2022 Qatar World Cup

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by mowgli on Sun May 18, 2014 9:18 pm

@sportsczy wrote:http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/findings/#rankings

I mean migrant workers that are considered modern slaves.

That's impossible for Qatar to have 1,4 mil migrant workers.  They have a total population of 2,1 million, 900k of which are Qatar nationals.  So if you mean expatriates...  there are 1,2+ million.  But very few of these people are migrant workers... mostly professionals like in the UAE.  The Guardian is full of crap if it's reporting that there are 1,4 million migrant workers in Qatar.  

Here's accurate info about Qatar:  https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/qa.html

You keep referring to the global slavery index but are overlooking the fact that more than 400 construction worker have died in the country since the bid was won (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/16/qatar-world-cup-400-deaths-nepalese).

Yes, Brazil may have terrible ranking on the global slavery index, as may the places where these workers original come from (i.g. India, Bangladesh etc.). And of course, the favelas are undoubtedly a tough place to live to say the least, plus the gun related violence South Africa is terrible.

But I fail to understand why should this should even matter when 400 people have lost their lives? It's like choosing a lesser evil. Call them slaves, workers, or employees it doesn't really matter when 400 lives have been lost. And the sad part is that it doesn't seem like gets going to stop there.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Le Samourai on Sun May 18, 2014 9:44 pm

They should take.some heat for the deaths since they should do a better job of monitoring humans rights violations within their own country.

No one wins with this situation, they have eight years and could easily create a sustainable working environment and complete construction.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by sportsczy on Sun May 18, 2014 10:00 pm

It's terrible no doubt. My point is that 10s of thousands of people died getting China ready for the Olympics. Same for South Africa. Yet, that doesn't get publicized.

If you're going to publicize the human rights issues surrounding global sporting events... then do it for everyone. Unless you're talking about developed countries, the working conditions of every construction site in 3rd world countries involve mortality rates. I know because i'm in real estate investment and our firm invested in projects in the 3rd world. I saw with my own eyes bodies become part of the foundation of a building that we invested in... saw the concrete get poured. Was i horrified? Of course. But here's the thing: It was a Chinese contractor who had won the contract of building our project. All I could do was report the incident to the local authorities (Algeria). You know what the person told me: We will handle the situation in coordination with the contractor and the Chinese consulate. Thing is, the contractor never filed a report.

I've also done a project in Qatar (and other parts of the region) and they adopt the same policy: The private contractors must file a report for the government to follow up. If the contractor fails to report anything, then the families of the people in question or the consulate of the country of origin of these people must follow up... they don't either.

It's terrible... but that's what happens in countries that are evolving. Heck, i can point out to the many, many deaths that happened to the US during our industrial revolution. That's what's happening in many of these countries... they are going through an industrial revolution. Progress in terms of laws/rights always lag the materialistic progress. It's been like this everywhere.

My personal experience with Qatar is that they are 95% doing a great job with how they are evolving. The laws are trying to evolve and most are... but like most places, you have powerful interest groups that make certain things difficult. The companies that use cheap labor like this are extremely powerful influences... and until these companies are tackled, the change will be slow. As of right now, the ruling family does not have the power to take on these interest groups. What needs to happen is that such practices become unprofitable and, thus, unnecessary. That's the way to handle it. The WC being in Qatar is making the PR cost of this practice more detrimental than its profitabliity. That's why i think that the WC coming to Qatar is a great thing because it will give the ruling the family the tools to implement change. It won't happen immediately... but you will see it slowly happen. I think the international spotlight that surrounds things like Sporting Events can be a catalyst for change.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sun May 18, 2014 10:12 pm

@Sports: so because these forced labor workers don't meet your index's (presumably narrow) definition of what 'modern slavery' is then it's okay that there are slaves working on the WC? or is your argument that it's okay that slaves are working on the WC because there are worst countries out there?

I still don't understand why nothing can be done about this 8 years from the actual competition. Most competitions are awarded 7 years in advance ffs.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by mowgli on Sun May 18, 2014 10:25 pm

What...how can you compare the industrial revolution in the USA that took place in the 18th century with the world's richest country that has a GDP (per capita) of $88,222, as well as all the technology, resources imaginable at its doorstep (http://www.forbes.com/pictures/egim45egde/1-qatar/).

Yes, I agree with you in that the World Cup may provide a catalyst for change, but how many lives will it take for that "change" to occur. Clearly, 400 wasn't enough as the death toll continues to rise. Rather that allowing Qatar to hold the World Cup in order for them to "get experience", it would make a lot more sense for them to firstly gain the experience and then hold the World Cup.

And still, I fail to see why you are bringing up the mortality rates in other countries. The World Cup is taking place in Qatar, NOT in the these "other countries". I am sure that these "other countries" (i.g. developing countries) wouldn't have won the bid had they not bribed FIFA anyways. Also, yeah things haven't been going great in Brazil. But it is important to keep in mind that their death toll is at seven. Which of course is seven too many, but does not compare to 400+.


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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by sportsczy on Sun May 18, 2014 11:32 pm

The US Industrial Revolution started in 1820 and continued all the way in the mid 1900s. Most of the mine deaths occurred from 1900-1950 (500 deaths reported... reality is known to be 10x that but the government squashed the numbers). American slavery was legally abolished in 1863... but segregation between white and black people wasn't dealt with until the civil rights movement of the 1960s. The Ku Klux Klan was thriving and very active until the late 1980s. Heck, the Grand Wizard of the KKK (Laughing) became a US Senator from 1990-1992. That's the reality of it.

Qatar and other regional countries are going through that now. You have to use cultural relativism. It doesn't matter where the rest of the world is... what matters is where the specific country is in its evolution and how its evolving. It doesn't happen overnight. You can't just sanp your fingers and everyone becomes immediately modernized. They're trying... but there are engrained societal norms that aren't that easily dismissed. It happens gradually unfortunately.

And the 400 deaths you mention are not directly related to the World Cup. They haven't even started construction of any of the world cup venues yet. It's overall in the construction industry in Qatar since 2012. They're basically saying that every building being built in Qatar now has to do with the 2022 WC, which is completely ludicrous.

What i do like is that they're focusing on the problem and making it an issue that Qatar will be forced to deal with and empowering the government to do so. That's the key.

My other point is that it's completely hypocritical to say that Qatar is this awful place when the problem being used... namely modern slavery... is far more prevalent in the two countries hosting WC 2014 and WC 2018. Namely, Brazil and Russia.


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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by jibers on Sun May 18, 2014 11:42 pm

@sportsczy wrote:The US Industrial Revolution started in 1820 and continued all the way in the mid 1900s.  Most of the mine deaths occurred from 1900-1950 (500 deaths reported...  reality is known to be 10x that but the government squashed the numbers).  American slavery was legally abolished in 1863...  but segregation between white and black people wasn't dealt with until the civil rights movement of the 1960s.   The Ku Klux Klan was thriving and very active until the late 1980s.  Heck, the Grand Wizard of the KKK (Laughing) became a US Senator from 1990-1992.  That's the reality of it.

Qatar and other regional countries are going through that now.  You have to use cultural relativism.  It doesn't matter where the rest of the world is...  what matters is where the specific country is in its evolution and how its evolving.  It doesn't happen overnight.  You can't just sanp your fingers and everyone becomes immediately modernized.  They're trying... but there are engrained societal norms that aren't that easily dismissed.  It happens gradually unfortunately.

And the 400 deaths you mention are not directly related to the World Cup.  They haven't even started construction of any of the world cup venues yet.  It's overall in the construction industry in Qatar since 2012.  They're basically saying that every building being built in Qatar now has to do with the 2022 WC, which is completely ludicrous.  

What i do like is that they're focusing on the problem and making it an issue that Qatar will be forced to deal with and empowering the government to do so.  That's the key.

My other point is that it's completely hypocritical to say that Qatar is this awful place when the problem being used... namely modern slavery... is far more prevalent in the two countries hosting WC 2014 and WC 2018.  Namely, Brazil and Russia.



Stop wasting your time sports. Half these clowns here just want to complain and feel morally superior. If you feel that strongly about this return all the clothes you wear and phones that you use that involve child labour and sweat shops...no...you won't...didn't think so...

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Swanhends on Mon May 19, 2014 12:35 am

@sportsczy wrote:That's impossible for Qatar to have 1,4 mil migrant workers.  They have a total population of 2,1 million, 900k of which are Qatar nationals.  So if you mean expatriates...  there are 1,2+ million.  But very few of these people are migrant workers... mostly professionals like in the UAE.  The Guardian is full of crap if it's reporting that there are 1,4 million migrant workers in Qatar.

It's not just the Guardian. Al Jazeera says only 10% of people over the age of 14 in the country are Qatari citizens, Bloomberg says there are only 250,000 citizens

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-14/the-2022-fifa-world-cup-could-be-deadly-for-qatars-migrant-workers

http://www.ituc-csi.org/clamour-of-criticism-about-qatar?lang=en

http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2014/05/qatar-announces-changes-labour-system-2014513115014474205.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2014/03/25/qatar-world-cup-preparations-may-kill-4000-workers-report-says/

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by elitedam on Mon May 19, 2014 1:17 am

There are huge problems in Brasil right now. And there is no way in hell we should have been awarded the WC. We are simply not ready and won't be for quite a while. However, this idea that slavery is worse here than in Qatar is laughable. Are you really telling me that there are only 4,000 people in Qatar that meet the definition of what a slave is? Because to me, if someone has their exit permit withheld than they are basically slaves.

Also, why is it so hard to differentiate between the established problems facing a country and the problems that arise as a result of holding the WC? FIFA can't do much about the former while they are directly responsible for the latter.
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by iftikhar on Mon May 19, 2014 7:46 am

The problem in Qatar is not Qatar persay... it's the Indian/Pakistan labor agents that trick their own countrymen into signing these contracts.

That's a very generous thumbs-up for Qatar administration.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why do migrant workers keep on coming to Qatar if they basically end up in slavery and might die? Are the conditions in their home country even worse or what's the deal?

Desperation would be one way of defining it. Bangladesh has a population of 160 million. Even with decent growths (averaging 6%) over last 20-25 years there's not enough job in service & manufacturing sector and farmland are actually shrinking.
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Jay29 on Sat May 31, 2014 11:17 pm

The Sunday Times going with an interesting exclusive. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall, but here it is nonetheless:
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/fifa/article1417325.ece

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Art Morte on Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:48 am

The BBC's article of the Sunday Times article (that's not behind paywalls):

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27652181


Well, I certainly could never have imagined anything like this....  Rolling Eyes 
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Kuru on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:26 am

@sportsczy wrote:The US Industrial Revolution started in 1820 and continued all the way in the mid 1900s.  Most of the mine deaths occurred from 1900-1950 (500 deaths reported...  reality is known to be 10x that but the government squashed the numbers).  American slavery was legally abolished in 1863...  but segregation between white and black people wasn't dealt with until the civil rights movement of the 1960s.   The Ku Klux Klan was thriving and very active until the late 1980s.  Heck, the Grand Wizard of the KKK (Laughing) became a US Senator from 1990-1992.  That's the reality of it.

Qatar and other regional countries are going through that now.  You have to use cultural relativism.  It doesn't matter where the rest of the world is...  what matters is where the specific country is in its evolution and how its evolving.  It doesn't happen overnight.  You can't just sanp your fingers and everyone becomes immediately modernized.  They're trying... but there are engrained societal norms that aren't that easily dismissed.  It happens gradually unfortunately.

And the 400 deaths you mention are not directly related to the World Cup.  They haven't even started construction of any of the world cup venues yet.  It's overall in the construction industry in Qatar since 2012.  They're basically saying that every building being built in Qatar now has to do with the 2022 WC, which is completely ludicrous.  

What i do like is that they're focusing on the problem and making it an issue that Qatar will be forced to deal with and empowering the government to do so.  That's the key.

My other point is that it's completely hypocritical to say that Qatar is this awful place when the problem being used... namely modern slavery... is far more prevalent in the two countries hosting WC 2014 and WC 2018.  Namely, Brazil and Russia.


Just to add my two cents on the subject, on the matter of Qatar having one of the highest GDP in the world, you to take into consideration that money =/= cultural evolution. Most of the money in Qatar right now, heck, most of the region there is from the oil boom, around the 70-80', you got to understand that before that most of the place was just desert, and very tribal families.

As Sports said, it takes time evolve culturally, and Qatar had only 30-40 years to develop, compared to the hundreds of years 1st world countries like the U.S. and some European countries had (not to mention that alot of the important issues were only dealt with 40-50 years ago). And it doesn't help that a lot of o of the powerful interest group don't want this change to happen as it'll cut down on their profits. Having the World Cup can be the best thing that happens to Qatar, and hopefully the whole region.
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by che on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:09 am

GoonerJay29 wrote:



i'm trying to contain my amazement...

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by M99 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:18 pm

Qatar World Cup 2022: Fifa vice-president 'would support' re-vote

Fifa vice-president Jim Boyce says he would support a re-vote to find a new host for the Qatar World Cup in 2022 if corruption allegations can be proven.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27654587


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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Pedram on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:41 pm

@M99 wrote:Qatar World Cup 2022: Fifa vice-president 'would support' re-vote

Fifa vice-president Jim Boyce says he would support a re-vote to find a new host for the Qatar World Cup in 2022 if corruption allegations can be proven.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27654587



Handing the world cup to Qatar has to be the greatest fck up in FIFA's history but you have to give them credit for finally coming to their sense.
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by mr-r34 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:20 am

Hopefully Fifa do something ASAP, either come out and back the corruption or do the right thing and strip them of the World Cup.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by M99 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:41 pm

Australia to launch bid for 2022 if Qatar is disqualified.

Now I get it. This is dostoevsky and Forza planting misinformation to get the World Cup ffs.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Forza on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:14 pm

@M99 wrote:Australia to launch bid for 2022 if Qatar is disqualified.

Now I get it. This is dostoevsky and Forza planting misinformation to get the World Cup ffs.

Soon...

FYI, we have 100K seat stadiums in Australia already built and in top condition, give us 1 months notice to put up signs and stuff and we're ready.
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by mr-r34 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:23 pm

@Forza wrote:
@M99 wrote:Australia to launch bid for 2022 if Qatar is disqualified.

Now I get it. This is dostoevsky and Forza planting misinformation to get the World Cup ffs.

Soon...

FYI, we have 100K seat stadiums in Australia already built and in top condition, give us 1 months notice to put up signs and stuff and we're ready.


 Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up 

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by FalcaoPunch on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:32 pm

Will USA relaunch a bid as well?
I forget if we were going for the 2018 and lost out to Russia or 2022 and lost out to Qatar
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Lord Spencer on Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:15 pm

@FalcaoPunch wrote:Will USA relaunch a bid as well?
I forget if we were going for the 2018 and lost out to Russia or 2022 and lost out to Qatar


You lost to Qatar Laughing
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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by RedOranje on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:17 pm

@FalcaoPunch wrote:Will USA relaunch a bid as well?
I forget if we were going for the 2018 and lost out to Russia or 2022 and lost out to Qatar
No, the US Federation has stated that they will only launch a bid to host the World Cup again if FIFA take steps to make the bidding process more transparent and legitimate. I suppose IF FIFA do find evidence of corruption; IF FIFA do pull the 2022 WC from Qatar; and IF they then also take steps to legitimize the bidding process then the US could resubmit their bid. Otherwise I think that the US Federation will remain uninvolved this time around.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by rwo power on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:23 pm

In the sources I reviewed to find the costs of the world cups, there was a paper of the University of Maryland that strongly advised against the US bidding because of the incalculable costs involved.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by VendettaRed07 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:46 pm

Why would the WC cost the US so much to host? Like Australlia our stadiums are ready. I just find it hard to believe that the US wouldn't submit a bit if a revote is infact taken.

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Re: 2022 Qatar World Cup

Post by Don't call me James on Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:51 pm

I hope we do submit a bid. Imagine having it right in my back yard Proud

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