Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by Donuts on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:31 am

I do not think tito did a very well job before his illness.
we had a record starting la liga season but honestly that achievement could be completely random considering the teams we played and we never looked decent when we played Madrid, which other then Milan they are the only world class club we played.
our tactics have been odd idk if we should blame our players or tito.. maybe both?

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by CBarca on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:07 am

iirc every time we played Madrid earlier in the season we had a ridiculous makeshift defense due to injuries.

It's only natural against their offense we didn't look like world beaters.

I think it's harsh on Tito to say he didn't do well because of that. We played some marvelous football this season, despite the injuries.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by Donuts on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:28 am

I disagree back then people viewed us as boring because we were sure winnings, we ever rarely looked like we were going to lose now it's like every match is a challenge.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:07 am

@Donuts wrote:it would make more sense to start playing Barta Surprised i don't think we have seen enough of him play.

I wouldn't mind. Give him a chance. Start with weaker opposition and then if he is doing really well use him against tougher opponents as well.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:08 am

@windkick wrote:
1. Neither. I don't like the idea of world class players sitting on the bench. Cesc was a captain of a top 4 EPL Club. Silva was a starter with los Che. At this time, Isco was just a prospect getting zero mins, of course nobody would of known he would of turned out to be a beast and I think it's to late to nab him now. So now, we should of scouted for a young prospect like that. Iniesta still has too many good years left to put a top world class player to "under study" him

Thiago is perfect and already ours to understudy Xavi

2. We should start playing Barta allot more and see how he holds up. I think he is more our future and we should start to give him time. Masch is faster than Puyol but the decision making and tactical awareness edge, and leadership still goes to Puyol by a HUGE margin. Masch should get sold in the summer at this point

windkick, thanks for a very nice reply.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:10 am

@BarcaKizz wrote:Someone was saying sell Alves? He was easily our best defender...

Agreed completely. Maybe even our best player on an utterly hopeless night.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:18 am

@The Franchise wrote:Nah, Pedro aint up to his old standards and I dont think he will ever be, but he is still servicable and if we rotated correctly wouldnt be a big problem.

Alba on the other hand is a big problem because he is below our level at every aspect of the game other the occassional the overlap run.

Horrible defensively both positionally and the 1v1, even worse in the air, too busy asking for ref decisions to hustle and keep plays alive (that stuff with Di Maria in the corner was infuriating), gives the ball away because he takes too long to make a decision and on top of that, a better player is sitting on the bench watching him.

dani, excellent post but I have one question. Why do you think Pedro will never be back to his old standards? Far too many young players fade after the initial promise. Bojan if anything is in a worse state for example. What do you think went wrong with Pedro that will be very difficult to correct? On the same lines my gut feeling is Sanchez will never be even close to a world class player again.


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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:19 am

@The Franchise wrote:Yes, Adriano is a much better player. I knew it long ago, before we even signed Alba and my opinion has only grown since we signed the Catalan.

Alba is faster, but Adriano is still one of the fastest players in La Liga, its not like he himself is struggling...then add up he has a right foot, he generally makes the right decision on the ball, he can shoot or cross with either foot and is much better defensively...if he wasnt injury prone, I would be almost as upset about him not playing over Alba as Cesc over Villa or even Tello.

Well said.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:22 am

@The Franchise wrote:The only mistakes from Adriano I remember were when he was playing centerback...hardly his fault, so yeah I agree.

Just now I was trying to recall when Adriano did wrong and this is so true.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:23 am

@sportsczy wrote:alba, arbeloa and cesc are the 3 players that make Spain NT very beatable nowadays. Ramos, Capdevila and villa were exponentially better in those positions obviously.

Good point.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by CBarca on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:26 am

I'm not worried about Sanchez. I feel he's a man that lost his confidence and is playing in a system that doesn't suit him. Sometimes you see these players that go to a club and it doesn't work out, so they go back to their original club and do well again- Chygrinsky (sp?), for example. While I don't see Sanchez going back to Udinese, I think it's a similar situation.

Sanchez just didn't fit the Barca glove well enough and he lost his confidence partially because of that, injuries, and bad luck. It's unfortunate, but it happens.

But the upside to that is if he moves on to another club that fits him better, he can gain his confidence back (as it comes and goes for players) and hopefully have some better luck with injuries. All of the things that have gone wrong are fixable, which is why I'm not at all worried for Sanchez as a player.

I think if he moves on to a club better suited for him, he'll become quite the player again, he'll look like his old self.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:26 am

@The Franchise wrote:
Abidal was a fantastic player, shame what happened to him. But we arent going to find someone of his level, or better than Adriano very easily.

Very true. Let me just say Abidal is one of the corner stones of the greatness of Pep Guardiola's team. In Graham Hunter's book the entire starting eleven of 2010-11 has been heavily commended and pretty much every one of them deserve it completely.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:28 am

@Zealous wrote:I mean if we're going to be really harsh the last truly great signing you made was Alves and to a lesser degree Adriano.

We must replace Adriano with Pique in your statement.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:32 am

@The Franchise wrote:
I dont like any of those defenders though, and im tired of us prioritising defenders with ability on the ball over actual defence. I dont like Hummels and dont think he would be that good. I would rather someone in the mold on Mangala, we need more athletic ability all over the pitch...especially the back and the front.

Interesting thoughts - gives me more to ponder on. Please elaborate on Mangala as the name does not sound familiar to me.





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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:33 am

@CBarca wrote:
I think it's harsh on Tito to say he didn't do well because of that. We played some marvelous football this season, despite the injuries.

I will say that Tito did well but whether he could have been truly great or not we may never know.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:35 am

@CBarca wrote:I'm not worried about Sanchez. I feel he's a man that lost his confidence and is playing in a system that doesn't suit him. Sometimes you see these players that go to a club and it doesn't work out, so they go back to their original club and do well again- Chygrinsky (sp?), for example. While I don't see Sanchez going back to Udinese, I think it's a similar situation.

Sanchez just didn't fit the Barca glove well enough and he lost his confidence partially because of that, injuries, and bad luck. It's unfortunate, but it happens.

But the upside to that is if he moves on to another club that fits him better, he can gain his confidence back (as it comes and goes for players) and hopefully have some better luck with injuries. All of the things that have gone wrong are fixable, which is why I'm not at all worried for Sanchez as a player.

I think if he moves on to a club better suited for him, he'll become quite the player again, he'll look like his old self.

CB, interesting thoughts but I think you are ignoring the other side of the argument. Perhaps 50% of the times what you say happens but in the remaining cases players just never recover their confidence and their erstwhile level no matter where they play. Also please elaborate a little more what kind of system will suit Sanchez more. Maybe something in which he is the main forward and doesn't have to play second fiddle to a genius like Messi.


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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by CBarca on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:56 am

My knowledge on the type of system Sanchez thrives in is limited due to only watching him with Chile, and not at all with Udinese. I tried to watch some videos on youtube of him when we bought him to get more of an idea, but those aren't worth going off of, most of what I know of the system he works in is based on other posters knowledge. Mole is a great person to ask this question.

My understanding is that Sanchez was a SS and the main man in Udinese given a free creative role. He would often go wide, but in no way was he constricted to the wing. This is in stark contrast to at Barca where it is paramount for wingers to stay wide for the most part and stretch the defense (if that is disputed, please see our recent performances with Iniesta on the wing and Cesc in the middle Laughing). Not only this, but he was given no creative free role, and he was not the main man. If this wasn't hard enough, Udinese from my understanding often worked as a fast paced, at times counterattacking side.

Sanchez has done OK, but it's clear that his role here at Barca is very different than it is at Udinese or even Chile.

It is possible for Sanchez to not recover confidence and not be his old self again, that is surely possible, and we as Barca fans have seen this first hand in a youngster named Bojan. But with the talent Sanchez has, I don't doubt his ability to be a star again, not only this- but he has actually shown signs of doing well for us despite the obvious differences I've pointed out before...unfortunately for him it seems that every time he starts to play well, he'd get injured and everything would start all over again (one also has to note that injuries affect a players confidence as much as missing an open goal might).

If these factors can be fixed if (more appropriate to say when, probably) he moves away, then I have no doubt he will be a great player once again. Sure, there is that chance he won't, but I personally back him to do so.

@messixaviesta wrote:
@CBarca wrote:
I think it's harsh on Tito to say he didn't do well because of that. We played some marvelous football this season, despite the injuries.

I will say that Tito did well but whether he could have been truly great or not we may never know.

I think Barca will stick with him so we will get to know. I think it's important to judge Tito on the games he has been here, and not on the games he's been absent. In the games he's been here, he's helped us win the league tremendously and we've played some mouthwatering stuff in the meantime (play, I might add, that was looking like 08-09 at points). I think what's happened to us recently is awful but I do not look at Tito for it. I think I agree with the management in keeping Tito (I assume that is what they will do) and I think we'll be able to start our judgement of Tito again. I feel it will be positive. What's happened is merely unfortunate for everyone involved.

Damn cancer seems to have an agenda against Barca.

Also, Mangala plays for Porto, JD. That's all I can say though, I've not seen enough of him to judge. I've probably seen as much of him as I saw Sanchez before he came to Barca.

Anyone who has more knowledge regarding Sanchez pre-Barca (*looks at Mole*) feel free to come in here and immediately dispute any information I've given that isn't correct, because my knowledge of Sanchez pre-Barca is limited and as said I'm mostly going on what I've read.

Pleasure talking to you JD. I hope you start being around a bit more than just when we have an important loss or victory (typically the former Razz knowing you!)
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by The Franchise on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:31 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Nah, Pedro aint up to his old standards and I dont think he will ever be, but he is still servicable and if we rotated correctly wouldnt be a big problem.

Alba on the other hand is a big problem because he is below our level at every aspect of the game other the occassional the overlap run.

Horrible defensively both positionally and the 1v1, even worse in the air, too busy asking for ref decisions to hustle and keep plays alive (that stuff with Di Maria in the corner was infuriating), gives the ball away because he takes too long to make a decision and on top of that, a better player is sitting on the bench watching him.

dani, excellent post but I have one question. Why do you think Pedro will never be back to his old standards? Far too many young players fade after the initial promise. Bojan if anything is in a worse state for example. What do you think went wrong with Pedro that will be very difficult to correct? On the same lines my gut feeling is Sanchez will never be even close to a world class player again.



I doubt we will see the old Pedro again but the worst thing that can happen to a role player happened to Pedro, he realised how good he was.

He doesnt make those runs as frequently anymore, he comes towards the ball, likes the ball at his feet, wants to join in.

He excelled previously because he had a simplier outlook on the game, he made runs, he defended, he finished chances...now, he seems to think he is Luis Figo or something.

Alexis? He will be fine, in fact when he goes somewhere else I suspect we will see a much improved Alexis. He has probably learnt alot at Barca, when he gets his confidence back and gets to play in a team where its easier for him, I tihnk he will be good again.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by The Franchise on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:34 pm

JD, Mangala is a French centerback who about 6 months ago cemented his place as Porto's best centerback and probably the leagues best.

Incredibly mobile, physically strong and jumps as high as anyone I seen in recent time.

A real defender who defends first, second and third.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:43 pm

Every day I agree more and more with danyjr's assessment that Pedro is a pivot in the wing. I'm not sure what you guys see in him because what I see is someone he merely passes the ball back, stays back, doesn't challenge the line (he lets Dani do this most of the time). He's a hard worker but right now I prefer both Alexis and Tello starting over him.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by worms on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:44 pm

@CBarca wrote:You're acting like Dani Alves is a defensive liability just because he pushes up on offense, though.

That's not the case, that's what makes Alves so good. Alves for as far forward as he gets has never been a defensive liability because his ability to get back or to force a turnover higher up the pitch (if it was on his side). In times that he might have been too far up and there was a potential counterattack, our great pressing ability would often nullify a potential counterattack before it happened.

I'd agree with you if Alves was constantly not back far enough and the right side was exposed because of it, but that's not the case.

Oh, and he's still the best RB in the world. Sell him? rofl

Lahm is better now.

I say sell Alves while we can still get good money for him,he will only decline further from now on.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:04 pm

@CBarca wrote:My knowledge on the type of system Sanchez thrives in is limited due to only watching him with Chile, and not at all with Udinese. I tried to watch some videos on youtube of him when we bought him to get more of an idea, but those aren't worth going off of, most of what I know of the system he works in is based on other posters knowledge. Mole is a great person to ask this question.

My understanding is that Sanchez was a SS and the main man in Udinese given a free creative role. He would often go wide, but in no way was he constricted to the wing. This is in stark contrast to at Barca where it is paramount for wingers to stay wide for the most part and stretch the defense (if that is disputed, please see our recent performances with Iniesta on the wing and Cesc in the middle Laughing). Not only this, but he was given no creative free role, and he was not the main man. If this wasn't hard enough, Udinese from my understanding often worked as a fast paced, at times counterattacking side.

Sanchez has done OK, but it's clear that his role here at Barca is very different than it is at Udinese or even Chile.

It is possible for Sanchez to not recover confidence and not be his old self again, that is surely possible, and we as Barca fans have seen this first hand in a youngster named Bojan. But with the talent Sanchez has, I don't doubt his ability to be a star again, not only this- but he has actually shown signs of doing well for us despite the obvious differences I've pointed out before...unfortunately for him it seems that every time he starts to play well, he'd get injured and everything would start all over again (one also has to note that injuries affect a players confidence as much as missing an open goal might).

If these factors can be fixed if (more appropriate to say when, probably) he moves away, then I have no doubt he will be a great player once again. Sure, there is that chance he won't, but I personally back him to do so.

@messixaviesta wrote:
@CBarca wrote:
I think it's harsh on Tito to say he didn't do well because of that. We played some marvelous football this season, despite the injuries.

I will say that Tito did well but whether he could have been truly great or not we may never know.

I think Barca will stick with him so we will get to know. I think it's important to judge Tito on the games he has been here, and not on the games he's been absent. In the games he's been here, he's helped us win the league tremendously and we've played some mouthwatering stuff in the meantime (play, I might add, that was looking like 08-09 at points). I think what's happened to us recently is awful but I do not look at Tito for it. I think I agree with the management in keeping Tito (I assume that is what they will do) and I think we'll be able to start our judgement of Tito again. I feel it will be positive. What's happened is merely unfortunate for everyone involved.

Damn cancer seems to have an agenda against Barca.

Also, Mangala plays for Porto, JD. That's all I can say though, I've not seen enough of him to judge. I've probably seen as much of him as I saw Sanchez before he came to Barca.

Anyone who has more knowledge regarding Sanchez pre-Barca (*looks at Mole*) feel free to come in here and immediately dispute any information I've given that isn't correct, because my knowledge of Sanchez pre-Barca is limited and as said I'm mostly going on what I've read.

Pleasure talking to you JD. I hope you start being around a bit more than just when we have an important loss or victory (typically the former Razz knowing you!)

CB, some wonderful thoughts. Nothing to debate here as such but wait and watch. One point that I have in mind is what's the chance Tito will have a clean bill of health. If he does then very likely he stays but if he doesn't then can we afford the kind of situation that happened this season once again?

Thanks for the praise man. As always its simply wonderful talking to you.

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:08 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
I doubt we will see the old Pedro again but the worst thing that can happen to a role player happened to Pedro, he realised how good he was.

He doesnt make those runs as frequently anymore, he comes towards the ball, likes the ball at his feet, wants to join in.

He excelled previously because he had a simplier outlook on the game, he made runs, he defended, he finished chances...now, he seems to think he is Luis Figo or something.

Alexis? He will be fine, in fact when he goes somewhere else I suspect we will see a much improved Alexis. He has probably learnt alot at Barca, when he gets his confidence back and gets to play in a team where its easier for him, I tihnk he will be good again.

dani, very interesting thoughts.
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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:10 pm

@The Franchise wrote:JD, Mangala is a French centerback who about 6 months ago cemented his place as Porto's best centerback and probably the leagues best.

Incredibly mobile, physically strong and jumps as high as anyone I seen in recent time.

A real defender who defends first, second and third.

dani, thanks for the info. Sounds great. So he impresses you as much as David Luiz did in his Benfica days?

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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by The Franchise on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:17 pm

Lahm better than Dani Alves Laughing

If Dani Alves gets beaten half as much as Lahm I would demand he take a seat on the bench.

Sell him? Who would you replace him with? Whoever you name, isnt as good..and even if they were, they without question dont provide the things we get out of Alves, in terms of pressing and setting the tone for pressing, composure with the ball and general ability on the ball be it passing or whatever you want to name.

Anyway, JD. Tough question..very different players.

Mangala is a better all around defender, better in individual duels, more sound and reliable..also a better athlete than Luiz, who is no slouch himself.

Luiz is better with the ball, no doubt..better passer, more comfortable in posession...if Luiz could recognise when is the time to pass, when is the time to dribble and when is the time to kick it out of play, he would be near flawless in that aspect of the game.

So its hard to say...also, I saw Luiz for 3 years, Mangala just 1 year.

In terms of actual defensive skill, I think yes Mangala impresses me as much as Luiz at the very least, probably more so.


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Re: Copa del Rey | SF (Second leg) | FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:20 pm

@worms wrote:I say sell Alves while we can still get good money for him,he will only decline further from now on.

I say a club should be business like to an extent but not completely. You don't try to sell any stalwart and key player just because he is aging and you can still get good money for him.

Alves is one of the key corner stones of Pep Guardiola's all time great team whose contributions to its greatness are kind of immeasurable. You don't throw out such players. They either retire here or leave on their own terms.

Xavi is even older. Would you sell him even if some club fancies him to become their equivalent of Pirlo at Juventus and is ready to pay good money for him? Hell we'd sooner fall at his feet and beg him not to go.

BTW just a reminder our club motto is 'More Than A Club'. Even a normal club would not be so hard nosed and we are more than a club.





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messixaviesta
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