Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Don't call me James on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:10 pm

I'm not a proponent of anything that makes us lack width. Having width is essential in PL and even in Europe. 3-4-1-2 (the current system) provides great balance to the wings and defense but the 4-3-1-2 is essentially a glorified 4-4-2 diamond which would require the CMs or one of the forwards to provide most of the attacking width and it weakens the defense.

Essentially having Allen play that DM role in a Rodgers system would require him to drop between the two CBs (if we play with only 2) and collect the ball and we saw last season that he's really not good at that. Having 3 at the back (especially someone like Agger in the middle of the 3) takes away the need for a out and out DM. The center CB can play either a la Skrtel and act as a sweeper deeper than the other two or to step up and dribble the ball out of the defense like Agger can do.

What this current system has done is that it has made Lucas' role less significant in the team. Last season losing Lucas would've destroyed our season but now the two pivot midfielders don't really need to be out and out DMs or have great defensive qualities. What it does require however is great mobility, which is why Hendo is having a great time there and Stevie and Lucas are looking less impressive.

Now, also, this current system requires the CMs to provide more of an attacking influence to the team since essentially we've taken a player from the top and added an extra CB. So the two CM's need to be able to score some goals, which is again detrimental to Lucas' role. We need a box to box mobile hard working CM that can score goals and provide a greater attacking influence in January. I vote Matic, Pjanic or Rakitic but all 3 will be pretty hard to get.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Helmer on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:32 pm

You mean that we will be weak defensively on the wings hmm, but I think we will get much more solidity in the midfield. We wont get easily overrun in the midfield. Off course we will get width from full backs here also. I am not sure whether we need a through n through defensive midfielder, I think Allen with Hendo should be good enough defensively also.

Btw I dont like that 4-4-2 diamond stuff, the team with that formation most of the time seem to be very boring to watch. I dont want that 4-3-1-2 to become 4-4-2, I have watched Milan few times and they certainly dont look like a 4-4-2. I may be wrong because i dont watch Milan so often.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Don't call me James on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:46 pm

No I mean we would be weak defensively as a whole. 4 man defense requires prime Lucas or someone of those qualities in that DM position. Having Allen play that role is even a worse idea as proven last season when Lucas was injured. We currently do not have that, and there aren't too many players in the market that would be an upgrade in that position that don't already play for top teams.

Second we do NOT have the fullbacks for a 4 man defense. We've all seen time and again that Johnson and Enrique are problematic in either defense or attack when it comes to playing that system. Sure it's good for the 7th best defensive solidity in the league but not good enough for consistent top 4 challenge. And then of course with that 4-3-1-2 formation there are absolutely zero help from wings for fullbacks defensively. Especially in PL where almost every team uses the flanks to build their attacks being vulnerable there is not something we want.

Look at the formation you drew up Heil, it looks exactly like a 4-4-2 diamond, even though I get that you mean the two CM's ahead of the DM are RCM/LCM and not RM/LM.

that's what you drew up
----- X -----
X--X --- X --X
------A-----
--H ----- G --
------C -----
-- X --- X --

This is how a 4-4-2 diamond looks like
----- X -----
X--X --- X --X
------A-----
-H -------- G-
------C -----
-- X --- X --

Very similar except Henderson and Gerrard are narrower in your formation, which if deployed in real life they would actually have to work much harder than they would in the current formation.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Helmer on Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:45 am


:bow: I think he must start against newcastle we should see how he does there again, lucas shouldnt come straight away in starting XI

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Helmer on Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:55 am

found little more about it here:
http://eplindex.com/41802/player-performance-analysis-jordan-henderson-crystal-palace.html

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by RedOranje on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:34 am

Posting something like that on the official site would seem to be a suggestion that Henderson has impressed the manager and club with his performance. Only time will tell though.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Art Morte on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:45 am

I'm with McAgger, I believe in width, other than just full-backs, too.

I'd like to see a 4-4-2 where the left winger (Coutinho or Moses) moves to CAM when needed. But not that he stays there the whole time.
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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Helmer on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:45 am

@Art Morte wrote:I'm with McAgger, I believe in width, other than just full-backs, too.

I'd like to see a 4-4-2 where the left winger (Coutinho or Moses) moves to CAM when needed. But not that he stays there the whole time.
I thought the defensive shape would be like 4-4-2 but when we attack as you say coutinho can keep on moving to the central position. Just an another way so as not to sacrifice the midfield but at the same time we can play suarez and sturridge up front with 4-3-1-2 formation.

3-4-1-2 will be really tested when we play it consistently and still manage to get 3 points, it will be intereseting to see how we play against top sides with 3CB.
ManUtd should not be counted because it was the first time we had played with that formation so the team was still learning movement, positions and responsibilites. The first test will be against WBA and then Arsenal, but lets see if we continue with 3-4-1-2

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Helmer on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:03 pm

@RedOranje wrote:Posting something like that on the official site would seem to be a suggestion that Henderson has impressed the manager and club with his performance.  Only time will tell though.
EPLIndex wrote:Henderson, who was in the thick of everything that occurred on the field, received the ball from his team-mates 60 times and completed 92% (69/75) of his passes, with 11/12 moving forwards into the attacking third whilst obtaining a 100% (19/19) success rate in the defensive areas.
I think we will get to know more when we play against high pressing teams, if he can perform at the highest level as CM along with Gerrard. Also I think he was always asked to keep things simple in his first game but he still did a great job. He was quick to get the ball out of his feet. In that video I can see only 1 misplaced pass.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Red Alert on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:49 am

@El Jefe wrote:A 2 man midfield with Coutinho in front could easily work if you have the right players. Henderson did really well, along with Sakho he was probably our best player. Does just as much as Lucas defensively, if not more, brings a lot more energy and mobility and is better going forward. I think we should continue with Gerrard and Henderson in the middle, Lucas shouldn't walk straight back into a team when he's been playing badly for nearly a year. Henderson got an opportunity and did very well, deserves to keep his place.
Oh please. Henderson did well, but he was no better than Lucas. The midfield didn't really dominate until Luis Alberto came on anyway. You continuously go on about a DM role (which we don't play) and then say Henderson did good after that? lol can't buy it. Lucas has been doing the same thing all season. If Lucas had played the exact same game as Henderson against Palace, you'd be attacking the "holes" the opposition exploited on the counter attack and being out of position and not tackling blah blah and missed interceptions and whatever you continue go on about to attack Leiva.
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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Art Morte on Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:40 am

Henderson is our most important CM at the moment, imo. He should be the first midfielder on the team sheet, and play centrally, and then see where Gerrard and Lucas fit in - if both do, maybe they don't. The worst thing is when players get into the team on old merit and what name it reads on the back of their shirt. It's current form that matters and that's been Henderson >>> Gerrard or Lucas this season.
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Re: Liverpool vs. Crystal Palace

Post by Helmer on Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:06 pm

The most important thing which Lucas has over Hendo is his incisive passing and his experience in that defensive position.
Lucas had that agility and more awareness in that position when he was in top form but it seems he has not still recaptured it. I think from the other thread we understand that Lucas alone is not a problem. It is the pair of Lucas and Gerrard, that is the problem for us. I think Hendo should be continued with Gerrard as a pair instead Gerrard and lucas.
We must let Hendo grow on that position, not only to provide competition for that place but we really need the engine there.

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