What should be our plan forward now?

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What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:10 pm

Well as with my conclusion after the 0-4 loss, I have come to the conclusion a few things are clear -

- We are struggling more often vs more oppositions
- Tika taka has weaknesses but we always just stick to it without showing much flexibility in our tactics and play, we have tried to evolve but clearly not enough
- Other clubs like Bayern are catching up and becomnig even more complete and perhaps stronger than us
- Pep gone, players aging, youngsters coming in does affect the team's level, even the slightest, can mean greatness or being second best, fine margin

So I wonder what do u all especially the experts think about this? Razz I read some posts from amongst many like futbol/sports/dani, etc. and learn a lot that I just dont realise myself, so I look forward to all your opinions.

futbol said that Pep didnt intend for the false 9 and he tried to evolve the team with a real striker, which was surprising to me, as I always thought it was Pep that started it Razz On this subject, I ask again what do u think was the real reason Pep left, really just tiredness? Or evolution fail as in no working out anymore? If he is still here what would he be doing tactics and strats wise with the team?

I really think this is the most important issue now we face, we have the club setup well and players clearly, but tika taka beats all is not longer working....

Thanks in advance and hope for good discussions Sad scratch
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by sportsczy on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:15 pm

from an outsider's view: Need a CB, a LB and a true scoring forward. Tello should become a starter too.

Not too many things to fix. Team just lost focus and the elite caught up.

Thiago is ready when Xavi slows down and Iniesta looks fine.

Only real unknown is Pique. He's really not impressive right now and it's been like that for a while.

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by Brady2Moss on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:16 pm

@sportsczy wrote:from an outsider's view: Need a CB, a LB and a true scoring forward. Tello should become a starter too.

Not too many things to fix. Team just lost focus and the elite caught up.

Thiago is ready when Xavi slows down and Iniesta looks fine.

Only real unknown is Pique. He's really not impressive right now and it's been like that for a while.

lol Tello a starter?

Oh wait, coming from a Madrid fan it all makes sense now. Laughing

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by Brady2Moss on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:27 pm

What Barca needs is two tall , quick CBs. Pique seems to be getting more complacent with each passing game. Puyol needs to retire, and Abidal should take a lesser role in defense and only used minimally. Mascherano needs to move on. A goalkeeper should be a priority since Valdez will not be renewing his contract.

Moving on, midfield is okay. No need to change anything. Thiago, Song and Fabregas make fine replacements for Iniesta, Busquets and Xavi.

Pedro should be dropped from the first 11. Sanchez and Villa should be sold and replaced with a quick winger and a solid striker. Tello can continue in his bench player role.

Due to his health issues, I feel Tito should step down.








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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by Onyx on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:30 pm

To begin with Messi didn't drop deep as much as he usually would tonight. So I don't think that was the problem. Bayern were just defensively organised and solid. I'm sure any team would have struggled to break down their defense.

In terms of Barca improving, they definitely need better forwards. Sanchez turned out to be a flop obviously, Pedro's off form and doesn't offer much and Villa's getting older. Tello is still kinda young and I think he should remain a bench player. Barca need to try and get a winger who's good at everything attacking wise. Someone who's quick, good at dribbling, good at finishing, passing etc. Neymar could be that player.

The defense definitely needs to be improved. Bartra isn't good enough, Mascherano's a bench player and Puyol's obviously getting older. So a CB. In terms of fullback, someone tall and defensively solid is needed. Alves and Alba aren't the tallest and both are attacking fullbacks.

Other than that I think Barca are alright. Whenever Barca face a team who are solid and don't allow them to create chances, they need to think of another tactic. Currently they just pass about to no avail.
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by messixaviesta on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:41 pm

@sportsczy wrote:from an outsider's view: Need a CB, a LB and a true scoring forward. Tello should become a starter too.

Not too many things to fix. Team just lost focus and the elite caught up.

Thiago is ready when Xavi slows down and Iniesta looks fine.

Only real unknown is Pique. He's really not impressive right now and it's been like that for a while.

Great post. I would say though that more than the team losing focus those in charge of transfers lost focus. At times they didn't do enough at the right time and when they did they didn't do it intelligently enough.


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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by Ganso on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:45 pm

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by messixaviesta on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:47 pm

There is PSG. There is ManCity. There is Bayern. There is Madrid. Even then in the summer window of 2013 Barca could be the most active club because we have just received a tight slap on our face and there have got to be REACTIONS now.

After being beaten 4-0 by us in 2009, Bayern bought Robben the next summer.

After being beaten 4-0 by Liverpool in 2009, Madrid bought Cristiano the next summer.

There are several precedents. Big clubs don't take such things lying down. The reaction in times like these often typifies a big club.

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:56 pm

Hang on...I understand it could be true that there arent too many things to fix...but it is clear to me that so often, even at times during our dominate years in 2008-2010 or so, we always just have 1 game plan without showng any flexibility and from what I know Tito is like this too, will this be good enough vs top teams and smart managers that counter us next season say?

What I mean is apart from players positions and players form, the whole team/manager tactics need to change or evolve a bit more to at least have more flexibility in countering oppositions I hope....

sports I see u rate Thiago, and I guess its impossible to find a new Xavi so that fair...anyway, a CB is a must and a scoring forward as Villa is past his best I agree...Pedro and him used to share so much of the scoring load....while Tello may or may not make it...

As mentioned by messixaviesta, other teams with probably even more buying power and active in the markets moving for the best players, i do fear if we are able to get the best options too....
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:59 pm

@Brady2Moss wrote:What Barca needs is two tall , quick CBs. Pique seems to be getting more complacent with each passing game. Puyol needs to retire, and Abidal should take a lesser role in defense and only used minimally. Mascherano needs to move on. A goalkeeper should be a priority since Valdez will not be renewing his contract.

Moving on, midfield is okay. No need to change anything. Thiago, Song and Fabregas make fine replacements for Iniesta, Busquets and Xavi.

Pedro should be dropped from the first 11. Sanchez and Villa should be sold and replaced with a quick winger and a solid striker. Tello can continue in his bench player role.

Due to his health issues, I feel Tito should step down.


The team having been through an era with the real Barca ppl and philosophy, I can only imagine someone to come in with the same, or similar ideas and style... Im not sure who are the choices.... certainly not easy to find another Pep Razz
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by CBarca on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:01 pm

Our 1 game plan won us countless titles. There isn't anything wrong with the gameplan, as evidenced by our success. Rather, the players ability to execute that game plan and the players ability in general.

Besides, pressing has been abandoned which is a major part of our game plan. And that's one of the biggest problems if not the biggest one.

I'm not going to overreact though. The same things I stressed months before this (and all of us stressed actually) are the same changes I want to see now. This result changes nothing except a confirmation that the problems we highlighted earlier in the season are very real (but we knew that already).

That's aside the humiliation and embarrassment.

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:13 pm

@CBarca wrote:Our 1 game plan won us countless titles. There isn't anything wrong with the gameplan, as evidenced by our success. Rather, the players ability to execute that game plan and the players ability in general.

Besides, pressing has been abandoned which is a major part of our game plan. And that's one of the biggest problems if not the biggest one.

I'm not going to overreact though. The same things I stressed months before this (and all of us stressed actually) are the same changes I want to see now. This result changes nothing except a confirmation that the problems we highlighted earlier in the season are very real (but we knew that already).

That's aside the humiliation and embarrassment.

Im not so sure about all the talk about our pressing being abondoned, we still press clearly, but just not as well as we do right?

Some comments from outsiders about Messi's workrate...he used to do more pressing and still do his share but at times especially in this game he does not do enough I thought was to conserve energy which is clearly reasonable for him since he uses so much intense energy in bursts... but I think what it is is the overall team pressing level has dropped? We used to press like Bayern does these days?
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:32 am

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/5226?cc=4716

Just saw this and a lot of it spot on especially the second part.... although I really hope for Barca's problem it is really just basic housekeeping stuff that needs to be sorted... and more of just nature 'relaxation' or drop in level in aspects of the club/team....

Im worried about the transfer of Martinez in particular....anybody know why if Barca were really interested in signing him or not, of cos 40M werent cheap and I think many ppl thought it was overvalued... but Bayern able to spend lots of money consistently... and has built up formidable side + Gozte at least next season Shocked
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by windkick on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:47 am

get rid of Alexis and replacing him with some one who doesn't suck and getting a good CB would be a good start.

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by eelir on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:01 am

Also a defensive minded taller fullback. With Abi we could easilly switch to 3 man defense and let Alves venture forward. With both Alba and Alves the defense does not seam to cope with counters and aerial duels.

This provided that Abi does not continue his contract. Do we have someone from cantera beside Montoya?
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:19 am

I just read Michael Cox's article as well and realise a lot of it is mentioned in this forum Very Happy Good to know...

Although wonder what will happen... to Barca and Bayern in the next few seasons Razz
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:03 am

To be brutally honest I do think that we need a new manager as well. We can spend a good amount of money and buy some important players for various positions but the team also needs fresh ideas and strong guidance. Look at all the clubs who have spent big money to elevate their status. None have managed to do anything without the right man at the top.

alfred actually made a brilliant suggestion which yesterday I ignored due to the mind being somewhere else but it later hit me. Getting Jupp Heynckes for some time sounds like a good idea. Hell even for one year it might be an interesting change till we can find someone in-house or very Barca like so to say. Heynckes is clearly angry that Bayern did not do enough to convince him to stay and chased Pep instead. He has been almost completely vindicated and if they win the UCL then there won't be any questions. I think any offer from Barca right now would make him jump for sure.

We don't want to disrespect Tito. We have the highest regards for him and we thank him immensely for all that he has done but some things are not meant to be. Due to his severe illness we will never know for sure whether he was the right man to take over the top job or not. It seems to me that 90% of number 2s around the world fail when they are made number 1. Sometimes the failure is not immediately apparent and the first few months may even go great but time eventually tells. A great example of this is Carlos Queiroz at Madrid in 2003-04. Could Tito have been one of the exceptions? Your guess is as good as mine but my gut feeling is not really. He tried to continue Pep's legacy. We need someone who can put in a lot of fresh thought. See the competitive world is absolutely ruthless. Time is of the utmost essence and it waits for none. We can't ask Tito to leave considering everything that has happened but perhaps he himself should just throw in the towel and concentrate completely on his health instead which anyway is bigger than any competition or trophy.


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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:00 am

@messixaviesta wrote:After being beaten 4-0 by us in 2009, Bayern bought Robben the next summer.

After being beaten 4-0 by Liverpool in 2009, Madrid bought Cristiano the next summer.

After being beaten 4-0 by Barcelona, Milan will renew Bonera.

I don't really have the time for a long post, however I would like to simply note that the most important point to make is that the core of the team remains strong. It's indicative of a team that isn't in need of transition, simply a readjustment of those around the same central core that has brought success. Big changes to my mind means drastically altering the pillars of the team. At most, this group needs to be supplemented by one key player in defence and one key player in attack. More than anything, the team needs to rediscover its energy without the ball and get back to winning the ball in the opposition half consistently. Whether it is motivation, attitude or the intensity in training, a great team has looked ordinary far too often this year.
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:49 am

dost, interesting comments. When you say the core of the team doesn't need to be changed there are various ways of looking at it. I would say Pep and Xavi have been very much core of this team. Pep moved last year. Xavi will slowly fade. In that sense to my mind this will be like building a new team. Your point about lack of intensity in training could be true. Somehow the memories of 2007-08 keep coming back. One of the biggest problems then was the training quality.

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by sportsczy on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:32 am

The one thing I'll add is that Barca has become too focused on finding players that fit the system as opposed to getting the best talent possible and trusting that the talent can adapt...

Neymar is a must to me. Barca need him badly. One of Sakho or Mangala as a CB... forget Hummels. You don't need another suspect defender as a CB that is better known for his ball playing skills and shot. At LB, i only know the good french ones and those are Digne and Umtiti. Both are very young and very good. Abidal has a good year left in him to help.

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:41 am

This is really a dilemma isnt it....whether we should stick to the same and reinforce the key positions as we still essentially have the core still so to speak. Neymar I agree looks very good and his talent will add to the team for sure.

Otherwise if we change manager and have drastic change thats a risk in itself and may mean a lot of different results.... there must be a lot of choices but Jupp come to think of it could be nice, I mean if hes still got the passion and energy, I would like to see that tried, although I doubt that would happen....

Or we may have something in between the 2 extremes... which I dont know is what Razz
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by kabarca on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:48 pm

Honestly i know what im about to say would never happen but this is what i think barca should do:

I think every era of every team has an expiration date and we reached ours so we need to renew, just like we renewed by bringing in pep,alves,etc

OUT:
pique,does not fit with hummels and is too inconsistent,i think replacing him with hummels would be the better option(20 mil)

mascherano,had a very poor season,not really a cb and cant play dm for barca,we can use the money from his sale(15 mil)

adriano,too injury prone and his contract is ending soon(8 mil)

alexis,great talent but im afraid just won't work at barca(17-20 mil)

fabregas,always thought he's good and wee need to wait and he'll be a future captain but considering he'll be a bench player for the next 2-3 season we can invest the money from his sale in a better way(30 mil+)

bojan + afellay(5-8 mil each)


IN: Hummels,Reus,Cavani,marquinhos,deulofeu,muniesa

I love Neymar but honestly I think he's more of a luxary than something we really need and I believe Rues would fit much better.

Another point is I think messishould be rested whenever possible and take off when games are already won and he should press just like all the other players when he does play

_______________Valdes_______________
_______marquinhos_Hummels_Abidal ____
Alves__xavi___busquets__Iniesta_______
______________Messi_________Rues___
_____________Cavani________________

I knw this probably wont happen in a million years but I realy do believe that such change is waht is neccessarily to get this team back to the heights of 08-12
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarcaLearning on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:33 pm

I havent watched Reus enough, but his forms not as good lately compared with his peak....obviously will try to watch both in the CL semis both legs to learn more... although Gozte rated even higher and Bayern got him... These days there are so many clubs with buy spending power, I will we also need to fight in order to out bid at times and attract the top talents to us....
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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by alexjanosik on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:31 pm

I dont think we need any radical changes.And I most certainly dont approve of the idiotic idea that we need a plan B or something of the sort.
We stick to our philosophy but implement it fully like the first 3 years under Pep.That means going back to our intense pressing game and restructuring our offense to make it less dependent on Messi.
Running our entire offense through Messi has made us a bit predictable.It also limits the game of our other forwards and turns them into mere runners /decoys. We make the offense less reliant on Messi,share the load and actually get a forward who is not afraid of taking the initiative and there is no player who suits the bill more than Luis Suarez.The latest incident means that there is a very real chance that he moves.I am sure that if we make a move,he would jump.He is tremendously skilled,tenacious,works hard and is versatile.A Messi-Suarez combo will be legendary.

On the defensive end,we get a real CB.Someone who can actually defend.No more turning DM's into CB's.

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Re: What should be our plan forward now?

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:39 pm

We don't need to change the manager, let alone style, it would be terribly unfair to Tito who frankly did a phenomenal job until he suffered the recurrence of his cancer. I would give him one more season.

What we need to do is re-new the squad with new and ambitious faces. We just need to diversify the goal threats and sign athletic CBs and LBs that will boost our set piece performance. The LB doesn't even need to be a start all games, just be an athletic and defensive option to Alba. A WC GK too if one is available on the market. I'm assuming the club will never sell a Catalan player unless they don't have to. So:

Sell: Alexis, Valdes, Masche and Song and Villa if they want out due to lack of playing time.
Promote: Deulofeu.
Sign Nerman (are we even considering anyone else?), WC GK, Tall, athletic and physical CBs & LBs.

New GK
Alves - Pique - New CB - New LB/Alba
Xavi/Thiago - Busquets - Iniesta
Deulofeu/Pedro - Messi - Neymar

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