The counter argument to ''Ronaldo makes up for it with his scoring ''

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Post by Le Samourai on Sun May 26, 2013 9:33 pm

For others to help out others need to be involved - and the game needs to be played with their strengths in mind.

I don't see the point, you have players whose very approach to the game who perfectly compliment what he's trying to do and who will ensure that everyone on the team is given their fair share, and you run through Ronaldo. Our attack should be run FOR Ronaldo, not run THROUGH him.

It's a subtle and important difference.

And it really doesn't matter whether he changes or not - at least not in terms of the game (It does earn some credit) - or he tries to involve others or not unnless we buy someone who will capitalize on the irregular and difficult chances he creates. It's not really a criticism of him as it's a criticism of the attitude of the entire team.

The coach needs to adapt and get the entire team out of this mould.


Last edited by Le Samourai on Sun May 26, 2013 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by sportsczy on Sun May 26, 2013 9:41 pm

Stevie... i also played a ton and competitively. As a winger, you're supposed to read the fullback you are facing. If the fullback is going forward, as a winger, you're supposed to follow until you feel a midfielder is there to cover you. If you see the midfielder there, you don't need to track back. But if your own fullback is looking at a 2 on 1 potentially, you must run... i don't care if you're Messi or CR7. CR7 leaves his fullback facing 2 very often. That is a sin. But other than that, he doesn't need to track back.

If you don't want the responisbility, then become a CF.

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Post by StevieRayVaughan on Sun May 26, 2013 11:32 pm

While I agree with you that tracking back in certain situations is absolutely mandotary ( like the one you mentioned), Real is not a posession based team, they excel right at the moment they get the ball back from the other team. Now right at that moment, if CR7 has tracked back then he is in no position to lead the attack. Tracking back takes a toll on you, and you wont be able to run at full speed to get at the end of the crosses which results in so many Ronaldo goals. Ozil cant finish, Benz doesnt have the positional sense to get at the end of the crosses, Higuain continuously fails to score when it matters, Di Maria has the decision making of a toddler, so Ronaldo is the only player who has all the attributes so he has to be leading the counters and get at the end of it. Ronaldo is that essential part in Real's counters, and if he is consistently tracking back then you will lose his effectiveness and end up with Di Maria gifting the ball to opposition or Benz not having the right options to pass to. Ronaldo always create that space to pass to in counters, therefore dont fix something that isnt broken. Madrid has 100 things wrong about them, Ronaldo's performance is one of the small positive you guys have.

When I play as a winger, I always track back but that always means that when there is a counter, I am half burned and just not as effective. But in Real's case, I dont think Ronaldo should track back that much (apart from certain situations where you obviously have to) but Alonso and Khedira and Ozil should cover. This leaves only Ronaldo and Higuain/Benz upfront for the counters. But Real's midfielders (Khedira and Alonso) are so incapable of winning any balls without committing a foul that causes the problem and leaves ur LB at 2v1 position. I do agree that no fullback should be left at 2v1, and those are the times when any wingers or other midfielders should be helping out.

Marcelo the victim, Ronaldo the scapegoat, but I am hoping your board doesnt realize the rotten core you have of Alonso, Pepe, Khedira and Arbeola. I hope to see them all starting for Madrid next season, and Ronaldo to be sold. I have a dream.

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Post by Onyx on Sun May 26, 2013 11:37 pm

Hopefully we aren't just a counter-attacking team next season.

Messi doesn't need to track back since he's a CF, not a winger.

Tracking backing isn't optional. It's part of the defensive phase in order to stay compact when defending.
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Post by FennecFox7 on Mon May 27, 2013 3:34 am

Yeah and?

Why aren't we blaming alonso for this shit? CR is one of the best players in the world. He isn't essien. Tracking back has its pros and cons but ronaldo tracking back is retarded. For one he won't be at full speed on the counter. There are countless other reasons why but I shouldn't have to explain all of them.

I am sick and fu.cking tired of us blaming CR for all our problems. Look at the big picture, our problems sure as hell don't stem from him. A midfield revamp is needed, not this excuse of a thread :facepalm:

The problem, and it always has been, is our damn midfield. Are you guys blind or choose to scapegoat ronaldo? because it has nothing to do with him

Just incredible.
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Post by sportsczy on Mon May 27, 2013 11:12 am

The issue you're mentioning with the positioning of others Stevie is due to the fact that CR7 roams from left to right to CF and has absolute liberty to do whatever he wants. So our CFs can't really play like CFs... they first have to read what CR7 is doing and then react. It makes them seem reactive because that's what they're supposed to be.

It's the same problem that Ibra, Villa and Sanchez had with playing with Messi... they are not playing free but as a complimentary player.

When your entire career you have been trained to be a focus, you can't adjust to be a complimentary one. it doesn't work that way. In fact, Benz has adjusted some; but it's messed him up. He's not quite sure what he is anymore lol... reason i want him sold. PLaying in Madrid with CR7 is ruining him.

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Post by Doc on Mon May 27, 2013 5:58 pm

Benzema may not be the "main focus" in the clubs that can afford him. Anyway, tracking back is good when it actually has tactical sense involved. Headless tracking back turns out like Di Maria.

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Post by sportsczy on Mon May 27, 2013 6:37 pm

a focus... not the main focus. For example, Goetze and Lewandowski are focuses of Dortmund. Ribery, Robben and Mueller are focuses of Bayern. Vucinic, Vidal and Pirlo are focuses of Juve... basically, Benz needs a club that focuses on teamwork rather than individualism imo.

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Post by Onyx on Mon May 27, 2013 6:46 pm

I'm sure next season we'll be more of a team. If we get someone like Heynckes, then it's possible.
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Post by Le Samourai on Mon May 27, 2013 9:45 pm

@sportsczy wrote:a focus... not the main focus. For example, Goetze and Lewandowski are focuses of Dortmund. Ribery, Robben and Mueller are focuses of Bayern. Vucinic, Vidal and Pirlo are focuses of Juve... basically, Benz needs a club that focuses on teamwork rather than individualism imo.

Which is coincidentally, what I'd like us to do.

Ideally, for me at least, you run the attack through him and Ozil . Both, almost instinctively make perfect decisions with the ball - and have the talent to adjust to stations in which they are cramped for space.

Benz in particular I see no middle ground for - it's either use him or sell him - not simply because I like him - but also because he doesn't seem to be able to conceptualize a middle ground or able to effectively adjust. So someone who is operative and dynamic off the ball would drastically improve us, as whatever we lose w/ Benz is negligible since we don't use him properly anyway.

Finally, I don't think anyone has ever blamed Ronaldo for the all our problems, other problems have been discussed thoroughly. I think among our problems though, this one is particularly salient, because its very very fixable and all parties - having demonstrated effort to change over the last couple years - should be tractable enough to buy in.

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Post by Zealous on Mon May 27, 2013 10:02 pm

Here's the problem with running our attack through Ozil and Benzema, they always have spells where they play well below their peaks. They aren't consistent enough to justify running a system through them yet.

Ronaldo has shown that he can bare the burden because his contributions are as consistent as the sun rise at this point.

Anyway I think every player on our squad is going to be willing to make sacrifices for success. Losing three semi finals is not fun for us as fans, I can only imagine how it feels to someone who actually played through that.

Make no mistake this team will be hungrier than ever next year.
Spoiler:
That last sentence wasn't a Benzema fat joke btw

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Post by Le Samourai on Mon May 27, 2013 11:18 pm

I see this as a solution to that problem...more or less.

I think that the tendency to conceptualize building an attack around other players as taking it away from Ronaldo is wrong. It's tweaking the internal process to be more conducive to the strengths of our all our attackers (including Ronaldo).

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Post by Zealous on Mon May 27, 2013 11:34 pm

@Le Samourai wrote:I see this as a solution to that problem...more or less.

I think that the tendency to conceptualize building an attack around other players as taking it away from Ronaldo is wrong. It's tweaking the internal process to be more conducive to the strengths of our all our attackers (including Ronaldo).

Yeah I agree with that for sure.

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Post by FennecFox7 on Tue May 28, 2013 3:36 am

@Le Samourai wrote:I see this as a solution to that problem...more or less.

I think that the tendency to conceptualize building an attack around other players as taking it away from Ronaldo is wrong. It's tweaking the internal process to be more conducive to the strengths of our all our attackers (including Ronaldo).

I can agree with this.

Basically what I've been trying to say..
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Post by Onyx on Tue May 28, 2013 12:55 pm

Yeh but if Ronaldo doesn't defend, then there will be gap in the LB area.

Having 2 banks of 4 when defending is a basic concept.

Robben didn't really track back before I guess and now he's working his socks off and Bayern are now succeeding. It's not the only reason, but yeh..

Wingers simply have to track back to form 2 banks of 4 and to protect the fullback.

Under the next manager I don't think there will be a big emphasis on counter-attacking, so it may be possible for Ronaldo to be more consistent when tracking back.
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