Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by VendettaRed07 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:37 pm

@iftikhar wrote:Do you think it would be good if Leagues from Scotland, Welsh, Ireland & N. Ireland are merged with different levels of English Leagues!!! I don't understand what purpose those leagues are serving ATM.

League wise ?.. No I don't think this would work


However, I think a cup based competition would be fantastic. Would give a huge boost to Irish and welsh domestic leagues.

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Eivindo on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:38 pm

Scandinavian league should have been formed, at least Norwegian and Swedish. Expensive flights tho
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by El Chelsea Fuerte on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:56 pm

What are these leagues?

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by iftikhar on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:56 pm

The increase of matchday revenue is questionable, though. If the distances are too large, then the number of away fans might be much lower, thus an increase of the size of the audience is not a given.
We are talking about Dutch & Belgian Leagues, so distance question doesn't rise.

League wise ?.. No I don't think this would work
Why!!!

What are these leagues?
Are you that Milk-Carton Guy!!!
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by ExtremistEnigma on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:04 pm

Scottish League should merge with EPL and I can foresee it happening after Celtic wins 10 league titles in a row. Atleast Celtic should join in.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by VendettaRed07 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:13 pm

Because leagues like the League of Ireland, Irish premier league, and Welsh Premier league, bar a few exceptions like Linfield, Cork City, etc, don't even average over 1,000 people a game at home. The best teams, at the most bring in just under 3000, which is poor even in the SPL. So how many of those people will make the trek cross country, by boat, plane, etc to see their team play on a weekly basis? Probably slim to none. It wouldn't boost weekly attendances for anyone, I don't think.

Thats why I think a cup, however, would make more sense. I think, for a special occasion, fans would make the trip. Would be able to hype it up and would be something for fans from teams from all leagues would have to look forward to.

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by iftikhar on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:17 pm

the lower leagues are regional based competitions, so that shouldn't pose any logistics issue.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by El Chelsea Fuerte on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:20 pm

@ExtremistEnigma wrote:Scottish League should merge with EPL and I can foresee it happening after Celtic wins 10 league titles in a row. Atleast Celtic should join in.

Yes please. If Welsh clubs can come in, so should Scottish clubs. Would make PL more competitive. Anywho that's the only league that matters in GB.

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by VendettaRed07 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:25 pm

@ExtremistEnigma wrote:Scottish League should merge with EPL and I can foresee it happening after Celtic wins 10 league titles in a row. Atleast Celtic should join in.

Celtic would never do it. SPL fans would never have it either.

Celtic if they joined the EPL, would have to start from the bottom tier. Assuming they gained promotion every single year, which would be unlikely, then got to Europe their very first year up in the prem, which would also be unlikely, they'd miss out on 6 years of European football, at the very least. That's best case scenario, so they would never ever go for that.

Not to mention, teams outside the oldfirm, while they are far away from being able to win the league title in Scotland, they would be eons away in England.

Something needs to be done to help out competitiveness in the SPL, for sure.. But moving to the EPL isn't the answer, imo.

If it were up to me, I'd get rid of the four divisions.. Merge them all into just 2. 18 top flight teams, 24 second division teams, and have a playoff against the top 4 teams to win the league. Semi-final over two legs, then a final against the two winners. Would be a big event, a single game that would demand a lot of attention.. Big game scenario's is something which Scottish football is desperately missing..

That would help out teams by making it so they aren't playing the same sides every weak, and give teams more of a fair shake to win. Hope sells. Playoffs = hope.


Last edited by VendettaRed07 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Art Morte on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:29 pm

@iftikhar wrote:the lower leagues are regional based competitions, so that shouldn't pose any logistics issue.

So they remain in their region, in other words: no merging takes place.


I wasn't referring to that much lower leagues earlier, btw. The Football League in England (Championship, League One and League Two) is not regional and surely we would be looking places in it for several Scottish clubs, so there would actually be logistical issues. And below the Football League level, there's no point whatsoever to merge anything.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Art Morte on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:36 pm

@VendettaRed07 wrote:
@ExtremistEnigma wrote:Scottish League should merge with EPL and I can foresee it happening after Celtic wins 10 league titles in a row. Atleast Celtic should join in.

Celtic would never do it. SPL fans would never have it either.

Celtic if they joined the EPL, would have to start from the bottom tier. Assuming they gained promotion every single year, which would be unlikely, then got to Europe their very first year up in the prem, which would also be unlikely, they'd miss out on 6 years of European football, at the very least. That's best case scenario, so they would never ever go for that.

Not to mention, teams outside the oldfirm, while they are far away from being able to win the league title in Scotland, they would be eons away in England.

But it's no good to have such a boring league, either, where it's a one-horse race, maybe later a two-horse race when Rangers reach their pre-bankruptcy level. Celtic are too big for the Scottish Premier League.

What I would do is have only three play-off spots in the Championship in England in one season and let Celtic enter the promotion play-offs wild card style. If they come out victorious from those play-offs, let them enter the English Premier League the next season. If not, let them choose whether they play in the Championship next season or remain in Scotland for good.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by ExtremistEnigma on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:37 pm

@VendettaRed07 wrote:
@ExtremistEnigma wrote:Scottish League should merge with EPL and I can foresee it happening after Celtic wins 10 league titles in a row. Atleast Celtic should join in.

Celtic would never do it. SPL fans would never have it either.

Celtic if they joined the EPL, would have to start from the bottom tier. Assuming they gained promotion every single year, which would be unlikely, then got to Europe their very first year up in the prem, which would also be unlikely, they'd miss out on 6 years of European football, at the very least. That's best case scenario, so they would never ever go for that.

Not to mention, teams outside the oldfirm, while they are far away from being able to win the league title in Scotland, they would be eons away in England.

Something needs to be done to help out competitiveness in the SPL, for sure.. But moving to the EPL isn't the answer, imo.

If it were up to me, I'd get rid of the four divisions.. Merge them all into just 2. 18 top flight teams, 24 second division teams, and have a playoff against the top 4 teams to win the league. Semi-final over two legs, then a final against the two winners. Would be a big event, a single game that would demand a lot of attention.. Big game scenario's is something which Scottish football is desperately missing..

That would help out teams by making it so they aren't playing the same sides every weak, and give teams more of a fair shake to win. Hope sells. Playoffs = hope.
So will the fans be satisfied and ecstatic with winning the league title every year without any competition? Not to mention the revenue Celtic will earn by playing in the Premier League will be much higher, will allow them to get mainstream attention, and more chances of getting into deeper stages of the Champions League, and thus more revenue again.

It's similar to how players want to move from Celtic to even midtable Premier League clubs such as Norwich. They want to boost their career prospects. Likewise, if Celtic want to really develop as a club and a global brand, it would be wise to join in to the PL.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by VendettaRed07 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:55 pm

I get all of that, but as hollow as their title winning streak is now, they feel they are in a pretty good spot where they are. Their fans have gotten bored, most won't admit it, but the dip in attendances and atmosphere at Celtic Park is telling.

I just still think it's better for them if other SPL teams got better, rather than risking a decade of low league football and global irrelevance. The upside if all things went right is pretty good.. but I highly doubt any english clubs or the English FA, would welcome them with open arms or do any special favors to speed up their promotion process. All that time, who knows what will happen to their fan base. I think its a much bigger risk tp their brand than many think.

A problem is the league structure is basically a clone of the way it is in England.. If they rethought how the league would work, and totally redefined the rules, i think many of their issues and the leagues issues in general could be solved.

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by iftikhar on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:17 pm

I think several Scottish & Irish teams will be eligible for top three tires of English Football System. But while they would be traveling further than have been so far, it wouldn't be further than Middlesbrough to Bournmouth (430km) in tire-2 or Carlisle to Crawley (430km) in tire-3 or Hartlepool to Plymouth (515km) in tire-4.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by rwo power on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:20 pm

@iftikhar wrote:
The increase of matchday revenue is questionable, though. If the distances are too large, then the number of away fans might be much lower, thus an increase of the size of the audience is not a given.
We are talking about Dutch & Belgian Leagues, so distance question doesn't rise.
Yeah, possibly. But did you know that the distance question was one one the arguments against the merger if the Austrian and Swiss league? I guess especially for people from slightly larger countries this probably sounds inconceivable. ^^

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Betty La Fea on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:24 pm

Celtic should have a chance to spank Arsenal two times a year too.

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by iftikhar on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:26 pm

@rwo power wrote:
@iftikhar wrote:
The increase of matchday revenue is questionable, though. If the distances are too large, then the number of away fans might be much lower, thus an increase of the size of the audience is not a given.
We are talking about Dutch & Belgian Leagues, so distance question doesn't rise.
Yeah, possibly. But did you know that the distance question was one one the arguments against the merger if the Austrian and Swiss league? I guess especially for people from slightly larger countries this probably sounds inconceivable. ^^

Really!!! Yes the terrain is difficult, specially during winter; but given the size of Austria & Switzerland most German & French teams probably travel more. I think they put up this argument to stall the process. Most authorities would prefer to boss over their tiny leagues rather than be part of something bigger, IMO.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by El Chelsea Fuerte on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:49 pm

@Betty La Fea wrote:Celtic should have a chance to spank Arsenal two times a year too.

nope

as shit as arsenal are they'd walk celtic

celtic would have a hard time being midtable

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by VendettaRed07 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:30 pm

@El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:
@Betty La Fea wrote:Celtic should have a chance to spank Arsenal two times a year too.

Arsenal are a top side, they'd walk celtic

celtic would have a hard time being midtable

Very true.

Look, we can say they are too big for Scotland.. But being in Scotland is how they got as big as they are in the first place.

In the states.. I've met tons and tons of old firm fans. You know how many Aston Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland, Hull City and Norwich fans I've met?

Precisely 0. I think I saw a guy wearing a Newcastle Jersey once.. But thats it. Not many people outside of england care about those clubs. And it would take Celtic, a decade, at the very least to get to the top flight and start getting results on a regular basis similar to theirs.. And as far as competing with teams like Liverpool, Arsenal, United, Everton, Chelsea, etc.. Those teams have been in the English system for over a 100 years, there is absolutely no chance they just let a team from Scotland, come in and start taking their titles away.

Sure, they sell their players to midtable clubs in england.. But, all becoming a midtable club in England would change is that they would be selling their players to the top 6 english sides instead... So, what good is that? Going from winning hollow trophies, while also getting a shot at the best clubs in the world in the CL, to being stagnant in the EPL, no europe, and playing the better clubs in england, isn't much of an improvement.

A lot has just changed recently since Rangers liquidation. I mean, finally, they united the SPL, and the SFL, revenue sharing increased.. and attendances around the league have actually risen. With Hearts liquidation looming, and Rangers looking to go into administration, yet AGAIN.. I don't see the old firm going back to the way it was and distracting everybody from the real problems with the league.

I think more will be done soon to improve competitiveness and make a better situation for non oldfirm fans, and not let Celtic walk in the season with a guaranteed title every year. The best scenario is just to fix scotland, not defect to england. Doesn't really do anyone any good.

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Art Morte on Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:00 pm

Maybe there could be a try-out period for Celtic in the English Premier League. Play there for a couple of years, then decide whether they want to stay in the English system or return to SPL.

I'm pretty sure Cardiff and Swansea fans are happier to be in the English system, because they would be too big for the Welsh one - like Celtic is for the Scottish one. So I think Celtic should at least try it out.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Curtinho on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:48 pm

I'm not a huge follower of the business side of things so I want to bring a question to this topic. What kind of financial impact would it have on the Eredivisie if they were to merge with the Belgian top flight? If this 'BeNe League' was made would it potentially allow for more talent to be kept as opposed to being a launching pad for the 'bigger' leagues? For example could it prevent something along the lines of Strootman to Roma? I know it's impossible for the Eredivisie to hope to thwart off the true juggernauts such as top teams from the EPL, Bundesliga and La Liga, but to become one of the top 5 - 6 leagues again would give some time for thought for sure.

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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Art Morte on Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:51 pm

El Cujo wrote:I'm not a huge follower of the business side of things so I want to bring a question to this topic. What kind of financial impact would it have on the Eredivisie if they were to merge with the Belgian top flight? If this 'BeNe League' was made would it potentially allow for more talent to be kept as opposed to being a launching pad for the 'bigger' leagues? For example could it prevent something along the lines of Strootman to Roma? I know it's impossible for the Eredivisie to hope to thwart off the true juggernauts such as top teams from the EPL, Bundesliga and La Liga, but to become one of the top 5 - 6 leagues again would give some time for thought for sure.

I don't know, here's just what I reckon:

- Matchday income: It might grow a little when, presumably, the smaller clubs from each league would drop out of the top division, which would most likely consist of the biggest clubs from both countries. So, bigger stadium average capacity in the league, bigger fan bases, maybe could charge more money for tickets.

- Broadcast income: I don't think the overall appeal, especially outside of Belgium / Netherlands, would increase much, so I don't think there would be significantly higher TV deals on offer.

- Commercial income: I guess it could grow a little, since the clubs would be now presented more visibly in their neighbouring country, too.

But overall, I don't think there would be a meaningful increase in revenue streams, but the quality of the league would be higher, because you'd have the better half of clubs from both leagues. It just wouldn't be enough to attract a greater global audience, I don't think so.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by zigra on Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:21 am

Last time I read about it we had a revenue of a bit more than 100m. Merging the leagues we might get to something like 120-130 but imo that's about it. It would still be a very small league that people outside the two countries wouldn't really care about as Art Morte pointed out.
Btw the current TV deal of the Eredivsie runs for another 10 years or so.. Laughing

Some young players might stay a bit longer because they wouldn't outgrow the league as fast as they currently do. But all in all I doubt it would have any major impact. The situation is what it is. People have to deal with the fact that there are smaller and bigger leagues as long as they don't want to completely change the whole system.
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by farfan on Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:14 am

how about the top 3 portuguese teams in la liga?

can you imagine porto with that increased TV revenue and sponsorship ?
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Robespierre on Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:21 am

@Art Morte wrote:Maybe there could be a try-out period for Celtic in the English Premier League. Play there for a couple of years, then decide whether they want to stay in the English system or return to SPL.

I'm pretty sure Cardiff and Swansea fans are happier to be in the English system, because they would be too big for the Welsh one - like Celtic is for the Scottish one. So I think Celtic should at least try it out.

I knew Celtic wants it, Scottish clubs not ( the Scottish league still is scrub, if they lose also Celtic and Rangers are really as the Irish league, not even decent players ) , English clubs not .
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Re: Should Some Leagues Merge!!!

Post by Curtinho on Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:01 am

@Art Morte wrote:
El Cujo wrote:I'm not a huge follower of the business side of things so I want to bring a question to this topic. What kind of financial impact would it have on the Eredivisie if they were to merge with the Belgian top flight? If this 'BeNe League' was made would it potentially allow for more talent to be kept as opposed to being a launching pad for the 'bigger' leagues? For example could it prevent something along the lines of Strootman to Roma? I know it's impossible for the Eredivisie to hope to thwart off the true juggernauts such as top teams from the EPL, Bundesliga and La Liga, but to become one of the top 5 - 6 leagues again would give some time for thought for sure.

I don't know, here's just what I reckon:

- Matchday income: It might grow a little when, presumably, the smaller clubs from each league would drop out of the top division, which would most likely consist of the biggest clubs from both countries. So, bigger stadium average capacity in the league, bigger fan bases, maybe could charge more money for tickets.

- Broadcast income: I don't think the overall appeal, especially outside of Belgium / Netherlands, would increase much, so I don't think there would be significantly higher TV deals on offer.

- Commercial income: I guess it could grow a little, since the clubs would be now presented more visibly in their neighbouring country, too.

But overall, I don't think there would be a meaningful increase in revenue streams, but the quality of the league would be higher, because you'd have the better half of clubs from both leagues. It just wouldn't be enough to attract a greater global audience, I don't think so.

Well, this is what I was informed of:

This is the idea that Standard owner Roland Duchatelet has been trying to push through the last few years.

NL (pop. 17 million) BE (pop. 11 million)
BeNeLiga: 12 Dutch and 8 Belgian clubs
Second tier: two separated domestic leagues with no relegation (20 teams each)

After each season, the bottom three relegate from the BeNeLiga.
The two domestic champions promote automatically.
Third ticket is based on nationality. If 2 Dutch teams relegate, then the final spot will be filled by a team from the Netherlands.
If three teams from the same nation relegate, that nation gets just 2 tickets.

Both nations get approximately 70 million euro/year for the TV-rights. Duchatelet reckons that this number will grow to 250 million/year with the establishment of the BeNeLiga. 1/4 of that amount would go to the two domestic leagues. The other 200 million can be split among BeNeLiga teams. This sounds very nice and all, but I think the gap would be to wide between the BeNeLiga and the small clubs. I don't see any staying up at the end of their first season in the highest tier.

If this is the format and the estimations are true it would be huge for Dutch and Belgian ball IMO.

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