Winter Window || Jan 2014

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Don't call me James on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:13 am

I didn't mean Rodgers is a f*ckin scout. For a lack of a better term I used 'scouting side' but what I meant was that he's on the side of the committee that basically identifies the player and then gives the list of names to the negotiators and what not.

That side of the committee have done remarkably well. They have identified Mkh, Costa, Willian, Salah, and Konoplyanka as primary targets for the first team, none of whom the other side has been able to wrap up. At least Mkh, Costa and William who were linked with in the summer have shown that they are very good players since the summer and that our interest was well placed. (because in the summer no one really knew how good Costa would become this season or know much about how good Mkh was).

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Don't call me James on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:15 am

@Red Alert wrote:
And the scouting job didn't do their jobs to perfection.

They spent 20m alone in the summer for 3 players that don't play. Again, they've only got ONE window right, and that was LAST January where we acquired Coutinho and Sturridge. And we only got Sturridge because he also became "available" (came out and said he wanted to leave Chelsea) and Rodgers chose him because he's worked with him in the past.

The scouting side doesn't negotiate. That's the f*cking side that I'm saying is to blame lol. They are the ones who spent that type of money on those players. Also I'm primarily talking about main targets not those scrubs we signed for depth.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Red Alert on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:27 am

Yes, but they are still responsible for identifying these "squad" players, that aren't even good enough to get into a team that's depleted with injuries ffs.

He's not apart of the scouting side either.

The committee's broken up to 4 parts, well 3 parts really.

1) Rodgers, identifying problems within the squad and tells the scouting side what to look for
2) The scouting side, identify players that Rodgers wants, and looks for players in the future
3) Ayre and his negotiations
[4) FSG to provide the cash which to their credit, they have]

-Willian is average. Honestly. He's only in the Chelsea team for his work rate. He's no better than Sterling ffs and he's enterring his "prime" years. 30m would of been wasted.
-Mkhitaryan would of been brilliant. I'll give them credit there.
-Why exactly did we need Diego Costa if we have a superior player in Suarez and then Sturridge to compliment Luis? Signing Costa would of been stupid even if he is a brilliant player. This isn't fifa or FM. I'll give them credit, because he's actually a decent player (by decent I mean very very good btw Razz) but he's not what we needed.
-Salah, who knows about him honestly. A lot of potential, but that's all he is right now. I doubt anyones seen him enough to say that he'll guaranteed to be world class, but he does look promising. Still a question mark.  
-Kono, well I have no idea who he is so it's too early to comment so again, still a question mark.

Why not mention they chose Luis Alberto over Eriksen?
Or the fact they identified Costa (CF) as a BACK UP TARGET TO MKHITARYAN (CAM). Or the fact that they thought Luis Alberto was a better fit than Shelvey?

This scouting side might be good at finding quality players, but this whole committee AS A WHOLE isn't working. There's no point identifying a CF in Costa, if it's clear the biggest problems were in midfield.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Don't call me James on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:33 am

Damn it I'm done here since there is nothing more to discuss as I have pretty much said everything and now we are going in circles, but like I said, I'm not saying Rodgers is a f*ckin scout, forget I even used that term, I'm saying he's in the side of the committee that identifies the player (position, style, techinque, etc).

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Red Alert on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:38 am

Yes, exactly.

So how is he not to be blamed and he's all innocent himself if he "identifies the player (position, style, techinque, etc)" are we're sitting there looking for a winger when it's clear we needed people in central midfield.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Don't call me James on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:44 am

@Red Alert wrote:Yes, exactly.

So how is he not to be blamed and he's all innocent himself if he "identifies the player (position, style, techinque, etc)" are we're sitting there looking for a winger when it's clear we needed people in central midfield.

I responded to this in the general section.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Art Morte on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:36 am

How I would proportionate blame:

FSG
Apparently a bit too tight with the money. Not in the Konoplyanka deal, but perhaps in the Salah deal and generally speaking we've been after too many "hopeful bargains" in previous windows.

Ayre
Can't blame him for the failed Kono deal if the owner just decided to be an a***hole. Although I don't get it how it was possible for the negotiations to get so very far if the owner was never going to sell. So you've got to consider the possibility that Ayre / LFC did something, e.g. tried to bargain too much, that upset Dnipro's owner. Missing out on Salah is much more on Ayre, didn't his agent say negotiations with us took 2.5 months? For Chelsea they seemed to take 2.5 days and the £11m price tag shouldn't exactly be a stumbling block.

Rodgers & The Infamous Committee
Not buying anyone in this window. Or loaning. So, Rodgers has said to the club and the committee "I'd like a left-winger" and together they've identified at least Salah and Kono. Okay, that's very fine, job done there, they're not the once who negotiate the deals. But Rodgers & the Committee needed to do more, needed to identify a stop-gap solution, because our squad is pretty much down to its bare bones. The market looked like pretty much any club that fancied a loan signing for the rest of the season were able to get a satisfactory player in. Not just in England, elsewhere in Europe, too. Why we didn't do that when clearly in need, that is baffling, that is Rodgers' and the Committee's failure.


And I have to say I echo Red Alert's worry about our transfers in the past few windows. Coutinho, Sturridge, Sakho, Mignolet, good deals.

Negatives: £21m blown on Aspas, Alberto and Ilori in one window. One gamble like that would have been very understandable, "let's see if this is Coutinho Mk II", but three in one window, no. £15m for Allen, could have done much better with that fee. Borini and Assaidi signed in the same 2012 summer window, both been sent out on loan and it's arguably Assaidi of these three who is having the best season. And Rodgers clearly doesn't think he is good enough since we're trying to sign an LW. And then there's obviously this window where we did f*** all to aid our top-4 push.

Not great.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by mr-r34 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:59 pm

You guys will all see what a great window this was when we make 4th spot, why waste money on benches, when we can save it for marquees when we have CL to offer. Faith in the boys, screw sala and the kono guy, we didnt need them so why waste money on them.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Art Morte on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:09 pm

@mr-r34 wrote:You guys will all see what a great window this was when we make 4th spot, why waste money on benches, when we can save it for marquees when we have CL to offer. Faith in the boys, screw sala and the kono guy, we didnt need them so why waste money on them.

I'm not upset we didn't get Salah or Kono and indeed it's always possible that we even dodged a bullet in one or both cases. But I'm not cool with not signing anyone when having such a thin squad, depleted with injuries, at such a crucial time when we've got a real chance of returning to the Champions League.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Red Alert on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:42 pm

@mr-r34 wrote:You guys will all see what a great window this was when we make 4th spot, why waste money on benches, when we can save it for marquees when we have CL to offer. Faith in the boys, screw sala and the kono guy, we didnt need them so why waste money on them.

Like Art said, it has nothing to do with Salah / Kono.

This team is thin. We didn't need to buy anyone. We could of loaned people too. We're now at risk of missing out on CL. It can go either way. Another injury now and we're f*cked.

Keep in mind they messed up in the summer, and brought Moses on loan to cover that. What did they do in the next 6 months? Are you going to tell me it took them from September - December 2013 to just find 2 players? And then left it until the last days of the last window to try and bring them in?
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by donttreadonred on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:44 pm

Obviously, yesterday was severely disappointing. I personally don't see how a buyout clause can be triggered, a medical completed, and a contract agreed only for the final signature to be the stumbling block. It all sounds quite petty and vindictive from the Dnipro owner. I'm not joking when I say that this should be really be a legal issue. Not that it will help us sign the player, because that ship has obviously sailed at this point. However, this sort of Tom-foolery should not be allowed to take place.

With that said, I have my doubts as to the effect Konoplyanka's non-signing will have on the remainder of the season. I was very excited about him coming, as he looks to be quite a talent. however, I'm not sure a winger (regardless of quality) was ever going to ensure us of a top four finish. He could've given a more-polished option to Sterling in the attack, and allowed us to bring Sterling on as a sub. That would certainly have a positive effect, but is it more valuable at this stage than a quality, composed DM or an attack-minded fullback? I would certainly go back in for Konoplyanka in the summer (if we can stand to deal with the club/owner). With his contract expiring in 12 months (in the summer), you would normally hope for a better deal, but I wouldn't hold my breath with their tool of an owner.

What I’m most disappointed in was the message this sends. This is the club’s best chance to regain Champions League football since 2008-2009. It sends the wrong message to the supporters, the players (*cough* Suarez *cough*), and the management staff. Failing to strengthen with such opportunity can serve to demoralize everyone associated with the club. The one silver lining is that I do believe the need to strengthen has been exaggerated by injuries over the Christmas period. With everyone fit, I do believe the squad is good enough to achieve the top four. With the respite of no European football, we may yet be able to get fit and push on.

@Art Morte wrote:Negatives: £21m blown on Aspas, Alberto and Ilori in one window. One gamble like that would have been very understandable, "let's see if this is Coutinho Mk II", but three in one window, no. £15m for Allen, could have done much better with that fee. Borini and Assaidi signed in the same 2012 summer window, both been sent out on loan and it's arguably Assaidi of these three who is having the best season. And Rodgers clearly doesn't think he is good enough since we're trying to sign an LW. And then there's obviously this window where we did f*** all to aid our top-4 push.
Art: In regards to your point about Aspas, Alberto, and Ilori, I can't say that I agree. I don't think they were signed with the intent of bringing in a coutinho-esque, wonder-kid. Of the three, I think only one was brought in with immediate impact in mind. Aspas is really the only player that we could have truly expected anything from in this first 6 months. He was playing first-team football in La Liga and even earning a bit of a reputation for himself. That he's failed to make a real impact is disappointing, but it's hardly the worst business we could've done.

Alberto and Ilori are very different cases. To assert that we brought them in for immediate impact is simply short-sighted. There were several obstacles standing in the way of Alberto making an immediate impact:
- He was playing in the Segunda Division for Barcelona B. While I'm sure it's a quality competition (and Barcelona B is no ordinary reserve squad), it's very different in terms of pace and physicality to the English game.
- He was being played as a winger/false9. While his control, skill, and passing may be good enough to play these positions at the top level, his pace is not. Therefore, he was never going to play those positions for us. I believe part of his delay in getting real game time is due in part to a move deeper in the side. We saw this in preseason when he was gradually deployed deeper and deeper. Eventually, I think he will take up the more attacking CM position in a 1(DM)-2(CM) midfield, not dissimilar to what Henderson does right now.
- He may be 21, but he looks far from fully developed. In short, he's too skinny to hold up at the moment. I know that Sterling is small and holds his own, but Alberto isn't small in the same way. Sterling may be short, but he's strong. Alberto is ~6', but he has very little mass. From a quick look at their stats, Alberto has 5" (12 cm) on Sterling, but is only 2 lbs heavier.

Ilori was always a signing for the future, and Rodgers has said as much. The plan was always to bring him in, get him settled, and then look to get him playing regularly. At 20, he has all the physical attributes to be a very good CB, but he needs to get games and develop. With CB being about as high-risk a position as there is (as an outfield player), he was never likely to be thrown into the Liverpool side, even in cup competitions.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Red Alert on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:55 pm

Not that I'd mad about missing out on him, but let's get this straight.

The owner CANNOT say no if a buy out clause was activated.

It comes down to 2 things. Actually, 3 things.

A) There was no buy out clause what so ever. Liverpool agreed a deal, Dnipro failed to find a replacement and pulled out of the deal at the end.

or

B) Liverpool offered the "buy out clause" over a period of time and not straight up. This doesn't actually activate the clause.

or lastly,

C) This "buy out clause" is similiar to the La Liga and it only works for other teams in Ukraine.

If the offer was straight up, and the buy out clause WAS met, he'd be a Liverpool player right now. You don't need a signature from the owner if the contract is bought out. That's why I fail to believe that this whole buy out clause is the reason we failed, regardless if the BBC, Times, Liverpool.com come out and say it. Everybody, including the player, agent, Liverpool, would be taking this to FIFA if that was the case.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by stevieg8 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:40 pm

Or D), buy-out clauses are aspects of legal contracts and are open to interpretation. Too many LFC fans both here and on reddit are trying to be armchair-lawyers on this. "Either he had a buyout clause or he didn't, it's that simple, Ayre is so stupid to not be able to figure out how this works", etc. etc.

The fact is contracts are negotiated down to the very last detail specifically BECAUSE they are open to interpretation. If Kono's agent missed something in the wording, there's a possible opening for Dnipro to argue that the buy-out clause wasn't a full release for one reason or another. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with payment schedules or amount; it could simply be the way it was written left it open to interpretation in both directions.

When you toss in the complicating factors - the time frame (limited), the language the contract was written in (Ukrainian), the applicable governing law (Ukrainian), cost of litigation (high) - the best bet Ayre had was not to take legal action, but to attempt to convince Dnipro's representatives that they had no legal argument to stand on, which would leave them the clear choice between selling the player and facing a lawsuit.

That does NOT mean legal action should or even can be taken here, though. Not only are there all the factors influencing this decision I mentioned earlier, there's also Liverpool's reputation within the industry - both on a relationship level with Dnipro AND on a broader level with other teams. Do we want to engage in a costly, lengthy and public legal battle which we may not win - and therefore tell other teams that if they don't act the way we want them to, we'll bring them to court? People forget that there are relationships at play here; some people might be less interested in selling to others just because they don't like them. Look at Fulham a few summers ago - it didn't matter what money we were offering, they were upset at the way we conducted ourselves and turned down the bids anyway.

Anyway, this is all hypothetical. None of us have any idea what happened in that boardroom. I'm just sick of hearing people say "well it HAD to be one of the following options..."

It didn't. That's not how business works.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Red Alert on Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:41 am

I have not once criticized Ayre for this Kono deal. Not once.

The Dnipro owner refused to sell which means there was no definite buy out clause.

That's all I'm stating.

Maybe there was a misunderstanding, and we thought there was. But that doesn't mean there was and their owners a c*nt etc and it's his fault that this deal didn't go through.

Both the player AND the agent would be making this a big deal if he refused to sell when if there was a buy out clause. But they haven't. Again, we don't need a signature / permission from the owner if a buy out clause for his services were met.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by stevieg8 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:01 am

OK. I agree, there clearly wasn't a definite buy-out clause. There may have been one that seemed like a buy-out clause, but if there was something which was a clearly drafted buy-out clause, the deal would've gone through.

We're in agreement, sorry for the reaction.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by iftikhar on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:52 am

First, I'm not disappointment for our failure (whatever the underlying cause might have been) to sign Salah or Kono. They would have improved our squad and increased our chances to seal t4, but they were definitely not the missing pieces.

Many in this forum (mine included) and some sports writer as well have pointed out on numerous times the dire need to sign a R/LWB and a DM/defensive-minded CM. Yet, never during the window there were any rumor from credible sources regarding these positions.

If you consider how deep we were into the Salah and Kono deals and compare that with absolute no whiff regarding the R/LWB and a DM/defensive-minded CM, it raises question (to me at least) regarding the evaluation of the squad by the parties concerned.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Art Morte on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:59 am

By the way, will be very interesting to see whether Konoplyanka moves in the summer and if he does, where would that be and what would be the reason that he's allowed to join that club. Definitely one to follow.
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by BeautifulGame on Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:59 am

@Art Morte wrote:By the way, will be very interesting to see whether Konoplyanka moves in the summer and if he does, where would that be and what would be the reason that he's allowed to join that club. Definitely one to follow.

He will most likely move on as he will only have 12 months remaining in his contract . Most likely to us imo considering he was actually a summer target for us but we had to move in for him due to missing out on Salah.

Wont be surprised if we buy him up for 10-12 mil in the summer window like we did with Sturridge .

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Art Morte on Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:00 am

But since their owner refused to sell to us now, why would he do it in the summer?
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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Helmer on Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:01 am

@Art Morte wrote:But since their owner refused to sell to us now, why would he do it in the summer?
we are going to send Ayre's wife next time...fffs  bounce 

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by mr-r34 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:13 pm

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/457538/Liverpool-s-failure-to-capture-Yevhen-Konoplyanka-revealed

Take what you want from it.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Don't call me James on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:41 pm

f*ck it, there is no point dwelling on the past. 14 finals left to play in the league. Grab the 4th spot and then we'll see.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Helmer on Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:56 pm

may be this was the type of player which we will need in today's kind of situations. Anyways, we should close this threa probably.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Red Alert on Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:15 am

3 sides of every story.

Both teams are going to come out and try to "save face". We won't know the truth.

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

Post by Helmer on Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:06 pm

One of the guy posted this:
2 days before transfer deadline day Dnipro did have sanctions placed on them by the Ukraiian FA stating they couldn't buy any more players. This is more than likely the reason for them messing us around. It was on the Ukrainian FA website. MostarLFC on twitter posted a link to it on the 29th or 30th of Jan.
I check it myself and it is true :facepalm:
still can not get over with this mess up Mad   

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Re: Winter Window || Jan 2014

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