Valencia vs FC Barcelona

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:00 pm

Come on guys, yes it was Valencia, but the fact that (penalty aside) we only had one shot on target the entire game speaks volumes. It was a bad performance and the problem is tactical (that one person to make a shot on target was Villa, surprise surprise). Roura later said that the team was tired, well who's fault is it that the first eleven rarely changes? My patience with him is thinning. This kind of thing gets you kicked out of the CL.

And yes Valencia has never been an easy team to beat, but this season they're weaker than others, and it's really not an excuse for only challenging the keeper once in 90 minutes from play.


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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by The Franchise on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:01 pm

LOL I was with you untill you said Messi on the right and 3 CL's Laughing

Both will never happen.

But on this game, quotes from Roura.

"There is no doubt that we come into this after a very tough match in Madrid.

“Our showing in the first half cost us, and Valencia had a great intensity in the second, playing higher up the pitch, from a physical standpoint.

“As always, we came with the intention of winning, but what happened was we found it difficult at the Mestalla and, in the end, a draw is fair enough.

"We lacked intensity in the first half. We lacked depth in the second half; we had three or four very clear chances. Overall, we did not have the freshness of other games, but it's understandable. "

Is this guy trolling us or what?
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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:09 pm

"we lacked depth in the second half" Well why don't you use substitutes you silly man?! Mad

I wish he didn't seem so content with the result.

Also, Ever :bow: what a player :bow:

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by windkick on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:18 pm

Bringing in Thiago with 2 minuets left isn't gonna cut Roura Smile

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by free_cat on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:18 pm

@danyjr wrote:
@free_cat wrote:You are tiring.
Yeah, no one is allowed to criticise Pedro in your presence. But I do when he plays crap and tonight was one of those nights. I dare say Valencia fullbacks made more contribution in attack than the supposed 'winger' of yours. Sign of worry? Obviously not to you, he's flawless. I'm not blaming Pedro for Barça's poor performance. First of all Valencia played a great match and Barcelona got tactics all wrong. With that Roura at the bench, prepare for more tactical blockades in the incoming matches. Has he even got a coaching certificate because he seems tactically inept.

Also, Puyol as a CB >>>> Mascherano as a CB. That is not even worth debating.

Nothing to do with Pedro.

You are very tiring because before every game you come here to 'warn' us of how difficult our next match/run of games. In the unlikely event we don't win, you then come to criticize our team and point out everything as we were rubbish. Oh, and other teams are always giving us lessons according to you.

Don't know why you care so much of a team you hate, neither why you have a Barcelona goal in your sig.

It's just tiring. Very.

pd. Pedro was mediocre today, but why the need to single him out. Why not single out far more important players than him and who were also mediocre today such as messi, xavi, iniesta?

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by futbol on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:40 pm

@The Franchise wrote:LOL I was with you untill you said Messi on the right and 3 CL's Laughing

Both will never happen.

Obviously Messi on the right is never going to happen because he has to be the main man and it maximizes his individual potential. However it doesn't maximize the potential of the team. This current team has only 1 consistent goal threat by design and it's hurting the team. I'd rather have a Falcao caliber in the middle scoring 30+ and Messi scoring 50+ from the right wing instead of Messi in the middle scoring 80+ and Pedro and Sanchez doing nothing but running around and "working hard". It might work against most of the 18 La Liga teams. It doesn't work against better teams in bigger games. A backline consisting of Essien, 19 year old Varane, 50 year old Carvalho and Arbelola has managed to mark Messi out of the game and restrict him to 1 shot all night long. The worst Chelsea side in the Abramowitch era has managed to keep Messi away from goal for 180 minutes. A mediocre Milan side in 4 games last season has kept Messi quiet from open play (2 draws, 2 losses on penalties from Milan's point of view). His goals against Mourinho's Madrid are penalties or freekicks. In 5 La Liga games + 4 Copa del Rey games against Madrid he has only scored 1 goal from open play (down to a huge Pepe brainfart). The false 9 system is figured out for a while now. The lack of money in La Liga is just papering over the cracks (Malaga, one of the top 6 teams in La Liga, had to sell another of their better players to Arsenal). Once Messi gets crowded out in the middle, you have to rely on Alba, Fabregas, Sanchez or Pedro to deliver. None of them are consistent goalscorers. Hence why games like the last Clasico or Chelsea games are happening where chances are being created but no one finishes because no one is a finisher.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by danyjr on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:48 pm

How is criticizing a team synonym to hate? I'm sure I've said plenty of nice stuff about Barcelona as well, besides I don't need to say those because others here say it anyway. I think you just love Barcelona too much that everything negative I say about them sounds like hate to you.

Why I don't single out Messi or Iniesta is because these guys perform on a consistent basis while Pedro hasn't played two good matches in a row this season.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by danyjr on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:54 pm

futbol, one of my favourite posters since the first post you made here!

I have to say however I'm not so sure on Messi on the right. The fact that he doesn't do much defending work makes him useless when pressing. Having Falcao added (not exactly a hard-worker) will not exactly help the case either. Suárez?

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by The Franchise on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:56 pm

@futbol wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:LOL I was with you untill you said Messi on the right and 3 CL's Laughing

Both will never happen.

Obviously Messi on the right is never going to happen because he has to be the main man and it maximizes his individual potential. However it doesn't maximize the potential of the team. This current team has only 1 consistent goal threat by design and it's hurting the team. I'd rather have a Falcao caliber in the middle scoring 30+ and Messi scoring 50+ from the right wing instead of Messi in the middle scoring 80+ and Pedro and Sanchez doing nothing but running around and "working hard". It might work against most of the 18 La Liga teams. It doesn't work against better teams in bigger games. A backline consisting of Essien, 19 year old Varane, 50 year old Carvalho and Arbelola has managed to mark Messi out of the game and restrict him to 1 shot all night long. The worst Chelsea side in the Abramowitch era has managed to keep Messi away from goal for 180 minutes. A mediocre Milan side in 4 games last season has kept Messi quiet from open play (2 draws, 2 losses on penalties from Milan's point of view). His goals against Mourinho's Madrid are penalties or freekicks. In 5 La Liga games + 4 Copa del Rey games against Madrid he has only scored 1 goal from open play (down to a huge Pepe brainfart). The false 9 system is figured out for a while now. The lack of money in La Liga is just papering over the cracks (Malaga, one of the top 6 teams in La Liga, had to sell another of their better players to Arsenal). Once Messi gets crowded out in the middle, you have to rely on Alba, Fabregas, Sanchez or Pedro to deliver. None of them are consistent goalscorers. Hence why games like the last Clasico or Chelsea games are happening where chances are being created but no one finishes because no one is a finisher.

Yes, you can pick out 4-5 games in 5 years where it didnt work and I could show you all the titles we did win in that time.

Messi aint going wide, he shouldnt and he wont..I think you should just accept that.
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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by Zealous on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:03 am

I honestly think Messi would be easier to stop if he started playing wide again.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:10 am

No he would be harder to stop - because he would have more space - but he would be less effective because he's limited to only working one side of the pitch. If you have a passmaster like Messi on your team then you should give him complete freedom to pass to both sides, not just the right.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:14 am

@Zealous wrote:I honestly think Messi would be easier to stop if he started playing wide again.

Of course, Messi isn't the problem rather the width of the team and the fact everything is too crowded.

Drop Cesc for Villa and the problem is solved.



You see here if Iniesta is in the middle and Villa and Pedro are stretching the play it comes a whole different ball game.

Also fullbacks not beyond the half way line? poor show :coffee:

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by futbol on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:15 am

@The Franchise wrote:
Yes, you can pick out 4-5 games in 5 years where it didnt work and I could show you all the titles we did win in that time.

Messi aint going wide, he shouldnt and he wont..I think you should just accept that.

I haven't cherry picked anything out of the past 5 years. I have picked the biggest games in the last 2 or so seasons. ALL Liga Clasicos under Mourinho. ALL Copa del Rey Clasicos under Mourinho. Last season's CL quarter-finals and semi-finals. Games against Leverkusen, BATE Borisov or Plzen didn't interest me.

You can show me all the titles Barcelona has won. Do it.

Treble when 3 world class goalscorers were playing upfront (Eto'o + Henry + Messi).

Liga + CL double when 2 world class strikers were playing upfront (Messi + Villa).

Only the Copa del Rey when 1 world class striker was playing upfront (Messi).

That's how things stand so far.

Also I don't understand your "you should accept it" stance. I am accepting it. Laughing Pointing something out doesn't mean you're not accepting it. Everyone and his dog knows Messi has to be the main man and he's not going to change his position for the good of the team.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by The Franchise on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:16 am

Im with Zeal.

He would get more 1 v 1's so then it would be easier for him, but they would very rarely give him 1 v 1's...they will send 2-3 guys against him with him with nowhere to go. If you send 2-3 guys at him now he can pass left or right to space.


On the right has to go against a natural defender, the sideline...if 2 players come at him, one from the side and the other in front, where is he going go? To his weak right side, going away from goal and towards the sideline.

Its easy to send 2-3 players over and "box" him in. He also no longer is in goalscoring positions, so say goodbye to record breaker Messi.

Not that it matters anyway...he wont ever stay right, he will play the exact same way...he will stay in the middle, leave that side completely bare.

Anyone who wants to see Messi on the right, go look at when we had Ibra...he wasnt on the right at all and he wont be now. It would be even more dramatic now too, he wont track back the leftback, let alone go over to press him.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by futbol on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:18 am

@Zealous wrote:I honestly think Messi would be easier to stop if he started playing wide again.

Wrong thinking. It's not about "would Messi be harder to stop". It's about "would Barcelona be harder to stop". The answer is obvious. Falcao + Messi vs. Alexis Sanchez + Messi. Laughing

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by Zealous on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:18 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:No he would be harder to stop - because he would have more space - but he would be less effective because he's limited to only working one side of the pitch. If you have a passmaster like Messi on your team then you should give him complete freedom to pass to both sides, not just the right.

More space but only if the other team lets that happen and even then like you said his greatest asset (his passing) is limited out wide because his passing options decrease. That in and of itself makes him easier to deal with.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by The Franchise on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:20 am

@futbol wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
Yes, you can pick out 4-5 games in 5 years where it didnt work and I could show you all the titles we did win in that time.

Messi aint going wide, he shouldnt and he wont..I think you should just accept that.

I haven't cherry picked anything out of the past 5 years. I have picked the biggest games in the last 2 or so seasons. ALL Liga Clasicos under Mourinho. ALL Copa del Rey Clasicos under Mourinho. Last season's CL quarter-finals and semi-finals. Games against Leverkusen, BATE Borisov or Plzen didn't interest me.

You can show me all the titles Barcelona has won. Do it.

Treble when 3 world class goalscorers were playing upfront (Eto'o + Henry + Messi).

Liga + CL double when 2 world class strikers were playing upfront (Messi + Villa).

Only the Copa del Rey when 1 world class striker was playing upfront (Messi).

That's how things stand so far.

Also I don't understand your "you should accept it" stance. I am accepting it. Laughing Pointing something out doesn't mean you're not accepting it. Everyone and his dog knows Messi has to be the main man and he's not going to change his position for the good of the team.

No, you picked the biggest games we didnt win.

You didnt pick the MANY MANY more games we did win this way.

Where did Messi play vs Man Utd both finals? Middle.

The teams title, they have come with him in the middle flanked by two forwards.

And why dont you understand? I am simply saying, there is no point going on about Messi playing other positions..aint ever going to happen.

We can talk about Cesc coming out of the side, Barca buying a centerback and a myriad of other issues we have talked about in this section..because they have at least some legs to them, they in theory could happen.

Messi going back to the right is an impossibility and a waste of time talking about it.
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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by Onyx on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:24 am

Under Pep Barca were more impressive. It was rare to create a chance against them. They look more human this season.

In terms of the lineup, Villa needs to play LW and Pedro at RW. Xavi and Iniesta CM. No Fabregas. If Pedro and Villa don't perform, sell Villa and Sanchez in the Summer and get another inside forward.

Also Puyol is the starter this season. However since he's getting older, I think Barca need to buy a solid WC CB. Also Alves has been a bit inconsistent this season.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by Zealous on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:26 am

@futbol wrote:
@Zealous wrote:I honestly think Messi would be easier to stop if he started playing wide again.

Wrong thinking. It's not about "would Messi be harder to stop". It's about "would Barcelona be harder to stop". The answer is obvious. Falcao + Messi vs. Alexis Sanchez + Messi. Laughing

1) You haven't signed Falcao (or anyone for that matter) so discussing him now isn't really relevant to Barcelona's issues (I think they're minor issues but that's just me lol)

2) The two questions you asked are linked to each other. It's the "tax" for having such a great player, you are harder to stop when he is, full stop. Now getting everything else right seems to be the problem. Having a player like Messi (or Cristiano for us) means that essentially you have to surround him with good role players, not players who depend on output like Falcao for example. You think Falcao is going to drift wide to avoid stepping on Messi's toes? Do you think Falcao is going to push Messi off the ball and take a shot to score?

Wanting a guy who's game revolves around out put to partner a guy who's game also revolves around output makes no sense to me, especially when Barca have more glaring holes in need of plugging.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by futbol on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:31 am

Actually my main point wasn't that Messi has to be shifted out wide if you read between the lines. My main point was that this team needs another world class striker. Since most strikers however are centreforwards, the second thought would be to alter the system a bit. "Messi out wide" doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to hug the touchline anyway. Just like Iniesta isn't hugging the touchline when he is playing "wide". Ronaldo is coming from wide positions and drifting centrally and scoring 60+ goals in a season alongside another proper centreforward. Why is this a problem for a player who is superior in every aspect of the game?

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:35 am

@Zealous wrote:More space but only if the other team lets that happen and even then like you said his greatest asset (his passing) is limited out wide because his passing options decrease. That in and of itself makes him easier to deal with.

He would have more space regardless. In the center he has two CBs and a DM to deal with usually, on the right it's usually just a LB with some support from the CB, and if they choose to mark him with 3+ guys then Barca is good enough to take advantage of the space gaps this generates.

Also disagreed that his passing is his greatest attribute. Finishing + dribbling definitely up there.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by The Franchise on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:42 am

@futbol wrote:Actually my main point wasn't that Messi has to be shifted out wide if you read between the lines. My main point was that this team needs another world class striker. Since most strikers however are centreforwards, the second thought would be to alter the system a bit. "Messi out wide" doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to hug the touchline anyway. Just like Iniesta isn't hugging the touchline when he is playing "wide". Ronaldo is coming from wide positions and drifting centrally and scoring 60+ goals in a season alongside another proper centreforward. Why is this a problem for a player who is superior in every aspect of the game?

It dont matter, we could have the best striker you can name...if the coach plays Cesc and Iniesta wide, it matters none.

Villa right now starting the majority of games would be more than enough. Early in the season we was smashing teams, we were scoring tons of goals, because we had 3 real forwards (Tello started games, Alexis)..we let in a ton, but thats because we didnt have defenders.

Now we have defenders back, we have become predictable going forward as we dont have any forwards.

As I said, dont matter who we sign if Cesc going to play all the time. Villa right now would be enough to take over.
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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by CBarca on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:52 am

Messi in a central position far far far >>>>>> Falcao.

In this particular situation you are speaking of, the problem is to fix the RW, not to move Messi over there and buy Falcao for the middle. Why take arguably the greatest player of all time and move him somewhere where he becomes more limited?

But that's not even the problem here.

The problem has been done to death and I hope it is fixed soon for our sake. Fab needs to stop playing, Iniesta back in the middle, Villa or Tello out wide.

We lack width on the left and we become compact. You saw immediate difference when Fab went off.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by Zealous on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:57 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Zealous wrote:More space but only if the other team lets that happen and even then like you said his greatest asset (his passing) is limited out wide because his passing options decrease. That in and of itself makes him easier to deal with.

He would have more space regardless. In the center he has two CBs and a DM to deal with usually, on the right it's usually just a LB with some support from the CB, and if they choose to mark him with 3+ guys then Barca is good enough to take advantage of the space gaps this generates.

Also disagreed that his passing is his greatest attribute. Finishing + dribbling definitely up there.

But like Franchise said you forgot the natural defender in all of this, the touchline. He'd have to deal with the LB (and there's no guarantee he gets by him all the time) a CB will more than likely be keeping an eye out but he won't venture too close. The DM would be the one sweeping near the LB, so now you have 3 guys who don't really have to stray too far from normal positions + the touchline, I like my chances in such a situation. You say the the rest of Barca will exploit the space but ... how? If the ball with Messi on the wing he realistically only has one outlet pass and that's back to Alves or Xavi especially if the other team sit deep. He's not going to cross the ball (lol) so it doesn't matter if the other side of the pitch has gaps, the ball won't get there fast enough.

In the middle it's a much more different story.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:52 am

I suppose I see the logic in that and agree to an extent, but speaking from empirical experience I've seen Messi be shut more in the center than in the wing, at least that I can remember.

In any case I completely agree that Messi should be played centrally and that Barca don't need another CF as long as he plays there.

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Re: Valencia vs FC Barcelona

Post by The Sanchez on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:16 am

Off Topic: Xavi ruled out for Spain because of hamstring injury.
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