Article on the Hijab

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Article on the Hijab Empty Article on the Hijab

Post by Cruijf Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:53 pm

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/03/01/wearing-hijab-the-ultimate-form-of-feminism

I was recently out for dinner with friends, and as we came to pay our bills, the manager of the restaurant timidly asked us, “Why do you wear those scarves on your heads?”

It’s a fair question. As Muslim women, my friends and I welcomed the inquiry.

When I was younger, I always explained it in a way that satisfied my fairy tale obsession: I was veiling my beauty so the man who falls in love with me would love me for who I am, not how I looked.

I pictured myself, and all the brave women in my life, as princesses awaiting their one true loves to rescue them by admiring their intellect and independence.

It wasn’t until I was much older that I understood the true complexity of the garment.

The hijab, as it is called in Arabic, is more than it appears on the outside. According to the interpretations of the Qur’an, a Muslim woman is meant to cover everything except her hands and face, and is required to wear loose and modest clothing.

But the true meaning of the hijab goes deeper than a woman’s wardrobe choices. Wearing the hijab means applying its principles to every aspect of your lifestyle.

The true principles beneath the cloth are ones based in humility. As women, we should learn to take pride in the things that truly matter; beauty fades, so why hitch your wagon to a crashing cart?

The hijab taught me to take pride in such qualities as my strength as a woman and my ability to have a conversation about human rights and international law. My appearance? Doesn’t make the top 10 list. I know that there is more to me than the labels I’m wearing. And in a consumerist society, labels are regrettably important.

By wearing the hijab, a Muslim woman is not only declaring her faith to the world, but also symbolically rejecting Western norms and expectations. It is the ultimate form of rebellion and, dare I say it, feminism.

A common misunderstanding is that young Muslim women today are given little to no choice when it comes to the decision to wear the hijab, and unfortunately in a post-9/11 society, the media feed on these stories and perpetuate the stereotype. I would never belittle these women and the situations in which they find themselves, but perhaps the most frustrating moments in my life are when I am approached by individuals, good intentions and all, who ask if I was forced to wear the hijab. Ironically, they try to save me, like the princesses with whom I used to compare myself.

What they don’t understand is that by wearing the hijab, especially in a community that finds it foreign and frightening, I have learned to stand on my own two feet. I have learned to be articulate about my faith and confident in my choices. It is the ultimate symbol of strength in the face of a secular society.

Hope you guys learn a bit from this.
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Post by FalcaoPunch Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:44 am

It's devotion and I respect that.

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Post by rwo power Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:51 am

Well, here's the counter argument to this. Unfortunately the video it refers to doesn't seem to exist anymore, but the arguments sound as if they were pretty much directly addressed to the above article.

Crunchy Cds:

All my reasons are ignoring the base argument "Well Allah commanded us to" I'll save that for my 100th reason when I get to it because I don't want this to be an argument about whether or not Allah exists. I'm going to make a video of this sometime. I'm trying to make my reasons as neutral as possible and I'm not trying to actively dissuade women from wearing one but re-evaluate their reasons.

Why am I doing this? This lady :finmad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nn7S9zcFSs
Made me really upset and I make this video in defense of women who are non-believers and for women who are Muslim but do not wear hijab, or niqab.

So this is what I have so far:

100 reasons why I don't wear a hijab


1. I am not a diamond, pearl or precious gem to be hidden.
To call me those things is an insult as those are material items, man gives value to then fight and kill each other over. To call me that is not flattery. May other things in life are beautiful that are not covered, like flowers, the stars, the sunset. No one fights or dies over those things.

2. I have male friends who look out for me. In the society I grow up in, most men have
appropiate manners and know how to treat all ladies with respect hijab or not. The ones
that don't get their asses kicked by the latter. If I wore a hijab I admit that it's my fault how a man acts towards me, unfairly shifting all the blame. No thanks, little boys should grow up knowing how to treat their mamas and sisters better.

3. I'm smart enough to choose not to follow social trends that encourage women to
excessively flaunt their bodies. I dress for comfort not to belong to a group. Stop blaming society for your own actions. Think for yourself.

4. To avoid religious arrogance. I don't want to flaunt how devote I am or look down on other women who don't follow suit.

5. [Imagine the stereotypical slutty American woman portrayed here] Not all Western women dress like this. Stop using extreme cases to promote your point.
I as a Western woman find women who dress like this obnoxious as well and I don't have any friends who dress like this.

6. What is a proper hijab or not? Niqab, just head scarf, can't let your ears show, or your neck show, can't wear colors it attracts men like bees, over the chest, not over the chest is fine. What? There is a debate over this I don't wish to be caught up in.

7. Clothes that go with the hijab. I rather just wear what's comfortable, especially when it's hot. In some cultures you can be subjected to punishment or community scorn when you don't oblige. Why?

8. I like pants, I can run fast when there is trouble. Even long dresses seem restricting since I can't move my legs far.

9. Apparently I can do anything I want in a hijab, doesn't mean I won't be reprimanded for it later. (Like riding a bike) Wearing a hijab is a symbolic responsibility and you must act according. No thanks

10. Self defense is better for protection and pepper-spray. Cloth doesn't offer any protection if a man is really desperate all that will just come right off. Now, fighting back and getting help that will fight for your side, is better. What I was wearing does not become an issue.

11 I am accepted by society as dressing modestly in a jeans and t-shirt, no need to cover my hair too

12. In my society hardly anyone stares at me for what I wear, now if I were to wear a head scarf, I'm going to get extra unwanted attention. I don't need anyone questioning me if I am oppressed or not. And even if I was in a society which accepted it, I don't want to appear like a push-over.

13. My hair itself a non-issue, I decide whether or not I wish to spend a lot of time on it. No one forces me to. Today I'll just brush it a little and ties it back. Quick and simple. Covering it up for the purpose of not worrying about it makes no difference for me.

14. Covering myself doesn't stop some men from mentally undressing me in their minds. Just as sick. Whenever I catch any man looking at me, I give them the eye and they cast their gaze down knowing that they are the one doing wrong. On the same token most men walk right past me not even caring.

15. I don't understand the argument that if a woman has the right to wear a bikini as a right to wear niqab. Bikinies were created for practical reasons for the use of swimming so women don't drown wearing heavy clothing like they use to. The exposure of skin is for easier swimming. Some women take a step further but most of us just want to swim. You don't wear a bikini in public where there is no water around that is just silly.

16. Both Hijab and Non-Hijab women can get raped and have been. There is no clear discretion. Also you can't argue that non-hijab women get raped more. In my society non-consual sex, or any kind of sexual assualt is rape, even if it's from your own husband. Marriage dos not equal rape immunity. We should avoid this by being educated, smart and careful and looking for the signs of a possibly abusive men.

17. I'm an indiviual responsible for my own actions. A hijab does not technically stop me from doing anything what would be considered immoral. I don't wear one and I can and do make smart choices to avoid negative consequences basised on being educated.

18. Respect isn't something you just feel it's something you receive from others. I don't wear a hijab and I get respect from both men and women. Why because I'm intelligent and treat them with respect as well, not because of what I wear. You can get respect both with a hijab and without one, at least in my country.

19. "People who are friends with you because of the way you look aren't real friends. And people who judge you by your personality are true friends, because people can change looks but they don't really change personalities." Argument presented by a pro-hijab woman.

Then why is it that women who are Muslim who decide not to wear a hijab are ostracized. Her personality hasn't changed? But she is still judged, based on what she wears and possibly punished. Hypocritical.

20. Internal modesty is more important external modesty. Don't need a hijab for that.

21. Aparently high divorce rates in the West are used as an argument for hijab. Why is divorce used as an argument? Is it aparently entirely a woman's fault if she gets a divorce or is left a single-parent? It takes two people to make a good marriage, not one. Hijab is not going to help me to have a happy marriage if my partner is not going make a commitment as well.


22.Prevents pre-maritial sex. Your commitment to your faith, beliefs and self-control ultimately prevents pre-martial sex not what you wear. Women have upheld this belief without hijab or what she wears, but more by what she does.


23. Sex symbol, Well those women chose to live that sort of life. I don't agree with it any more than you do. However I do not believe that by not wearing a hijab automatically makes me a sex symbol. That is just as extreme as saying a woman who wears a hijab is oppressed.

24. On the topic of Opression. Aparently a hijab is freedom while western women are enslaved to society. Some women choose to be a slave to society, some of us with a brain don't, no one forces us to think in a certain way we have the option to ignore it if we wish. However, if you ask a woman to remove her hijab she cannot for many reasons. The word Freedom should not be thrown around lightly if it can't be followed through.

25. Nuns wear one too. Nuns are a small minority in the Christian community who decide not at childhood, or puberty to wear a habit but, as an adult who is aware of their decision to devote themselves to God. I haven't been approached by any nun who wants me to dress like her, and she shows me and everyone love and respect still. This is frequently not the case the hijab since it is an expectation not choice.

26. It is my understanding that if you wear a hijab you are frowned upon for not getting married and staying at home to raise your children. I really respect and admire housewives, but I do not think that women should not be expected to if they do not wish to. I don't want any expectations based on what I wear.

27. Prevents lust. We all have lust, men a little more than women. . Clothing does help yes, like a top and pants, but not necessarily a hijab specifically. In my society due to understanding and education, there are ways to avert this lust so that it does not develop into something harmful. If you are a man watching this I encourage you to turn to education and science for understanding and of controlling lust instead of the supernatural and blaming women.

28. Covering my face. Inconvient for seeing, and eating both which are important.

29. Hijab does not garunantee a lasting marriage. Happiness and mutual respect does. What's the point if a wife wears a hijab and the husband is fooling around with other women, or is abusive emotionally or physically. It takes two to make a good marriage not the commitment of one.

30. I couldn't wear a hijab and then watch as other women are punished or beaten for not wearing one, or not dressing appropiately with one on. That is cause for concern. Women aren't beaten or punished for what they wear in my society.

31. 75% of the worlds's women do not belong to the religion or cultures which wear one, so why should I? It's been this way for years.

32. I like swimming on the beach. You can argue that their are full coverings which enable me to swim but they aren't functionally effective. And even those are still not widely accepted.

33. Men can still grope you through clothing. Naive to think other wise. I've read the stories.

34. I don't want men to immediately look at me as a potential wife just because I look pious and nothing more beyond that.

35. If hijabis get so much respect, why is it so hard for a woman in a hijab to be respected enough to become a leader. Rarely will a hijab woman give orders to men. I don't think wearing a hijab is going to get me anymore respect beyond secondary roles. I have a better chance becoming a leader without a hijab than in one. I want true respect to the point that both men and women will look to me for inspiration and guidance.

36. If wearing hijab immediately has an effect of making you humble and withdrawn and quiet. It's the same thing as being succumbing to being servient. I'm loud, outgoing, I speak my mind and I don't want that to be suppressed. You put things on restraints on animals to calm them down and control them, not people.

37. A majority of my male friends say even though they might be attracted to specific women, they want someone they are compatible with and share the same interests. I keep a look out for these type of guys and I steer clear of the ones that don't think like that. Hijab doesn't help me distinct between the good guys and the bad guys.

38. In the West women fought hard for equal rights to do simple things just like leaving the home unattended, going to universities and running businesses. If you live in the West you enjoy these opportunities by women who did not wear hijabs, but instead traded their long skirts and head coverings for pants. I am proud of these women and I do the same.

39. Wearing a hijab would be an insult to those same women who fought for women to be seen by men as equals first and women second. You say a hijab doesn't stop you from doing things, your right it doesn't. But you only enjoy those privileges because of efforts made by women in history who did not.

40. If I'm worried about guys looking at my hair, or people judging me based on my hair I can just cut it. Or wear a hat which are enjoyed by both men and women, with no religious or symbolic attachment. Why wear a hijab with such a heavy burden and expectations.

41. If you are worried about how society thinks about you, aim to change society not yourself. By wearing a hijab you are running away from the problem not solving. Let's teach our boys to treat all girls with respect, and teach girls that they are not judged based on what they wear, hijab or not they will be loved and accepted regardless.

42. A hijab to me seems no different from putting a paper bag over your face. I would not wear a paper bag over my face. So why should I wear a fabric bag over my face

43. Men in modern society are attracted to women for other reasons besides their hair. That's an old fashion attraction from thousands of years ago.

44. I don't want men pretending to act all nice and polite because of what I wear. I appreciate men who act polite all the time period, and if they only act polite in the presence of a hijab what they really are like? I don't like men who act nice to some women and then abuse others, based solely on what they wear. It's just as shallow.

45. Hijab ensures a woman's fidelity... but not a man's. Is this anything to be proud of? Divorces in my country also happen because the men are caught in a moment of weakness and cheat. Western women don't like being shared or abused. We value ourselves more than saving face in the eyes of society.

46. I feel good about myself everyday thanks to all the love I've received and learning about confidence and self-esteem. The women used for sex and dress for sex appeal usually suffer from a lack of love, attention and self-esteem not because of what they choose to wear.

47. Hijabs was not a woman's idea, but a man's idea. Also there are many men push for women to wear the hijab. Suspicious?

48. We don't walk around naked because it makes others uncomfortable, so why should you wear something which makes the people around you uncomfortable. It's the same common courtesy. I've learnt to be considerate towards people, even make some compromises this is how we ensure peace. I'd do the same if I was in a country where I had to wear a hijab, but by being truly free I can remove it once I return home without problem or debate.

49. Hijab is not the only way to fight society's expectations for women to be beautiful. In the West there were and are movements where women do not cover themselves and hide, but instead dress in a way to defy the stereotype, such as hair dying, wearing different styles of clothes that do not seek to gain attention in a sexual manner but aim to counter high fashion. I prefer to fight using these styles than cloaking myself.

50. Men are not bees and are not attracted to women who wear bright colors.

51. I don't believe in being at fault simply because of what I wear. It is not right that a woman who is raped, sexual abused or even killed is blamed simply did not cover her hair. It is a sad lack of basic human empathy and compassion. A non-hijabi woman would feel sympathy for her while some hijabi woman lack any kind of compassion based on her feelings of justice.

52. Wearing one to not worry about bad hair days... Being lazy is fine but that is not a reasonable argument. You could wear a hat.

53. Hide from the public and not be noticed. Well you can hide conceal your idenity by wearing sunglasses as well. In fact I can argue that sunglasses work better than hijabs because they hide your expressions and your eyes. So technically when you talk to someone they are not looking directly into your eyes. Also sunglasses hide your identity from the general public if you wish to go unnoticed.

54. Where ever you live blending into the crowd is a good way to go unnnoticed.

55. Modesty comes in many forms, not just a headscarf and long dresses. If you live in the West it is accepted by both men and women that dressing in simple clothes can be considered modest. You can't impose your views on what is and isn't modest here just like we can't impose what is and isn't modesty in other countries. This depends on the collective ideas of a community not an individual.

56. Humans have a natural instinct to do what is necessary to survive, like eating, sleeping, finding shelter etc. There is no natural human instinct that compels a woman to cover her hair. This is something that is taught and what is widely accepted depending on where you grow up. Many women who have never seen or heard of covering her hair would never even bother had it not been taught. No divine insight or intervention. In fact some tribes women go bare breasted which goes hardly noticed by the men who are use to it.

57. Everything we need to live is found in nature. Hijabs aren't natural but are produced by man to serve puposes besides protecting the skin and staying warm like regular clothes.

58. I don't believe in fear or any kind. Fear is a negative emotion, it makes you feel bad and is associated with oppression. Fear is nothing to be proud of. You fear things that are bad and harmful for you. You fear things you don't fully understand. Science, education and knowledge has cured man's fear of many things and will continue to do so.

59. Women don't rape themselves. Therefore the burden cannot be solely on them to prevent it.

60. In other religions emphasis is focused on what you do, not how you appear. Therefore by not wearing one, should not be a big deal. Most religious attire is mostly seen as a formality not as a necessity to prove one's self or be accepted. UNLESS you are in a specific religious role but it is not imposed as a follower.

61. Why do you keep picking on the West. No one talks about countries like Japan or China whose women don't support covering up either. Their divorce and rape rates are lower than the US. You can't use a single country for your arguments when there are many others with the same ideologies and different statistics.

62. Clothes sole purpose were invented to protect ones self from the natural elements. Human instinct. Other than we are born naked, and without shame until pointed by others. This is proven by old tribes living today who wear the bare amount of clothing without shame or concern. I couldn't imagine the logic in an article of clothing beyond that.

63. I've actually read all the arguments of why I should wear one and I don't think they are a logical and have little reasoning. Some points are good but, they also are not friendly for everyone and the strongest reason is based on inner belief and some misinformation on psychology, not science or the real world where it is implemented.

64. It's disputed as a cultural practice not a religious practice. If it were a religious practice it would be consistent like a nun's habit, however it is not and is worn depending on where you live.

65. Just because a woman shows her hair does not mean she wants to show off. Just as I don't assume a woman who wears a hijab is forced to wear one, she has no right to tell me I show my hair to get attention from boys.

66. Not all men or boys are even capable of rape based on their conscious and human empathy. If all men were sex-crazed maniacs and dangerous it would be logical to put them under control, not women who would be the victims.

67. Contraceptives prevent pregnancies better than hijabs. They cover the more important parts. Hair doesn't get you pregnant.

68. Family honor is a non issue in my society. We live like this because most believe every individual is responsible for his/her action and others are not to carry the burden. Therefore whether I wear a hijab or not I bring no shame to anyone because no one in my society cares. When no one cares, well no one cares and it no longer becomes an issue.

69. In my society women who are considered dirty and are unclean can always have a second chance to live differently without persecution. The hijab is there to protect because once you are considered unclean and dirty once you can almost never recover in the eyes of society, forever ostracized and never forgiven without some kind of severe punishment.

70. Even men here will give 'tainted' women a second chance for better or for worst. Having a pure virgin woman is no longer a male fantasy or dire concern here, mostly just personality. She doesn't need to wear a hijab or a appear pious to be wanted.

71. Colors are associated with happiness while dark colors imply and promote negative feelings. Basic psychology and color theory look it up. Some coverings don't allow for colors, which I believe promotes a negative mood for those around you.

72. Some women cannot wear one for medical reasons.

73. If a man wants my attention I just tell them straight out NO NOT INTERESTED! I don't need a hijab to speak for me when I have a tongue for talking and a strong voice.

74. Hijab does not prevent women from being lesbians and those can be sexual encounters as well. Women can be watched lustfully by other women. It'd be naive to think otherwise.

75. I can choose not to like a hijab aestheically just as much as I choose I don't like wearing shorts, or some other article of clothing. This is based on purely personal preferences and aesthics. Aesthics which can include dressing modestly in other ways.

76. Just because women who dress in skimpy outfits or expose their skin does not mean they are beautiful.Not every man considers a woman in skimpy clothing more attractive and wants to jump her skin. This is a common misconception from lack of understanding of the opposite gender. You can be almost naked and just..honestly not attractive in the eyes of some men. Most actually men don't care about what women wear. The ones that do are just shallow and obviously look for nothing more beyond how a woman controls her sex appeal, hidden or not.

77. Women cheat because they are unhappy and seek happiness elsewhere not because of what they wear. You must wear a hijab for your husband. Any man who gives me this lame excuse is going to be too lazy to make me happy enough to want to stay with them. Shame on men promoting hijabs to avoid actually working to make their partners happy, even though their partners work hard to make them happy.

78. I don't wear hijab, nor do I wear make up. I always believed natural beauty is best, so does suddenly that make me better than a women in head covering with lipstick and eyeshadow. No. But I'm mentioning two different sides of demonstrating natural beauty and modesty. Which proves it's choice not what you wear over your hair.

79. Women in the west usually value their happiness and comfort first. I'm not sorry if this seems like a horrible horrible thing. If we are unhappy with something, we don't do it. No need to seek to guidance from someone to convince us that something will make us happy. You seek usually guidance when you are unhappy, not the other way around.

80. The history of where the hijab and niqabs orginated from. A pagan tradition from before Islam. This is never discussed, talked about or even researched sadly. After investigating its history I've come to certain conclusions, that it is not even religious but cultural trend that was adopted and passed down.

81. I don't wear a hijab because every woman is my sister, not just because of what she wears.

82. I don't want to wear a hijab because that is one less thing to fight about in my case.

83. You argue that the countries with women who don't wear hijab have high rapes. Well at least in those countries women can get justice if they get raped and not shunned. The societies where women fall victim to rape in a hijab or not do not get justice or sympathy. That's nothing to be proud of. Blaming the victim is considered heartless in my culture.

84. Aparently, any misfortune that comes to a woman who does not wear a hijab is deserved. Any misfortune to a woman in a hijab is a test she must past. A logical fair person like myself cannot accept these terms.

85. Hijab is a choice. The definition of choice is between two things, therefore by claiming it is a choice you cannot argue with those who decide for the second option of opting out of a hijab. If not wearing a hijab is not an option then it no longer becomes a choice but compulsion.

86. Hijab is a right. Rights are also not enforced, therefore is also my right to NOT to wear one.

87. Wearing a hijab is like being a walking religious billboard. Some people like myself do not wish to announce his or her beliefs to the world. So we do it out of privacy and respect to others who do not share our views.

88. Women in the West use to wear head coverings, then we got rid of them for a reason. I believe in the course of history, it's important to look at history so we don't repeat the same mistakes in the future, and remember why we changed our way of thinking.

89. Pointing to the US with high rape. The only reason why you can point to the US with their high rape statistics is that women are not afraid to come forward report being abused by a man, unlike in other countries it cannot be reported because the woman will be punished for it instead. Punishment for reporting rape in Saudi Arabia is lashing. Nothing to be proud of. Reporting a rape in the US is confidentiality and genuine help by both men and women. Numbers and pride aren't our priority, the victims are.

90. Children without fully developed womenly features get raped. When this is the case what good is a hijab and excessive covering for female parts that aren't developed yet. Are little girls responsible for men lusting for them too?

91. Western women rather carry a sword to fight, not a shield to hide.

92. In the West handsome men are also shown off in magazines and advertising to sell products as well, should they wear hijab too? You can't argue equality when women have a physical hijab and men have only comply with a mental hijab.

93. Improving moral character of society as a whole. If that is your concern, it is done by what you do not by what you wear.

94. A hijab improves a woman's worth. You give worth to gold, and money not people. I am not a commodity to be assigned a worth.

95. I've listened to both sides of the aruguement of why women should wear one and why they shouldn't. And I've come to agree with the latter bcause it works with the society I live in and my beliefs. It is my understanding that women who 'choose' to wear one can only listen to one source and ignore the other in order to decide.

96. Whether women act like men or not makes no difference in this society because that is the meaning of being equal. In my society very little is considered male only therefore, what would be considered male behaviour is now ignored.

97. Liberated definition - " Showing freedom from social conventions or traditional ideas." Hijab is a social tradition. If one decides not to wear one is that not considered liberation? You can't argue a women is liberated from traditional ideas, BY a traditional idea.

98. There are other more dangerous sins other than Lust. Such as Gluttony, Greed, Wrath, Envy Vanity and yes even Pride which is associated with the hijab. The desire to appear more important than others. I am a non-believer aren't I?

99. Because that girl was killed for not wearing a hijab. I'm not going to wear something proudly when people are killed in a dispute over it.

100. 'Because Allah told us to and it is written in the Qu'ran'

Well with my 100th point you have won. Because once something is written in a Holy book it cannot be disputed or questioned not even by science. Everyone has a right to believe in what they wish to believe in, but if you must prove a point with spiritual reasons, I will make a case against it.

Source: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16771.0;wap2
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Post by 7amood11 Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:34 am

Absolutely nothing wrong with wearing a hijab. It should be more accepted by other societies.

And rwo, those 'reasons' are complete bs.
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Post by rwo power Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:40 am

7amood11 wrote:And rwo, those 'reasons' are complete bs.
Are they really? From a modern female viewpoint they are 100% spot on.

I think more the reasons in the first article are just utterly brainwashed. I'm glad I live in a society/culture where I won't be whipped or beaten or otherwise punished for not complying to some impractical tradition on what to wear.

And by the way, why don't men veil themselves, too, if this is so nicely pious and modest?
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Post by 7amood11 Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:53 am

rwo power wrote:
7amood11 wrote:And rwo, those 'reasons' are complete bs.
Are they really? From a modern female viewpoint they are 100% spot on.

I think more the reasons in the first article are just utterly brainwashed. I'm glad I live in a society/culture where I won't be whipped or beaten or otherwise punished for not complying to some impractical tradition on what to wear.

And by the way, why don't men veil themselves, too, if this is so nicely pious and modest?

Complete ignorance. There are few Muslim countries in the world where wearing a veil is required by law, and those countries make up only 5% of the Muslim population.

You obviously haven't been around much in your life.
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Post by rwo power Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:48 pm

Well, even one country where a woman is punished for not wearing a veil is one too much.
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Post by la bestia negra Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:46 pm

hijab should not be worn by force that's just wrong IMO

some of the points pointed out by RWO are 100% correct

Article on the Hijab Cartoon_hijab8
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Post by Cruijf Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:47 am

67. Contraceptives prevent pregnancies better than hijabs. They cover the more important parts. Hair doesn't get you pregnant.

Clearly we have a sane and rational thinker writing these reasons :facepalm:
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Post by Bellabong Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:06 pm

Yeah it may not be required law for a lot, but the fear of God is a bit more convincing than human laws, don't you think so?
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Post by zizzle Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:10 pm

I dont understand why people have no problem with other forms of religious devotion but always have something negative to say about Hijab. When a woman willingly covers her hair, in its essence thats exactly the same as a christian woman wearing a cross, but you dont see people going bananas over that. Other religions require women to dress a certain way and nobody complains either. hypocrisy ? perhaps, but a large percent of these people are just brainwashed.
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Post by rwo power Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:22 pm

zizzle wrote:I dont understand why people have no problem with other forms of religious devotion but always have something negative to say about Hijab. When a woman willingly covers her hair, in its essence thats exactly the same as a christian woman wearing a cross, but you dont see people going bananas over that. Other religions require women to dress a certain way and nobody complains either. hypocrisy ? perhaps, but a large percent of these people are just brainwashed.
Exactly that is the point. But there are regions were women get punished for "not properly veiling themselves" and *that* is the real problem.

Or when non-religious women are forced to wear a head scarf by the "religious police", e.g. Western female archeologists who want to work in archeological expeditions in Afghanistan, Ethiopia and other states with extremely conservative people in charge.
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Post by zizzle Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:35 pm

rwo power wrote:
zizzle wrote:I dont understand why people have no problem with other forms of religious devotion but always have something negative to say about Hijab. When a woman willingly covers her hair, in its essence thats exactly the same as a christian woman wearing a cross, but you dont see people going bananas over that. Other religions require women to dress a certain way and nobody complains either. hypocrisy ? perhaps, but a large percent of these people are just brainwashed.
Exactly that is the point. But there are regions were women get punished for "not properly veiling themselves" and *that* is the real problem.

Or when non-religious women are forced to wear a head scarf by the "religious police", e.g. Western female archeologists who want to work in archeological expeditions in Afghanistan, Ethiopia and other states with extremely conservative people in charge.


There is no "religious" punishment for those who do wear viels, i have two sisters who live in the middle east and they never wore vails. No one ever tried to "punish" them. What you are talking about are state laws and those are no different from the laws that prohibit wearing viels in some parts of europe. Both are limiations on freedom and both are punishable by law but somehow these laws are not equal to some...
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Post by rwo power Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:56 pm

zizzle wrote:There is no "religious" punishment for those who do wear viels, i have two sisters who live in the middle east and they never wore vails. No one ever tried to "punish" them. What you are talking about are state laws and those are no different from the laws that prohibit wearing viels in some parts of europe. Both are limiations on freedom and both are punishable by law but somehow these laws are not equal to some...
Frankly, I don't mind whether they are state laws or religious laws - fact is, there *are* women punished for not wearing a headscarf, and stuff like that has to stop. And for the record, I don't like being told what to wear in general, no matter if I'd be forced to wear stuff or not to wear stuff. I prefer to choose my clothing for practicality.
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Post by zizzle Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:17 pm

well, frankly, I don't mind whether they are state laws or religious laws either - fact is, there *are* women punished for WEARING a headscarf, and stuff like that has to stop. And for the record, women shouldnt be told what to wear in general, no matter if I'd be forced to wear stuff or not to wear stuff. They should choose their clothing for practicality.
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Post by Cruijf Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:46 pm

rwo power wrote:
fact is, there *are* women punished for not wearing a headscarf, and stuff like that has to stop.

Fact is, there *are* people being killed as we speak because they chose to wear a headscarf. So I'm really not sure what the point you're trying to make is.

You started off very anti-hijab with this:

Are they really? From a modern female viewpoint they are 100% spot on.

I think more the reasons in the first article are just utterly brainwashed. I'm glad I live in a society/culture where I won't be whipped or beaten or otherwise punished for not complying to some impractical tradition on what to wear.

And by the way, why don't men veil themselves, too, if this is so nicely pious and modest?

But then now you're shifting more towards the, 'freedom of choice' thing. Do you have a problem with the hijab in general or just people being forced to wear it?
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Post by rwo power Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:07 pm

ACMRox wrote:But then now you're shifting more towards the, 'freedom of choice' thing. Do you have a problem with the hijab in general or just people being forced to wear it?
The latter. I had two Turkish girls (or rather young women) as fellow students in the university and they told me they were glad they were allowed to attend the university, but if they would dare to go there with their heads uncovered, their fathers and brothers would beat them up. If I hear stuff like this I'm really getting very angry! I mean, this was even in Germany, not some country under the shariah!
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Post by VivaStPauli Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:47 pm

So somewhere in the middle east there's like two dozen liberal people, and because of those we now have to pretend that not wearing a hijab doesn't get you socially ostracized in half of the muslim countries?

Meh.
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Post by Cruijf Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:34 am

rwo power wrote:
ACMRox wrote:But then now you're shifting more towards the, 'freedom of choice' thing. Do you have a problem with the hijab in general or just people being forced to wear it?
The latter. I had two Turkish girls (or rather young women) as fellow students in the university and they told me they were glad they were allowed to attend the university, but if they would dare to go there with their heads uncovered, their fathers and brothers would beat them up. If I hear stuff like this I'm really getting very angry! I mean, this was even in Germany, not some country under the shariah!

You make it sound like this issue has anything to do with the shariah, which as any educated person will tell you, is completely false.

The problem with abusing women (in this case and others) is a cultural one, not an Islamic or shariah-related one. If anything, the fact that this happened even without the so called 'oppressive' shariah rule should point towards this. Women being forced to wear the veil is a symptom of a deeper problem, a problem that existed before and exists without Islam, and that is the cultural view of male superiority over women.

As the article says, the Hijab does not stand for these wrong attitudes, but is instead a symbol of rejection and disassociation of them.
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Post by rwo power Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:58 am

ACMRox wrote:You make it sound like this issue has anything to do with the shariah, which as any educated person will tell you, is completely false.

The problem with abusing women (in this case and others) is a cultural one, not an Islamic or shariah-related one. If anything, the fact that this happened even without the so called 'oppressive' shariah rule should point towards this. Women being forced to wear the veil is a symptom of a deeper problem, a problem that existed before and exists without Islam, and that is the cultural view of male superiority over women.
Well, but strangely enough it often coincided with the introduction of the sharia that the oppression of women is made even worse. E.g. women were free to wear Western clothing before the Islamic revolution in the Iran, and just thereafter, when the Mullahs took over and introduced the shariah there, women who didn't adhere to the Islamic code were harshly punished.

Or look at the horrors the Taliban inflicted on women in Afghanistan - it may be that they actually enforced tribal laws, but they did it under the name of the Shariah. And this happened in many other countries, too - the problem as usual is that the SHariah is used as legitimation to oppress women. So how can one view this as anything positive for women?

Especially horrible is the fact that in case of a rape a woman needs 4 male persons as evidence to prove that she was in fact raped, but how is this even possible if she was alone against one (or even more attackers)? And in that case it is usually the woman who on top of the crime committed against her is punished for adultery!

Frankly, I really wish that one day the women in those countries manage to rally and rise up against the men and tell them where they can stick these laws!

Um, sorry, I digress, but frankly, such injustice as happens to women under the name of the Shariah really gets me riled up. And please don't start with "but if used properly the Shariah is just" - very obviously it is more often than not used not properly and is thus a weapon to oppress women and to treat them injustly.

ACMRox wrote:As the article says, the Hijab does not stand for these wrong attitudes, but is instead a symbol of rejection and disassociation of them.
This may be true for part of the women, but what is with the other part who don't want to wear a hijab and are forced to do so?
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Post by zizzle Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:44 am

Especially horrible is the fact that in case of a rape a woman needs 4 male persons as evidence to prove that she was in fact raped


RWO, whatever image you have about islam is wrong, and whatever source of information you're using is misguiding to say the least. The four witnesses are needed to prove that a woman committed adultery, not raped. Rape like any other crime needs only 1 witness, and that was before modern medicine ended the need for witnesses all together.

This is not the first time you post something that proves that you are misinformed. If you're truley interested in knowing what Islam says about these issues why dont you review islamic sources ? i mean you willingly listen to anti islamic propaganda so it's only fair that you listen to what the other side says. and dont worry, muslims will not sugar coat the truth for you becuase they truly believe that their religion is perfect.
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Post by che Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:39 am

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=30731

official statement by the muslim brotherhood rejecting sexual freedom for girls, teaching them how to use contraception, equal inheritance rights and, my personal favourite, cancelling the need for a husband's consent for travel and work because they oppose sharia law, they even cite what the "prophet" said as justification

but but but islam has nothing to do with infringing on women's rights Sad

then again i suppose the ruling democratically elected political party of egypt doesn't represent the true muslims™️
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Post by Cruijf Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:31 pm

che wrote:http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=30731

official statement by the muslim brotherhood rejecting sexual freedom for girls, teaching them how to use contraception, equal inheritance rights and, my personal favourite, cancelling the need for a husband's consent for travel and work because they oppose sharia law, they even cite what the "prophet" said as justification

but but but islam has nothing to do with infringing on women's rights Sad

then again i suppose the ruling democratically elected political party of egypt doesn't represent the true muslims™️

Really che? Looking through that article (a list of 10 major points that a declaration by the UN consists of) there's exactly TWO things I would agree with, which is why on the whole I'm definitely on their side when they denounce such things.

Why? Because contrary to what you're trying to imply, this document is not about equal rights and freedom for women, but instead about "protecting and giving respect to prostitutes".

I really cannot express by disgust enough. This isn't about equal rights, it's about protecting sick and horrible practices that the UN has deemed 'moral'.
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Post by che Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:46 pm

i'm sorry, you agree with TWO things? does this mean you oppose one of equal inheritance rights, revoking the need for husband's permission to travel and allowing muslim women to marry non-muslims?

that's just... wow... i mean really... i don't even know what to say
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Post by zizzle Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:10 pm

lets me clear something here Che, no one is saying that Islam is compatible with the western views of women rights, its not. What i'm saying here is that these extreme practices against women that some people are throwing around do not stem from islamic teachings, they are old cultural practices that any regular muslim will reject, but they somehow get associated with religion because these backwarded thinking people happen to live in "islamic regions".
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