Barça vs. Bayern

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by Brady2Moss on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:06 am

@rnuop wrote:It was like watching the Patriots beating the Colts in the playoffs a couple years back. Anytime one of the skill players of Barca would get the ball Bayern Munich would run into them with their bodies neutralizing the finesse play of Barcelona. Sure there looked to be some handballs, but come on that pick Muller put on Jordi Alba was ridiculous. Gomez's goal was obviously offsides. And the 4th goal was just cause Alba was pissed he kept getting man handled and was not getting any calls. You foul Messi twice that should be a yellow card. You can't just keep stopping the flow of game and the counterattack by running your body into Barca's smaller players. God that was ugly.


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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by jibers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:32 am

Great points Kizz. I said this since the start of the season. My take on this is that it is time for a refresh button. This obssession with possession has been taken to a new level. People keep going on about this 'tiki taka' BS. Tiki taka does not exist and I know Free_cat agrees.

Now immediately Guardiola left I knew that the principles would slowly fade. Tito is not Pep and never will be. You can see the players, inevitably don't have the same hunger they did 2-3 seasons ago. That is understandable. Now for a club to have sustained success you have to either change the management, or replace the players ala the Bella Guttmann rule. Milan had 3 great seasons under Sacchi but they changed managers and style with the same core players and retained success. Manchester United have had consistent success because we constantly change our players and tweak our tactics with respect to the players we have, while retaining Uniteds beliefs, if I could call it that.

As Kizz said, a lot of Guardiola's principles are slowly going. The pressing is non existent. The reason it seemed like Barcelona always had the ball under Guardiola is because of how quickly they recovered the ball back. When Pep came he coached the way the players positioned themselves, especially the defenders. Pique has never been a good conventional defender, I don't think Barcelona has ever had a stand out cenrtral defender I can think of. Koeman was never a good defender. The team was set up to reciver the ball and the defenders were set up to enable ball retention. Even Pep admitted when he took over that Barcelona has never been good at defending (conventionally that is ie sitting back and using defensive positioning ala Inter and chelsea). So the reason that the defence has looked horrid is because they are being forced to defend conventionally depsite not being in a position to do so.

So when I see people goin, o lets get Hummels, lets get Kompany, it would make no difference. Except the tactics are brought up to scratch or the coaching of their positioning is changed even Thiago Silva will suffer in that defence.

Now what is Barcelona's philosphy? Anyone that wants to say possession can quite frankly go to hell. Possession is a statistic. As I said either the personnel change or the management (tactics) changes. The management isn't exactly the same, but the personnel has been together now for almost 5-6 years. The team needs a new coach with fresh ideas and a differnt tactical philosophy. People saying no they don't need to wake up. Barcelona have played differently under every manager. It is clear that they need new things, the false 9 has run its course, I don't care what anyone says. Look at how Messi dependent the team is. It is unreal. Look at Bayer. They were missing Kroos and Mandzukich and Badstuber yet they had players that can come and fit in straight away.

That is what a team should be like. Messi is a great player but now the team is geared towards him and when it works it is magic, but when it doesnt it, the whole team falls apart as a result. Even the positioning of the midfielders is different sligtly. All I'm saying is that anyone expecting the team to play the same way they did under Pep now that he is gone is deluded. Maybe when Tito is fit for a whole season we will see. As far as I'm concerned, this team is losing its identity every month and someone needs to come in an imprint their own style on it.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by spanky on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:52 am

lots of great posts on the 6th and 7th pages that i agree with but i cant be bothered to get into a debate and really just want to say that the standard of refereeing this season has been horrible, not just for our team tonight but even for bayern they could have had at least 1 penalty (if not more) from a handball tonight. The thing is, its not just tonight and what seems to standout the most this season is the number of offside goals not being disallowed in the CL knockout stages where one would expect the highest level of refereeing. to summarize this post i dont think there has been a single game in the knockouts without a major referee mistake.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by alexjanosik on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:02 am

I think the scoreline flatters Bayern a bit.They pummelled us on corners but otherwise werent that great.I think the main difference between the sides was that they just wanted it a hell of a lot more whereas we having won the whole lot just didnt seem to want it as much.And nothing typified it more that their fourth goal.With Dani Alves off injured Pedro should have been covering at RB.Yet there was no one there and Alaba waltzed unopposed to put in a cross.Wont complain about the incorrect calls as thats part of the game,.We just didnt have the desire,they did.

On the players,Pique :facepalm: I dont remember which games it were but I remember saying after a couple of games early on in the season that Pique was going to cost us dearly on setpieces and he did.
We push up as soon as the first ball is played but every single time Pique is late to push up and it cost us dearly yesterday.First goal,ball comes in,Dante heads it across,everyone pushes up,Pique is too late to do so and plays Muller onside.On their second goal,this time Muller plays it back,again Pique is too slow and Gomez scores.Granted Gomez was offside but had Pique pushed up faster the refs job would have been easier.
He has been underwhelming for 2 seasons now.Even otherwise he just doesnt inspire confidence.Individually at his best he is a great defender but he isnt a leader and organizer at the back.We might need to get 2 world class CB's in the summer.

Bartra had a stinker but going into a game of this magnitude,it was always going to be 50-50.He was either going to shine or get shown up.Tough to blame the kid.

I wont speak much about anyone else but Messi.Yesterday once more proved why he is becoming a liability for us in big games.Liability is a loaded word but it is plain for everyone to see that him being there has some negative effects.The modern game just doesnt afford a luxury player.Every player has to defend.We cant have one player who does nothing to help out defensively.Yesterday every Bayern player worked his socks off,including Robben and Ribery while Messi was busy walking.Its ironic in the sense that we were the team who set the benchmark in every player having to defend.Every team copied us and improved while we regressed. Now the other elite teams are far ahead of us

Messi is also affecting us negatively in an offensive sense.
Simple question:How many times did Messi run away from the ball and make off the ball runs?How many times did Messi offer any positive movement when we had the ball?
The answer is a bit fat zero times.This has become an all too common sight and made our offense extremely predictable.Its the reason elite teams have figured us out offensively and why we struggle against them.We created nothing yesterday and its not the first time.Same against Madrid recently and against Milan first leg.We have created our offense around Messi and he offers nothing off the ball.Most elite teams have the blueprint against it.
Track runs of our wide players when Messi has the ball.So his throughballs are taken out.Then pack the center.So he cant dribble his way to goal.The result is that we become extremely predcitable and create nothing.And when Messi has a stinker with the ball,it becomes painful to watch.

Before someone suggests that Messi didnt offer anything off the ball because he was injured,I suggest the to go over the evidence of the last few years.There have been a lot of games(big ones) where this has been the case.He doesnt help out defensively and he does nothing off the ball when we are in possession thereby making us predictable and easy to defend against.He is a GOAT so it makes sense to build the offense around him but the team(mostly the coach) and him should realize that he has to offer more when we are in possession and he doesnt have the ball. Otherwise we will continue to look predictable and struggle to create chances against the big teams.

Tito had a shocker.He should have yanked Messi at HT and brought changes sooner.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by Brady2Moss on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:47 am

lol @ people blaming this loss on Messi. Y'all just a bunch of ungrateful people. Without Messi, Barca would've out in the Last 16 and languishing in 4th place or worse in La liga. It's high time you face it, without Messi, Barcelona is just an average team. Messi has been carrying Barca for too long now, but as brilliant as he is, sometimes the burden just gets too heavy to carry on his shoulders.

If you really wanna lay the blame on someone, blame Xavi and Iniesta for being predictable. Blame Pedro, Sanchez and Villa for being rubbish in front of goal. Blame Pique, Alba and Alves for their clumsiness. Blame Tito for being too cowardly.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by BarcaKizz on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:12 am

Great post the Ostracised One. I don't think we need to change our tactics completely or get a new manager. You have to remember how unfortunate this season was for our manager... That would be inhumane to sack him.

He inherited a team, lets see what he can do with a whole year and hopefully new personnel. Both our defence and attack needs an overhaul and the Xavi-dependence needs to stop. Its time to hand the baton to Thiago. Xavi plays too often.
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:28 am

alex, as always your post was great to read. A few points I will make.

1. These last few months have shown that Pique just isn't the same without Puyol. It's ironic that I once thought Thiago Silva would fade without Nesta. He has gone from strength to strength while Pique has regressed each day.

2. Messi's off the ball movement wasn't bad in the first half of the season. What happened later I don't completely understand. Firstly it seemed without Tito things had gone awry but even after he came back nothing was set right.

3. I won't blame Messi for last night at all. He seemed like someone who could barely walk and was still made to play for 90 minutes.

4. Tito should have brought off Messi earlier but then again he didn't have much to work with. Those we thought earlier would do the job didn't inspire confidence. Playing the last La Liga match so poorly didn't help. Fabregas we thought worked as a false number 9 but in spite of the goal he scored he actually had a very poor game. Villa had a complete shocker and now it really does not seem as if he can do anything for us.

5. Barca are not an average team without Messi. The midfield has always been the best and if it has declined now then it's due to Xavi aging rather than much to do with Messi. If you look at the entire era of this brilliant team then Xavi has arguably been just as key as Messi to everything we have achieved if not more. Yes Messi carries the forward line today but this wouldn't have happened if our think tank had bought the right forwards and given them ample scope. The decline of the defense has nothing to do with Messi but it does have something to do with Xavi. Since we lose the ball more often now the defense has much more to do. Putting all the success and failure squarely on Messi is too simplistic a thought in my view at least. The factors that made this team so special and the reasons that have led to its decline are actually far more intricate.

6. Were Xavi and Iniesta predictable last night? Perhaps they were but they were given so little to work with. The forward line was just not working. No space was being created and the forwards were hardly ever in a position to receive a great pass. The little bit of dribbling that Iniesta tried just didn't come off. Martinez was his shadow in the first half and once he got booked Schweinsteiger took over. At times I was screaming to Iniesta to go forward more since he seemed to be able to make more happen in the final third than the forwards could but then again I wondered that he was staying behind in the second half because even defenders were venturing forward too much and it would have been far too risky if no one had stayed back. A 4-0 could have become an 8-0. There was that one moment with Alexis when together they almost pulled off the one opening that could have possibly changed things but it was not to be.

7. As for Alves, for me he was our best player. Sure he made a few mistakes but he showed more heart and did more things correctly than arguably anyone else in a Barca shirt last night.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by kiranr on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:53 am


We lost this match badly because of 3-4 half-fit players, lack of hunger and desire to really go after 50-50 balls and to press and a really ineffective forward line.

The main concern i have is that Barcelona's performance reflects the lack of a really strong training regimen with respect to fitness and tactics. They were not fit and clear minded like the Bayern players. Most players took too long on the ball and they were unable to move the ball around quickly. This shows that the coaching staff is not putting in the required amount of work to get the players ready. The lack of collective pressing is down to the coaching staff as well.

I will be looking for hints of change in the training approach in the subsequent matches beginning next season. If things continue as it is, i believe a change in coaching staff will become necessary.
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 am

It's very rare that we don't see any post from dani after a major match. Where is he this time? Is he too disappointed/disgusted to post and/or visit the forum today?

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by billy_gr on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:01 am

For me the main problems are predictability and lack of workrate.
Every team has a blueprint to shut as off and effectively so and you can’t always rely to moments of individual magic to save the day.
As for the workrate, it was plain painful to see Robben and Ribbery working their shocks off while the likes of Messi were walking in the field. If this is due to strain for consecutive years playing at top level I can understand it, but if that’s the case then change the approach. As someone said it’s no use to play possession if you are not able to press as you used to.
Finally, defending. No comments on this one. Olympiakos’ defense pisses on Barca’s defense right now. How hard is to find a decent back line nowadays?
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by jibers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:12 am

@billy_gr wrote:For me the main problems are predictability and lack of workrate.
Every team has a blueprint to shut as off and effectively so and you can’t always rely to moments of individual magic to save the day.
As for the workrate, it was plain painful to see Robben and Ribbery working their shocks off while the likes of Messi were walking in the field. If this is due to strain for consecutive years playing at top level I can understand it, but if that’s the case then change the approach. As someone said it’s no use to play possession if you are not able to press as you used to.
Finally, defending. No comments on this one. Olympiakos’ defense pisses on Barca’s defense right now. How hard is to find a decent back line nowadays?

On the defending check my post. It's not as simple as yreplacing your backline. Pique is far better than when he first joined.

@kizz thanks. I feel a change will happen. Every team has their cycle. Yours was incredible,ffs it's 5 years and we are still talking about Barcelona, that is Real Madrid 50s esque. Changes need to be made on the personnel then. As I said, to keep the same level, either management or core players have to change.

I've said I feel a new coach would benefit Barcelona.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by kabarca on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:52 pm

Honestly we sucked BIG TIME and Bayern deserved to win and were much better BUTT that still doesn't excuse the pathetic ref performance to give Bayern 3 wrong goals,1st one is debatable but 2nd and 3rd are clear as hell.
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by jibers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:00 pm

@kabarca wrote:Honestly we sucked BIG TIME and Bayern deserved to win and were much better BUTT that still doesn't excuse the pathetic ref performance to give Bayern 3 wrong goals,1st one is debatable but 2nd and 3rd are clear as hell.

They had 2 penalty shouts and one was definite. Evened out.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by kabarca on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:03 pm

The Ostracised One wrote:
@kabarca wrote:Honestly we sucked BIG TIME and Bayern deserved to win and were much better BUTT that still doesn't excuse the pathetic ref performance to give Bayern 3 wrong goals,1st one is debatable but 2nd and 3rd are clear as hell.

They had 2 penalty shouts and one was definite. Evened out.

Not really,1 was ball to hand and clearlly unintntional as his hands were by his body and one was supposed to be foul on dante for leaning on Alexis.

ANyway i wasnt blaming the ref for the loss just pointing some mistake out that people would of have been crying about right now if they were in barca's favour and not against them.
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:08 pm

alexjanoski wrote:Before someone suggests that Messi didnt offer anything off the ball because he was injured,I suggest the to go over the evidence of the last few years.There have been a lot of games(big ones) where this has been the case.He doesnt help out defensively and he does nothing off the ball when we are in possession thereby making us predictable and easy to defend against.He is a GOAT so it makes sense to build the offense around him but the team(mostly the coach) and him should realize that he has to offer more when we are in possession and he doesnt have the ball. Otherwise we will continue to look predictable and struggle to create chances against the big teams.

Alex I in large agree with your post but how can you not say that his injury affected his game? I myself wanted him off at HT too, but it seemed clear to me that even if Messi is lazy yesterday it was something else entirely. He didn't even jog, sometimes a player had possession 5 meters away from him and he didn't press. Even at his laziest, under normal conditions he at least runs. Imo he was still injured and should not have played, but even without the benefit of hindsight it was clear he should've come off at HT.

@Jibers: if Tito had been in charge the entire season there might be a case for sacking him, but I agree with Kizz that it would be a very inhumane thing to do all things considered. I would give him one more season and try to re-new the dressing room with 4 new ambitious faces.

@CSpurs: yeah our transfer record kind of sucks but we were successful in the '08 summer, we can definitely do it again. Luckily none of our proposed transfer targets so far are catalan or arsenal players.

@Free: your comments about Pique made me think of a recent interview Dani Alves gave to El Pais (I believe 2 days ago). He was asked whether he sees Pique as a leader and organizer of the defense and he essentially said "no I don't see him as a leader (referente)".

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by alexjanosik on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:13 pm

I agree that yesterday Messi was clearly affected by the injury.My point was that the injury shouldnt be used to make the case that everything is fine and dandy and that the normal course is him working his socks off and offering movement when we are in possession.Cause he clearly has not been doing that for 2 years now.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by alexjanosik on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:20 pm

Apparently that scrub Martinez is now better than Busquets and Schweinsteiger is also better than Xavi.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by jibers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:38 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:Apparently that scrub Martinez is now better than Busquets and Schweinsteiger is also better than Xavi.

Martinez is clearly not a scrub :facepalm:

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:03 pm

Seriously don't understand the complaints about the ref. The ref made bad calls for both, but in my opinion Bayern got it worse than us.

Oh and by the way, I mentioned this in the chat, but who the hell does Alba think he is pulling that ungraceful act when we desperately need an away goal and one more yellow bans him from the next match? I hope Abidal permanently benches him for the rest of the season. It will also allow us to see whether Abidal should be renewed or not.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by BarcaKizz on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:06 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:Apparently that scrub Martinez is now better than Busquets and Schweinsteiger is also better than Xavi.

That scrub Martinez just absolutely dominated our beloved Andres Iniesta, as did their whole midfield. Give credit where its due.

Martinez isn't Busquets, that is true, but he is Martinez, a fantastic player.

Players shine in different systems.

@Ostracised One: No, calling for a new manager is too far. Even saying this 'era' BS is too far. These 'eras' are just things we make up in retrospect to neatly package history. Its not like Barca has been at the top and all of a sudden we're down. There have been bumps along the ride. Tweaking the system is all thats needed and we can peak again.

Barca have manufactured a philosophy which works and it will continue to work. Cruyff and Rexach didn't put together a system which took 15 years to build so that it would be abandoned and some coach like Mourinho brought in. Like I said, Barca needs to evolve and solve their problems, but most of the problems like I said are simply things which are part of our blueprint which aren't being performed (e.g.. pressing, faster service etc).

No Plan B, just go back to Plan A and improve it. Stop half-assing Plan A. If hunger is an issue. Fix it.
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:06 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:Apparently that scrub Martinez is now better than Busquets and Schweinsteiger is also better than Xavi.

No of course not but they are in great form.

Schweinsteiger has for years been considered a very good player who ended up on the losing side when facing the real masters. This season has been different. Claiming the scalp of Pirlo and then topping it with the scalp of Xavi is no mean feat even if both the maestros are close to the end of their careers.

As for Martinez, the fellow's man marking abilities are really something. I didn't know he could be that good. His job on Iniesta especially in the first half of the game for me was one of the key aspects of the game. Once he got booked they smartly switched responsibilities and it was Schweini and Robben who then shadowed Iniesta for most of the second half. Tactically they put it all together very well. BTW Mascherano used to be a quality man marker but that's not our style and hence we have hardly ever made any use of that plus point of his.
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by BarcaKizz on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:15 pm

My reflections on this match:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1615806-fc-barcelona-is-it-time-to-break-up-the-band
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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by alexjanosik on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:02 pm

@BarcaKizz wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:Apparently that scrub Martinez is now better than Busquets and Schweinsteiger is also better than Xavi.

That scrub Martinez just absolutely dominated our beloved Andres Iniesta, as did their whole midfield. Give credit where its due.

Martinez isn't Busquets, that is true, but he is Martinez, a fantastic player.

Players shine in different systems.

@Ostracised One: No, calling for a new manager is too far. Even saying this 'era' BS is too far. These 'eras' are just things we make up in retrospect to neatly package history. Its not like Barca has been at the top and all of a sudden we're down. There have been bumps along the ride. Tweaking the system is all thats needed and we can peak again.

Barca have manufactured a philosophy which works and it will continue to work. Cruyff and Rexach didn't put together a system which took 15 years to build so that it would be abandoned and some coach like Mourinho brought in. Like I said, Barca needs to evolve and solve their problems, but most of the problems like I said are simply things which are part of our blueprint which aren't being performed (e.g.. pressing, faster service etc).

No Plan B, just go back to Plan A and improve it. Stop half-assing Plan A. If hunger is an issue. Fix it.

Dont subscribe to that view.Their midfield did no such thing.Them playing with us on corners had nothing to do with their midfield.Their midfield defended decently and shackled a clearly injured Messi well,but if thats called dominating then they must have changed the meaning of the word in the dictionary.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by vicentec on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:06 pm

It was a sad sight, but, in the long run, it is good that we lost like this. Had we lost 1-0 or 2-0 and there were suspect ref calls, then people would have an easy route to deny our problems. Now, our problems are laid out for all to see, and management must do something. The Phoenix will rise again. Some thoughts in no particular order:

1. Pique will NEVER be able to take on a leadership role (like Puyol), so time to bench him or sell him.

2. Maybe Puyol should be invited to retire and serve as an assistant coach? All accounts is that he is a bright guy with a strategic mind. Maybe it is time we started grooming him for a management role.

3. Bartra needs playing time against the Zaragoza and Celtas of the world before being thrust into CL Semis. He gave away the ball cheaply on more than on occasion. He's no Varane, but he's got potential.

4. Backline needs to be told not to kick the ball back to Valdes (glad he's going). Whenever Valdes got a pass-back, he just launched it into midfield, and more times than not, Munich took possession at that point. Valdes is not a first-class shot stopper, but his ball distribution used to be his strength... now he just punts the ball into midfield.

5. Time to sell Cesc and get some of our money back. Cesc was on the bench yesterday, and even after it was clear that magic wasn't going to come from Messi, Vilanova didn't have balls to pull Messi and put in Cesc. I am not a big fan of Cesc, but pulling Messi at about the 55 minute mark and putting in Cesc might have changed the game... what was the downside? Pissing off Messi?

6. Messi needs to be rested more. He also needs to be told not to play when he clearly isn't fit to play. Vilanova is clearly not the manager who has the guts and personal trust with Messi to tell him what's good for Messi and the team.

7. Dani Alves is nearing the end of his usefulness to us. We need another fast winger with a more accurate shot.

8. Loan Pedro to AS Roma or wherever it is that Bojan is now. If Pedro gets his mojo back, we can take him back, otherwise, let him go.

9. Sadly, David Villa is never going to his pre-ankle break form, time to replace him with a goal scorer.

10. Alexis Sanchez - I like his spirit, but he just isn't scoring as he should. Sell him.

11. I liked Busquets game. Xavi and Iniesta performed pretty well for their high standards. But, with a deficient backline, and no penetration from the strikers, there isn't much the midfield could do to change the momentum of the game.

Oh well, it sucks, but if we learn and adapt, then we will be all the better next season.

Also, we will walk away with la Liga title, so we have something this season.

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by Donuts on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:51 pm

Was a terrible match to watch as a Barcelona fan, we looked uncomfortable and awkward the whole game, Messi was clearly still not fit, Sanchez was invisible, Pedro was great at tracking back but that's it, Pique made three times more errors then right, Alba couldn't keep his man to save his life, Valdes cannot stop a shot no matter how close it is to him.

The only positive I can see from this is at least we are playing Bartra now, and he definitely has potential to fit the squad maybe replace Pique when we buy a new CB

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Re: Barça vs. Bayern

Post by Donuts on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:44 pm

I didn't think I was going to get over the loss for a good week or so but turns out watching Madrid get dominated helped a lot.

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