Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by LeSwagg James on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:45 am

@chad4401 wrote:i swear if it xabi-khed next season i aint expecting nothing note worthy

This.... Such a shit double-pivot combo

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Real Kandahar on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:42 am

@chad4401 wrote:
@Real Kandahar wrote:
@chad4401 wrote:


smh stop talking nonsense, what did you expect higs and benz to do when bvb pressing the life out of xabi,modric and khedira, why is so easy to blame the strikers for everything we lucky to even get a goal

why the hell should ronaldo score all the time? why are we so dependant on him for every goal!!!

when was the last time benzema or higuain scored a 'difficult' or 'cruicially important' goal against a tough opponent? waste of shirt of them...

id rather see callejon as striker

hmmm why cr always score i dont know maybe just hear me out now, he plays every match,license to shoot,all our players including strikers are ordered to look for cr first and he has free role

the fact is, it has been a long while since our strikers have scored a 'difficult' and or 'cruicial' goal against a major opponent. and you can't argue against that.


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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by halamadrid2 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:13 am

:brickwall:

we could have renovated the changing room with the money we bought Modric for. what a scrub
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Madrid_Machine on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:16 am

Mesut Özil choked once again. He is so overhyped, and he rarely plays a very good game. Simply the worst.
Alonso also had one of his worst performances in the white shirt. Alonso+Khedira+Modric got dominated by BVB.
Ramos does not belong on that right back position. Awfull performance by him.
Mourinho also did wrong with starting Higuain infront of Benzema. He can do much more than just scoring. But now, i actually prefer starting with Higuain.

Our best player in that match is by far C. Ronaldo. He was basically the only one who did anything in attacking.
But at least we scored an away goal unlike Barca.... hehe

We can win 3-0 at home. It will just be very hard. Still i would give Real Madrid around 20-25 % chance of qualifying.


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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by alexander mahone on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:09 pm

Ok, let's hang our favorite scapegoat as surely everyone has one or a few.
Seriously though, it was so bad all around that it's hard to tell who were dragging the team into such poor display and who were just pretty much being dragged, at times looks like they're dragging each other into bad situation. Everything just didn't add up like we had a really bad mixed of players put together on the pitch. They'd better put a good display at home.
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Le Samourai on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:06 pm

Conceding 4 ,while it may be the defining feature of this game, was not ultimately under our control. This was hardly a dominant attacking performance, nor was it a dominant counter-attacking performance, it was mistakes a luck.

You can't look past luck for the 2nd and 3rd goals, random misconstrued passes/shots and him putting them away the way he did - he felt it today like he never has before in his entire career - of which this will likely be the pinnacle. Of course these goals were also preventable, but Pepe has not been playing - and more noticeably isn't 100 percent physically. Xabi just made a mistake. You can say they made their own luck - as it's always disappointing to simply be out-hustled, but they had the crowd behind them and that's just what happened.

In attack the problems were almost too glaring not to notice. These problems were no doubt exacerbated by ridiculous pressing, but they were there. Even for the short periods we settled on the ball and Dortmund withdrew a little the defense and midfield were unable to effectively move the ball down the pitch. I think they lacked options.

They could go back or forward directly - Higuain spends most of his time cutoff from the attack looking for a run, Pepe is not someone who Xabi or the rest of the midfield trust to be an auxiliary distributor. Therefore - basically every pass got angled into space on the wings - but here we didn't have the fullbacks to force Dortmud to come loosen their marking on Ronaldo and Ozil.

Ozil got on the ball less than I would have liked, Having Modric limits the extent to which he can see the ball. With Modric you need to understand how much his space is constricted. There's a huge gap between Xabi and our attack - one which Khedira makes an effort to not occupy. Ozil can come for the ball wherever he needs it. With Modric on he can't. Since his game largely depends on touches and linking - he wasn't at his best.

Ronaldo did what he could. He really doesn't have much answers when you cutoff his direct running lanes - which they did. Him crossing repeatedly to one is a sign of total offensive breakdown. When Di Maria does it he's aiming for Ronaldo, when Ronaldo does it he's aiming for a ghost.

I think as a matter of general flow there was none today. Without pressing one would have developed, but out team is supposed to be good enough to adapt. I think insert Ramos and Benzema into central positions and you have enough central avenues for attack to loosen how tightly those on the wings were bracketed.

Higain's run's might have been threatening or created space if Dortmund players chased him, but because the ball never got there and because all of our attacks were slow - they never did. Pepe doesn't do simple things, knock with Xabi , move down the left to let Coentrao make a run, play the ball long to Ozil or Ronaldo, it's just not a role he's accustomed to.

Khedira, suprisingly, for the first big game this season didn't do his job. He didn't have his usual motor, which is disappointing. I never expect much from him, but I expect simple things....especially after he's been so successful doing those things recently.

If we came here to out-play them - that's fine we should play the players that can. If we came to hustle and counter, that's fine - once again play the players that can. But having a mixture has always been a problem, simply because the players themselves are on different wavelengths. Mourinhio probably wanted both considering the line-up, unfortunately he got neither.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Valkyrja on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:10 pm

We have to play like we did against Barca in the supercup. Despite the tactical fail, we didn't have the passion to win this kind of game.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by sportsczy on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:21 pm

Nobody played well. But let's call it like it is. Alonso was absolutely horrific. He was a turnover machine in the midfielder, couldn't defend and made that bad mistake. Ramos and Pepe don't know the first rule of defense... namely you line up with the defender that is playing the last attacker; Lewandowski here. You never play behind that defender because that takes away that defender's ability to put the player offsides. The only time you do it is if you can cover him OR you are getting dribbled. On almost every play, Pepe and/or Ramos covered Lewandowski while Varane was playing him offsides. Just complete idiots... i've said it many times. Pepe and Ramos don't have enough brain cells to be great defenders. They are good solely because of their athleticism; but often get exposed against top forwards because they lack a brain. Varane wasn't great either... but he was decent at least. He just can't play his game if his defensive partners are continuously sabotaging his positional defending. It's not possible.

So basically, Alonso gets first prize for shatiness with Pepe and Ramos getting on the podium. Honorable mention for Ozil, Modric and Khedira. They were pretty bad too. Varane was not as poor... only guys that did their jobs were Coentrao and CR7 to me. Higuain gets an incomplete because we all know he's useless unless he gets service. Not his thing. No idea why Mou thinks he can contribute when Madrid are at a midfield disadvantage. Only time Higuain should be on is if we can at least hold our own in the midfield.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:29 pm

its not a coincidence when so many players play badly at the same time. said it before, team design is very poorly thought, and we have developed backwards tactically as a unit. players could perform a lot better under a manager that knows how to use them, mourinho isnt that

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Le Samourai on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:43 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Nobody played well. But let's call it like it is. Alonso was absolutely horrific. He was a turnover machine in the midfielder, couldn't defend and made that bad mistake. Ramos and Pepe don't know the first rule of defense... namely you line up with the defender that is playing the last attacker; Lewandowski here. You never play behind that defender because that takes away that defender's ability to put the player offsides. The only time you do it is if you can cover him OR you are getting dribbled. On almost every play, Pepe and/or Ramos covered Lewandowski while Varane was playing him offsides. Just complete idiots... i've said it many times. Pepe and Ramos don't have enough brain cells to be great defenders. They are good solely because of their athleticism; but often get exposed against top forwards because they lack a brain. Varane wasn't great either... but he was decent at least. He just can't play his game if his defensive partners are continuously sabotaging his positional defending. It's not possible.

So basically, Alonso gets first prize for shatiness with Pepe and Ramos getting on the podium. Honorable mention for Ozil, Modric and Khedira. They were pretty bad too. Varane was not as poor... only guys that did their jobs were Coentrao and CR7 to me. Higuain gets an incomplete because we all know he's useless unless he gets service. Not his thing. No idea why Mou thinks he can contribute when Madrid are at a midfield disadvantage. Only time Higuain should be on is if we can at least hold our own in the midfield.

Ramos was playing right back . When you realize that Pepe and Ramos main problems are not the offside trap but rather picking up the runs behind them, you get a sense of how stupid this post is.

They "rely on their athleticism" because they "have no brain cells" but they sit deep behind slower attackers and ruin the offside trap? How does that even make sense.

On the 2nd and 3rd goals Pepe was behind Lewandowski playing him onside. This is not something that occurs often. He has rarely played recently and when he has it's been in midfield. This is understandable.
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by sportsczy on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:50 pm

Dude... you have no idea how defense is played. The line is not just the CBs and the offisdes is not just on runs being made on you. It's also about moving up when ball is pushed out so that the CF or other fowards are offsides if a deflection occurs. You also want them to have to concentrate on running up as opposed to just sit there and cherry pick you. You don't sit deep when the ball is coming out... it's suicidal for the defense. You basically allow everyone to still be in play.

That's the thing with positional defense... you try and eliminate threats before they happen. You can't just sit deep and react to everything against good attacking players. It's horrible and will never work. Concentration, smart and awareness are half the battle at least.

The fullbacks are just as responsible as the CBs in keeping the line. In fact, it's more difficult for them because they're farther from the CB who keys the line since CB plays the last attacker... the CF. Ramos is already an idiot and struggles with it when he's a CB and right next to the action. As a RB, he's a nightmare.

Pepe always plays behind the CF. He never never forces the CF to move up to stay onsides. That's why he keeps getting caught on these back post plays. The CF can play off his shoulder without having to worry about getting trapped.

That's the thing about Pepe and Ramos... they lack tactical awareness. It's fine against most because they have such a big athletic advantage. But when they face the best forwards and overall attacks, it shows. At least with Spain NT, the line is pushed so far up that Ramos has the ability to recover his mistakes because most of the action occurs far away from the box. They also have so much possession that there aren't that many opportunities to frak up. That's not the case at Madrid that is a counter team. With Pepe... i thought he had turned a corner at the Euro. He actually looked smooth with his positioning. But club season started and he went right back to headless chicken defending...

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Le Samourai on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:08 pm

I say Ramos was playing Right Back because, as a result of playing right back, he was permanently fixed ahead of Pepe and Varance. Never at any point last night, bar perhaps 2 runs from Jansen down the left was he behind them...or required to be behind them for any reason. No one took him down the touchline, no one did anything to carry him into a position to jeopardize the line.

How he can in any way be affecting their ability to execute an offside trap is beyond me.

You're speaking in ambiguous terms about the way defense is played. I don't disagree with any of what you say there. I disagree with the blame you attribute to players.

As I said, holding a line and a offside are Ramos lat worries as a CB. He prefers to front the last attacker so that he's always offside and so that he can cover plays near the edge of the box. His problem is losing that last attacker when he leaks behind, usually due to someone else not holding the line - usually Arbeloa. Pepe and Ramos are aggressive defenders , they push up excessively on every single play....because they have the advantage of quick recovery. I may not know anything about defense, but any idiot can see this

Arbeloa is the player who usually threatens the viability of the line. Why? because of the structural difficulties of being a fullback you mentioned and because physically he is not able to recover if beaten...which he very often is. To prevent that he plays behiind his man - at the expense of the line and does not push up. Alonso also does this when the man he is covering makes a run into the box.
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by sportsczy on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:22 pm

I don't just look at the end of the action. For example, on goal #2, both Pepe and Ramos were playing behind Varane. They need to watch him. It's obvious that Varane is used to key the positioning. But if the other defenders don't follow, it's useless. On that goal, if Pepe had been up, Ramos would have covered.

On the 3rd goal, Ramos was late contesting the shot as he was ball watching. The attacking player miss hit his shot that ended in Lewa's feet... but he had no pressure and was wide open. That should never happen with that amount of time for the ball to roll to him.

Just look at the plays Josh on replay.

There were a lot of other issues that didn't result in goals. I kept looking at the movements and coordination of our defense and it was not good. The dortmund forwards were very varied in how they moved... which exposed the lack of positional awareness of our defensive unit.

Just not good.

Varane made mistakes too, no doubt. But he was at least in the correct positions mostly.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Le Samourai on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:42 pm

On the 2nd goal he was ahead of Varane or at least keeping the line and the offside trap - as he always does. If he was playing Centre back - that goal and the third goal likely don't occur.

The criticism for the third goal is fair, however you need some context. Jansen is the left back - he just ran the length of the pitch weak side, Ramos man is on the next side of the field - he has no one to mark so he tightens as a cross comes in because that is usually one of our weaknesses.

I agree with alot - but I believe your original criticism of Ramos and Pepe was wrong, despite it fitting Pepe (alone) today. Their positioning is poor, but that's a fact derived from the fact that they are too aggressive rather than the opposite characteristics you are attributing them.

They have other problems. Those were on show as well - the first goal is a classic Ramos/Pepe error from Pepe. Focusing on the man and the line more than the ball.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Kamikaze692 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:03 pm

I dont think playing benzema ahead of Pipa would have had any bearing on the outcome. I mean ive seen enough of him to know that he just doesnt play well when he's up against opponents who press and constrict space.
Also with Benzema's tendency to drop of the front line into the space behind would not have been as effective alongside Modriç, whose movement is not as dynamic as that of Di Maria or Özil or even Kaká.
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by sportsczy on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:52 pm

I just hate defenders that stay flat footed on shots and watch. Every time a shot is about to be taken from outside or the edge of the box, you must run out. You can't sit deep. It freakin cost us 2 goals in this game because these guys don't do the fundamentals of defending.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by sportsczy on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:57 pm

@Kamikaze692 wrote:I dont think playing benzema ahead of Pipa would have had any bearing on the outcome. I mean ive seen enough of him to know that he just doesnt play well when he's up against opponents who press and constrict space.
Also with Benzema's tendency to drop of the front line into the space behind would not have been as effective alongside Modriç, whose movement is not as dynamic as that of Di Maria or Özil or even Kaká.
Without proper midfield play, Higuain is useless. It's not a criticism... it's just how he plays. He needs service. At least with Benz, he can provide the service. And the first goal was Higuain's fault because he turned the ball over right in the middle of the pitch in our territory... he made up for it later. So it's all good.

But i stand by this statement: If you are able to control or at least hold your own in midfield play, Higuain is a good option. If you are going to struggle with the middle, Higuain is not a good option. If you want your CF to be a defender mostly, then might as well not play a CF lol. Let CR7 roam in the middle and add another winger or AM.

I just don't get Mou sometimes.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Doc on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:20 pm

Defending is definitely an art form to which neither Pepe nor Ramos are any good at. Sport is correct, Varane made mistakes but he had the positional sense that top defenders generally have, Ramos and Pepe did not. Even at amateur level, they tell you to always push up whenever a ball is heading/punched/cleared out after a set piece. Varane and Ramos did, Pepe did not.

I also agree with Sam, that was some of the best pressing I've seen. Ever. It wasn't even headless pressing, they knew exactly what they were doing and when to do it.

All in all, when two top sides play, it's usually the simple things that can win you a match or lose you one. In this case, Mourinho tried to mix counter with control and he got neither whilst Dortmund stuck to their simple yet skillful set up and won convincingly.

On to the second leg. May the spirit of Juanito, Jesus and god damn common sense help us...

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Nedved on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:29 pm

In Chess terms - Madrid prepared for Time Control game and they got Blitz and Blitz is played in the center.

Klopp said -"Give Madrid ball and they don't know what to do with it".

Forget about not knowing what to do, We couldn't hold on to the ball and we kept losing it cheaply. Mou knew Madrids' limitations in terms of ball control in the middle(Khedira is never good at it). Perhaps Modric selection is for this reason. Even though he tried, he couldn't cope the physicality of BVB Midfield. Alonso surprisingly lost the ball as many times as Khedira. This pretty much killed the game - no service to attackers.

Coming back to German Blitz - their pressing was so intense in initial period of both halves, Madrid midfield/defense could n't cope with it. we simply had no answer as Mou summarized. Hindsight always is a wonderful thing.

If not for CR7 & Diego Lopez we could have lost even badly. Hope we can win 3-0 in 2nd leg.


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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Le Samourai on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:36 pm

@Nedved wrote:In Chess terms - Madrid prepared for Time Control game and they got Blitz and Blitz is played in the center.

Klopp said -"Give Madrid ball and they don't know what to do with it".

Forget about not knowing what to do, We couldn't hold on to the ball and we kept losing it cheaply. Mou knew Madrids' limitations in terms of ball control in the middle(Khedira is never good at it). Perhaps Modric selection is for this reason. Even though he tried, he couldn't cope the physicality of BVB Midfield. Alonso surprisingly lost the ball as many times as Khedira. This pretty much killed the game - no service to attackers.

Coming back to German Blitz - their pressing was so intense in initial period of both halves, Madrid midfield/defense could n't cope with it. we simply had no answer as Mou summarized. Hindsight always is a wonderful thing.

If not for CR7 & Diego Lopez we could have lost even badly. Hope we can win 3-0 in 2nd leg.




Well to me - this particular problem was one 3 years in the making. It's all well and good to say hey...this is a limitation.

But It's a limitation the players themselves wanted to fix...and that never happened. Moreover than that, it was a salient point in the player/management conflicts...that some players are heavily criticized for.

You don't just throw on a player and say here fix this issue, we as management have completely ignore it - but we expect you to bail us out.

It's cathartic that it comes back to bite us like this. It's even more ironic when you realize that Dortmund did exactly what we have found success in for quite some time.
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by guest7 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:38 pm

great posts sport, cant disagree with anything here really Thumbs up
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by BarcaLearning on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:40 pm

Obviously though Mou wanted Modric to take control with the midfield or at least thought they could compete and not get completely bossed like it happened and planned that Higuain would get service.
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by sportsczy on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:54 pm

@BarcaLearning wrote:Obviously though Mou wanted Modric to take control with the midfield or at least thought they could compete and not get completely bossed like it happened and planned that Higuain would get service.
If you watch Madrid... you realize that there's no way Mou could have thought that. We've never held our own in the midfield against a top team when we've played a 2-man mid and Di Maria hasn't played. Alonso and Khedira are too slow and they need defensive cover help. As soon as i saw that Ozil and Modric were playing at the same time, i knew we were in trouble. Both our starting mids have trouble with speed and technique.

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by guest7 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:27 pm

i think mou expected much better pressing from us though, i think thats why he went 3 man midfield. mou explained the specifics in the post game conference imo, we wanted to win the individual battle in the middle by pressing but dortmund pressed better and controlled it aswell.

My starting line up for 2nd tie:

Arbeloa - Ramos - Varane - Coentrao
Khedira - Pepe
Modric
Di Maria - Benzema - CR

We need to press them harder in the midfield, once that's done, the game opens up. I can see Mou playing this tbh
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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by Cyborg on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:12 am

modric was the flop of the match, after pepe. why would he start ahead of ozil.

ozil is much better in all attacking aspects than modric, why would mourinho replace ozil with modric. this game is too important for modric to start, for me.

mourinho will go with the usual line up.

but what about this one

diego lopez
arbeloa--varane-ramos--coentrao
alonso-khedira
kaka-ozil-ronaldo
di maria

kaka in for benzema. just because i think that we need all our player in the game. they controlled the midfield, and starved higuain. this happened in both group stage games and again this week.

i know that its looks funny on paper, but we have to score early and i think these player do it.

they can control the ball, get in and around the box and get chances on goal. these are the best player for this game.

remember dortmund has a three goal lead, we are the ones that need to be pressing forward not them.

it a stretch, what do you all think.


Last edited by Cyborg on Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Champions League: Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund discussion

Post by FalcaoPunch on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:12 am

Please don't include Pepe in midfield.
Or I will report you for trolling :coffee:










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