to excel as a #10 compared to a DLP. Both are difficult and not easier than one another. As we know Sahin played in a dual pivot 4-2-3-1 in Dortmund and was the chief playmaker from the back and had the side built around him. If Rodger's gave Sahin a little more freedom or least build a midfield around him we would have seen someone who is very talented and proven be quite a lot more influential than what he has been. I'm not upset at this since Rodger's did deserve some experimentation yet whats bothering me is how Sahin has barely played. My benefit of the doubt goes to Sahin's broken nose or some injury in training to why Sahin hasn't played recently. You may correct me on this.



- Henderson has been very under-played in the league. the first 2 months of the season aside, he's out-performed both Allen and Shelvey, and yet he can't buy a start. He has energy, speed (our fastest midfielder), and height. Something we badly lack in the midfield. We are a much more balanced team with him

A little harsh on Allen there mate. He was forced to play a dual tasked role to which wasn't natural for him and did it with discipline and diligence. He didn't do the best job playing as the anchor yet we WILL see a better Allen when with Lucas and when he is finally rested. Shelvey I agree on as quite frankly he is garbage. Hendo if you don't know has been one of my favourite Kenny signings as I highly rate his footballing IQ and passing. I agree he should be played more especially ahead of Shelvey he is doing f**k all.


- Rotation: Rodgers absolutely sucks at this. Having seen Agger-Skrtel being dominated by big target men like Cole, and Benteke...he goes to Stoke, and plays the exact same partnership that has proved to be naive against big target man. What's the point of Coates then ??!!

Straight out of my mouth what I said in the previous page here Harry. Personally I fault it down to the first team coaches but I agree how Coates has been ostracized has been nothing short of disgraceful. Whats even worse is we play Carragher out of sympathy ahead of Coates just so he can reach his bloody 500 apps, in the process stunting Coates' development.

I also want to know if you think we should have played a 3 man in this game. Personally that is what I would have gone for.

- Suso being subbed tonight was baffling. It's amazing that no matter if Suso is our best player or worst, he is always first to be subbed. He was one of our better players in 1st half, yet he was hauled instead of Shelvey who had an absolute stinker. and It was extremely predictable for me.

Harry mate personally I never would have played Suso in such a game anyway for obvious reasons as the physical battle would be too much for him. I agree he shouldn't have been subbed on but what bothers me is him playing completely out of position as a wide right. Its like playing..Silva in the same position eh?


All in all not learning from mistakes is either a sign of pressure getting to you or just trusting in your core decisions. Its probably a mix of both from Rodgers. I don't know whether you support Liverpool or not but I do ask some patience to give Rodger's until good time in the 2nd half of the season to judge how he will fare. As we know the 1st half of the season especially of a new manager is used for experimentation to build on something bigger.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Don't call me James on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:59 am

Arq, Harry Redknapp is Sepi Very Happy

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by Art Morte on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:06 pm

Skrtel and Agger had a poor game, but they are our best CB partnership and also our strongest Cbs. They both lost the physical battle in the first goal, but the next two goals it was just bad marking. I wouldn't mind seeing Coates get a start, though.

Yes, Sahin should get his chance in his natural, deep-lying role. Although Gerrard plays pretty well there, too, he really knows his long-range passes (most of the time anyway).


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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

Post by RealGunner on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:30 pm

I don't think going 4-3-3 away to stoke was a wise decision personally.

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Re: Stoke vs Liverpool | 26th December 1945GMT | Wednesday | Premier league |

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