Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by El Jefe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:52 pm

@Art Morte wrote:Yet most of them came from financially weak clubs or were out of favour at their clubs. Gimme some names of CMs you think we could get in January?
Schneiderlin, M'Vila, Gonalons, Fernando Reges, Yacob, Neustader.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by vegfootball on Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:47 pm

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:I think a CAM is also what will solve the problem of CM, probably not completely but I believe a good CAM will get into those small pockets, receive the pass from Gerrard and help Gerrard and Lucas to share the pressure.
Are you talking about creative attacking central midfield player who also track back the defensive player as well ?

Think till January it's got to be Lucas & Gerrard rotating them partner them Henderson & Allen again rotating between them to play with the other two

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Art Morte on Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:31 pm

Can't say I'm awfully impressed by any of the realistic January CM targets that have been thrown around.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by El Jefe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:45 pm

All better than Lucas though
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Helmer on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:21 pm

what about pastore at PSG? he can be a fantastic player for us hmm

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by RedOranje on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:36 am

Ah Strootman and Bradley... what could have been.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Don't call me James on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:09 am

Maybe we could throw in Borini and some cash for one of those Roma midfielders (Pjanic, Strootman, Bradley). Not that they'd want to leave a Roma side that could challenge for the scudetto.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by RedOranje on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:03 pm

Strootman just joined and is doing very well. They'll not be interested in letting him leave any time soon.

Bradley also seems to be firmly in their plans, and while he's often played as a CDM I think his best role is ultimately similar to Henderson's (seemingly best) all-action CM role.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Red Alert on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:45 am

@RedOranje wrote:Ah Strootman and Bradley... what could have been.
As good as Strootman is, Eriksen was the one we missed out on in the summer.

Don't think Bradley was even up for sale so no point discussing him.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by RedOranje on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:40 pm

something-red wrote:
@RedOranje wrote:Ah Strootman and Bradley... what could have been.
As good as Strootman is, Eriksen was the one we missed out on in the summer.

Don't think Bradley was even up for sale so no point discussing him.
Depends on who you ask... many here seem to believe that CM/CDM is the issue, not CAM. In that case Strootman would certainly be a more reasonable option.

Neither are available, Roma have made that clear... but Bradley moved in the same summer we signed Allen and Sahin (for <£3m as well) and Strootman moved just this past window as I'm sure you know.  In both cases there were concerns over midfield that either/both would have addressed and both are versatile enough to offer solid cover for the other midfield positions in a pinch (Bradley, though a CM, is a very good CDM and Strootman can play well as CM, CAM or even a CDM at Allen's level).  Both have the stamina, energy, and intelligence to add what we are lacking at times currently and Bradley in particular is the type of player who would raise his game in second halves when/if teammates were slowing.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Red Alert on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:38 am

I'm one of the few that see the CAM as the problem.

A two man ALWAYS struggles in the premier league so I don't see why Lucas and Gerrard are getting all the blame.

Our "CAM" all season has pretty much been playing in the final third offering no link up play from the midfield to attack or have they been creating or even being a goal scoring threat. They don't even offer support to the midfield when we're not in possession. All our "clear cut" chances in the final third this season from the top of my head have came of the back of Sturridge or Suarez.

I was also strictly talking about the summer that just passed and that's why I didn't mention Bradley.

Strootman is obviously quality and probably would have improved a set position, but Eriksen is still the missing link in our team as of now in my eyes.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by RedOranje on Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:34 pm

Why talk about last summer when it's just as much in the past as the one before? Both windows have passed and closed, and we've got as much chance of signing Eriksen as we do of getting Strootman or Bradley... perhaps even less. It's all behind us at this point.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Helmer on Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:43 pm

I am all up for signing a AM, but that will be only a partial solution to the problem. Hence coining names like Pastore, Honda. I think Honda can even play as CM, in case we need to play him in Gerrard's position

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Art Morte on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:12 pm

CM is the problem, we are good when we get up attacking, but we struggle to control the game.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Helmer on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:26 pm

As we saw in palace game when alberto came on the pitch, we were better in the midfield area. The problem escalates when we are out of possession, hence a new CM will be a complete solution.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Red Alert on Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:37 am

@RedOranje wrote:Why talk about last summer when it's just as much in the past as the one before?  Both windows have passed and closed, and we've got as much chance of signing Eriksen as we do of getting Strootman or Bradley... perhaps even less.  It's all behind us at this point.
When you look at it that way, then yes. I was more looking at why we didn't get a midfield link up forward player that Rodgers obviously wanted in Mkhitaryan and we obviously lack in the squad right now. Coutinho is not that type of player yet. Henderson can't seem to get a chance in that role. Luis Alberto can't either. This summer just passed and both Strootman and Eriksen were available, I don't think Bradley was so that's why I left him out. Anyway, I'm not saying let's go out and buy Eriksen/Strootman/Bradley as we have little no chance of signing them now. I'm just confused why we didn't do anything when we obviously lacked that creative/goal scoring type of player that would support both the midfield and attack.

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:As we saw in palace game when alberto came on the pitch, we were better in the midfield area. The problem escalates when we are out of possession, hence a new CM will be a complete solution.
Luis Alberto replaced Moses and played in the CAM role when he came on, he didn't play as a CM. Henderson and Gerrard played the full 90 minutes in the centre. Alberto played just above them, and behind Sturridge and Suarez.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Helmer on Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:00 pm

ynwa, Laughing off course i know that, I am just saying that when he came on as CAM, he helped Gerrard and Hendo to link better from midfield to forward. So we looked better in the middle of the pitch and had more control of the game.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by El Jefe on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:16 pm

I don't think the link between the midfield 2 and the #10 would be as much of a problem if they were closer to each other. You're saying the #10 needs to be deeper to provide a link, and that might be true, but the 2 in midfield should also be 10 yards higher up. At the moment we can't, I don't think Lucas is a good enough DM to play in a team pressing high up the pitch. He suits playing deeper because there's less space in behind him, which means he can get away with abandoning his position a bit more.

We got linked with Nemanja Matic yesterday, I think he'd cost way too much, but a DM of that standard who doesn't need to be on the toes of our CBs would allow the team to push an extra 10 yards up the pitch. Not only would that make the space between the midfield and the #10 a lot smaller, therefore improving our attacking play and ability to keep possession, it would also help our defence.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by donttreadonred on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:42 pm

Nemanja Matic is a very interesting shout... I too think he would be far too expensive, especially as Chelsea were rumored to be batting aroudn the idea of bringing him back in the last transfer window.

Two more realistic options are Blaise Matuidi (PSG) and Fernando Reges (Porto). If I'm not mistaken, both are out of contract in the summer, and could be picked up for (relatively) cheap in January should they fail to resign.

As for the system, the insinuation that a 2-man midfield always gets overrun is an absolute fallacy. Take a look at midfields like Arsenal, Southampton, Man City, Tottenham, etc.
Arsenal: Ramsey/Wilshere (Ozil never drops in...)
Southampton: Schneiderlin/Wanyama
Man City: Toure/Fernandinho
Tottenham: Dembele(Capoue)/Paulinho

All of those midfields predominantly play in a midfield pairing either behind 2 strikers or a striker and an advanced midfielder, and all of those midfields are more physically dynamic, better in the tackle, and generally more controlling than Lucas and Gerrard. Gerrard's vision and distribution is one of the only advantages our midfield pairing has over any of them.

I really hate to criticize Lucas, as I love his attitude, desire, and dedication, but that does not make up for his poor performances in the last 6 months. I really wanted to see the Lucas of pre-cruciate surgery, when he was sitting behind two midfielders, mopping up anything that came into our half. The sad fact is that he's not returned exactly the same, nor has he adapted to suit his reduced dynamism. I'm honestly not sure he will ever be that same player.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by RedOranje on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:29 pm

Matuidi IS at PSG though... they'll either offer him a big contract to keep him around or let him go for free in the summer probably. They're certainly not worried about missing out on a transfer fee for him given their finances.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by donttreadonred on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:49 pm

@RedOranje wrote:Matuidi IS at PSG though... they'll either offer him a big contract to keep him around or let him go for free in the summer probably.  They're certainly not worried about missing out on a transfer fee for him given their finances.
They certainly aren't as concerned about recouping transfer fees as most clubs. However, that doesn't mean they won't make sound business decisions. We've seen that they are willing to sell quality players that for some reason don't feature in their plans or want to leave for professional reasons. Just because they have money does not mean that they are unreasonable.

With that said, I don't know for sure that Matuidi does not feature in their plans or that he wants out. However, his contract situation would normally suggest that he is not a priority for the club, or that the club is not willing to make assurances about playing time, meet his financial demands, or otherwise come to an agreement about some aspect of his contract. I'm not saying that he's nailed on to come to us, or even leave Paris. I'm merely saying that should the current situation persist, an opportunity could present itself.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Red Alert on Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:04 am

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:ynwa, :lol:off course i know that, I am just saying that when he came on as CAM, he helped Gerrard and Hendo to link better from midfield to forward. So we looked better in the middle of the pitch and had more control of the game.
That's what I've been saying all year.

The only reason the midfield duo is so poor is because we only play with 2 midfielders this year. It's the "CAM" that's the problem. We've played Moses and Aspas there ffs. Coutinho is not ready. Henderson isn't playing the role... I'm repeating myself and I'm annoying myself, but that's the problem. It's not the duo.

Playing with 2 midfielders is pretty much playing an open free flowing tempo type of game for both sides. It's basically a "I'll score one more than you" approach. It's the reason for United's success in the past, but we are not United. We don't have that winning mentality yet. We've looked nervous under pressure for a while now.

And every time we've played with a 2 man midfield, we've struggled to control the game which is what Rodgers is all about. Look at Roy's tenure here, Dalglish in his second stint as manager, and majority of the games this season. Our team isn't suited to play a 2 man midfield. Kudos for us getting the results as of right now and being up there, but it's highly unlikely we're going to be this consistent for the whole season.

@El Jefe wrote:I don't think the link between the midfield 2 and the #10 would be as much of a problem if they were closer to each other. You're saying the #10 needs to be deeper to provide a link, and that might be true, but the 2 in midfield should also be 10 yards higher up. At the moment we can't, I don't think Lucas is a good enough DM to play in a team pressing high up the pitch. He suits playing deeper because there's less space in behind him, which means he can get away with abandoning his position a bit more.
The midfield is playing deeper because of Rodgers, not because the midfield duo is poor. We don't even press high anymore. The amount of times we've played with 9 men behind the ball and let the opposition enjoy possession shows that. Each player defends a "zone".

We're a counter attacking side with no number 10 right now. That's why our midfield in general looks horrible.

@RedOranje wrote:Matuidi IS at PSG though... they'll either offer him a big contract to keep him around or let him go for free in the summer probably. They're certainly not worried about missing out on a transfer fee for him given their finances.
Sakho didn't put it in a transfer request and was sold. At the end of the day, EVERY club cares about finances regardless if their Madrid, PSG or West Ham. If he wants to leave, they'll sell him. We're not a threat to PSG. We're on good terms with them.

@donttreadonred wrote:

As for the system, the insinuation that a 2-man midfield always gets overrun is an absolute fallacy. Take a look at midfields like Arsenal, Southampton, Man City, Tottenham, etc.
Arsenal: Ramsey/Wilshere (Ozil never drops in...)
Southampton: Schneiderlin/Wanyama
Man City: Toure/Fernandinho
Tottenham: Dembele(Capoue)/Paulinho

All of those midfields predominantly play in a midfield pairing either behind 2 strikers or a striker and an advanced midfielder, and all of those midfields are more physically dynamic, better in the tackle, and generally more controlling than Lucas and Gerrard. Gerrard's vision and distribution is one of the only advantages our midfield pairing has over any of them.
Arsenal and Spurs all play with a number 10.......... an advanced midfielder is still part of the "midfield". So those teams do play with 3 men in the centre of the pitch to help dominate play. Southampton play some sort of 4222 but they defend pretty much with 9 men behind the ball too which helps Wanyama and Schei. Keep in mind Wanyama and Schnei are defensive midfielders, we don't play with defensive midfielders. Rodgers has never played with a DM. The only reason we're a lot better (results and performance wise; when we play with a 3 man midfield anyway) when Lucas plays is because he gives us the balance. Man City's midfield has been horrible this year. The amount of times teams have run through them is embarrassing. It's probably one of the reasons they've been so poor this year so not quire sure why you've suggested them???
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by El Jefe on Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:02 pm

Rodgers has never played with a DM? Lucas is the DM.

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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Red Alert on Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:31 pm

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. Rodgers system does not involve a DM in it.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by ExtremistEnigma on Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:55 am

Yes, there is. And Lucas IS the DM. How many times have you seen him in the final third, creating for our forwards? He stays in our half and shields the back four most of the time.
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Re: Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Post by Red Alert on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:58 am

Was Britton a DM when Rodgers was at Swansea? That's essentially Lucas' role now. Rodgers calls them "controllers"; they're not defensive midfielders. Their job on the ball is to dictate the tempo, and recycle possession around. Off the ball, ALL midfielders are supposed to help win the ball, it's not solely down to Lucas.
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