Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Curtinho on Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:58 pm

I don't think you understand what defensive qualities are if you think Milner and Henderson (more Henderson than Milner since Milner often plays higher up anyway) have zero defensive qualities, and then list pressing, hard work and grit. They're both great at eliminating space, taking away passing options, limiting time on the ball and in Henderson's case he gets back to defend in the box quite often (watch the Norwich game and see how the defence gets caught sleeping on runs into the box while Henderson is marking the guy with the ball very deep often enough).

Henderson and Can provide plenty of cover to our defence. Especially when you have a team that plays a high line and expects it's players to press hard. Henderson and Can often give the other team no space, and are constantly closing them down off the ball breaking up attacks and turning it around. The plus with Henderson is he is more experienced and doesn't get caught on the ball or give the ball away as much as Can does.

Watch the games against United, Arsenal, Leicester, Sunderland, etc. just to see examples of how much support Hendo and Can provide the defence. When we've been blown out the biggest culprits have been individual defensive/keeper errors and Lucas has been in really poor form.

But like you said Moreno is a shambles (though Lovren didn't get that defence from you last season, unsurprisingly) and Mignolet is Mignolet (5 more years yay). We need a better leftback, a better keeper and our CBs need to be more consistent (all of them). I don't see an issue with the cover and support from midfield atm outside of Lucas who has lost the plot lately.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Art Morte on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:49 am

Funny, I think Lucas is having a good season. The thing about Emre's defensive qualities is that he gets the worse the closer the ball gets to our penalty area. Because he switches off a lot. Naismith's goal was yet another perfect example of that. Emre should have tracked his run from midfield. Instead he just ball-watched. I was looking at Emre in the replay of the goal and there was a surprised reaction on his face. "Oh damn, where did he come from?" Emre offers little defensive cover, because he is caught day dreaming way too often in and around our box. Yeah, he presses and works well a little further up the field, but he's a complete liability when it comes to defending within 25 metres of the goal.
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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Curtinho on Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:11 am

I thought Lucas was having a great season for the first half or a bit less but the last month and a bit he seems to really have switched off, IMO.

I do agree that Can is still prone to lapses in judgment/concentration but I think that's an issue of experience and age more than his ability. He often does provide good defensive cover through the midfield and a bit deeper as well. Not with the consistency of Allen, Henderson and Lucas but still good enough. I still think our issues with leaky defence has more to do with the centrebacks, fullbacks and keeper than the midfield providing enough support.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by donttreadonred on Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:57 pm

@Adit wrote:Lovren has looked much better than Sakho under Klopp. Blaming everything on team mates is rather shifting blame.

I don't get this support from midfield argument. You plays 2 DMs one ball winner and one defensive winger yet complains about lack of midfield covering. Klopp must be doing something horribly wrong then.

This is a joke right? Lovren better than Sakho?

We don't play with 2 DMs. We typically play with Henderson and Can (both best as B2B CMs). Both are at their best winning the ball high up the field and harassing on the front-foot, not dropping deep, cutting-off passing lanes and shielding the defense.

One ball winner... Hmm... Lucas Leiva is many things, but a ball-winner in the sense of Mascherano, Matic, Victor Wanyama, etc., he is most definitely not. Perhaps there was a stint in 2011 when he looked like he could be one. However, injuries and time have taken their toll. What Lucas is is a converted CM, who lacks a yard or pace, and has a habit of fouling a player as soon as they beat him. He's got a decent tackle on him, but he's too often caught out of position and rendered unable to make a clean tackle due to his lack of recover pace.

Defensive winger... I think this is the same issue you have with Henderson and Can. Again, I would warn you not to confuse running with defensive aptitude. While Milner runs a lot and presses adequately, he's not a "defensive" winger. His tracking is rather abysmal, which should have been obvious from his ill-fated stint at CM under Rodgers.

So, the result is that there's really no one left to baby-sit the defense. I would remind you that this is a defense assembled by a manager that wouldn't know a defensive setup if it came up and bit him in the posterior. In fact, I'd say that this is the predominant issue. It's not that any of the players are necessarily awful on their own, it's more that they weren't assembled with a set defensive approach in mind. The purchase of Lovren, Sakho, Gomez, and Ilori, as well as the proliferation of Lucas and Skrtel in starting positions should show you this. Each have their strengths, but they don't complement each other well.

Of course, there's also the small matter of our keeper developing an awful habit of conceding to the first shot on target. Regardless of what the defense does, shots will almost certainly make it through. If we can't rely on the keeper for a save, then we're up a creak, regardless of the defensive lineup. However, that's a rant for another day/section.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Adit on Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:30 pm

@donttreadonred wrote:
@Adit wrote:Lovren has looked much better than Sakho under Klopp. Blaming everything on team mates is rather shifting blame.

I don't get this support from midfield argument. You plays 2 DMs one ball winner and one defensive winger yet complains about lack of midfield covering. Klopp must be doing something horribly wrong then.

This is a joke right? Lovren better than Sakho?

We don't play with 2 DMs. We typically play with Henderson and Can (both best as B2B CMs). Both are at their best winning the ball high up the field and harassing on the front-foot, not dropping deep, cutting-off passing lanes and shielding the defense.

One ball winner... Hmm... Lucas Leiva is many things, but a ball-winner in the sense of Mascherano, Matic, Victor Wanyama, etc., he is most definitely not. Perhaps there was a stint in 2011 when he looked like he could be one. However, injuries and time have taken their toll. What Lucas is is a converted CM, who lacks a yard or pace, and has a habit of fouling a player as soon as they beat him. He's got a decent tackle on him, but he's too often caught out of position and rendered unable to make a clean tackle due to his lack of recover pace.

Defensive winger... I think this is the same issue you have with Henderson and Can. Again, I would warn you not to confuse running with defensive aptitude. While Milner runs a lot and presses adequately, he's not a "defensive" winger. His tracking is rather abysmal, which should have been obvious from his ill-fated stint at CM under Rodgers.

So, the result is that there's really no one left to baby-sit the defense. I would remind you that this is a defense assembled by a manager that wouldn't know a defensive setup if it came up and bit him in the posterior. In fact, I'd say that this is the predominant issue. It's not that any of the players are necessarily awful on their own, it's more that they weren't assembled with a set defensive approach in mind. The purchase of Lovren, Sakho, Gomez, and Ilori, as well as the proliferation of Lucas and Skrtel in starting positions should show you this. Each have their strengths, but they don't complement each other well.

Of course, there's also the small matter of our keeper developing an awful habit of conceding to the first shot on target. Regardless of what the defense does, shots will almost certainly make it through. If we can't rely on the keeper for a save, then we're up a creak, regardless of the defensive lineup. However, that's a rant for another day/section.


You need to learn to read. Lovren has been the best defender under Klopp with out any doubt. You think sakho has been better?

Can- milner-lucas-henderson


Tell me one top team that plays with midfielders better defensively than that four?

If milner is defensively awful and not tracking back then no winger is good. Lucas is a DM. Saying can is a b2b is hilarious when he has no ability for that role and he is still relevant because of his defensive bite nothing more. Do you think Klopp plays him for his technical ability? Goal scoring? Ability to do anything in final third? He plays solely because of his engine and defensive work rate.. Box to box? Are you serious? Why is your definition of box to box include only winning the ball and harassing opponent? Isn't that actually a ball winner?

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by iftikhar on Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:44 pm

Joseph Barton wrote:“Mamadou Sakho is the most unorthodox, unbalanced effective defender on the planet,” he tweeted. “Watching him is similar to a clown spinning plates. You are just waiting for them to smash on the floor. Yet somehow he keeps it going. He's a genius.”
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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by donttreadonred on Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:15 am

@iftikhar wrote:
Joseph Barton wrote:“Mamadou Sakho is the most unorthodox, unbalanced effective defender on the planet,” he tweeted. “Watching him is similar to a clown spinning plates. You are just waiting for them to smash on the floor. Yet somehow he keeps it going. He's a genius.”
Laughing

Such a back-handed compliment, but a compliment none-the-less.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by mr-r34 on Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:08 pm

You *bleep* moron Mad :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Art Morte on Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:39 pm

A moron indeed. Luckily it's a personal investigation, the way I understood it was that there's not going to be any punishment for the club.

Toure's ban was six months, maybe it's going to be something like that.
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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Don't call me James on Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:43 pm

The club never gets punished for these doping scandals unless 2+ players have failed a drug test at the same time.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by RedOranje on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:05 am

Given the information currently available, it seems rather harsh to attack Sakho for this. Reports seem to agree (so far) that what he tested positive for was a type of "fat-burning" substance that he unknowingly consumed within a supplement. Supplements are not regulated in the UK (at least to the extent of the US) and therefore are not required to list ALL ingredients, meaningly that Sakho could quite easily have, as he claims, taken the supplement in good faith thinking it was fine. If this was the case, then any blame should most likely be aimed at the club for not being more thorough in checking such things and informing players of specific instances, because with over 100 banned substances and literally thousands if not tens of thousands of products that use said substances as ingredients, it's unreasonable to expect every player to be thorough in every instance.

http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/EuroExperience/uefaorg/Anti-doping/02/32/57/15/2325715_DOWNLOAD.pdf

http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Anti-doping/02/32/17/71/2321771_DOWNLOAD.pdf

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Don't call me James on Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:06 am

While what you say is true, ignorance won't save him from a ban with UEFA though. If he really gets a 6 months ban like the precedent set from Kolo's case then we might be short of CBs for the first few months of next season if we do in fact get rid of Skrtel, Caulker, and Toure.

Maybe Ilori will finally get a legitimate chance.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by RedOranje on Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:41 am

Well, you certainly aren't wrong there. UEFA are under no obligation to consider the circumstances, extenuating or not, and given precedence previously set they may in fact be under a certain pressure to NOT give outside factors any weight. Still though, I think if a ban comes about it should lay more on the club and odd nature of the situation in the UK than on Sakho.

Given Klopp's recent press conference, I'm fairly confident Kolo will be getting a new deal. My guess is it'll be a player/coach contract so he'll primarily help the youngsters develop but he'll still be available as 4th/5th choice in the depth charts.

I'm also reasonably certain Ilori will be leaving in the summer unless something major shifts. Without the ban, we're looking at Matip, Sakho, Lovren (whoda thunk it?), Kolo, and Gomez amongst the first team if departures happen as expected. If Sakho DOES face a ban, I'm not certain Klopp will look to Ilori rather than either an outside option or what we have listed there. Hate to say it, but I don't think Ilori is ever going to get a real chance to stake his claim at LFC, for better or worse.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Art Morte on Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:39 pm

I'm sure Sakho will get a ban, I'm just wondering how long until it starts? There's going to be a B sample and then their decision making, how ever long that's going to take? If we are choosing not to play him now, can this time go towards his ban? If he got banned for 6 months right now, he'd be back in late October, which wouldn't be too bad. But if it takes another month before the ban comes to effect that's already somewhat worse.
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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by mr-r34 on Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:20 pm

I think thats why they stood him down, so his bans starts from now.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by donttreadonred on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:10 pm

RedO seems to have already summed up my opinions on the actual incident in question. The topic of these supplements and the substances contained there-within is quite murky and inconsistent, especially so in the UK. In the US, there are often similar positive (and false-positive) tests for American athletes (American Football and Baseball especially) from these types of substances for very similar reasons: i.e. confusion surrounding the specifics contained within these "supplement cocktails". And, in the US, the ingredients are LISTED! Therefore, there's no reason to bludgeon this poor deceased equine any further.

As for how we'll cope without him, that's an interesting question... Our defense next season looks like it will be Matip, Sakho, Lovren, Kolo, Gomez, and maybe Ilori next season. Of those, I think Sakho is really the only CB I'd list as a TRUE first-choice CB.

Lovren has come on leaps and bounds since partnering Sakho under Klopp, but he's still the "follower" and is still often caught out of position. He's consistently performing far better than he did for the majority of his LFC career, but I think he could be quite easily improved upon.

Matip is actually quite similar to Lovren (as Lovren is performing at the moment). He's a solid defender, but he needs a good partner, and he's prone to the occasional positional mistake. As they're playing at the moment, I'd say they're both at that "very good backup" or "occasional starter" level for me. However, without a strong leader to partner them, I can't say I'd want to rely on either long term.

I have no problem with keeping Toure on as a player/coach, leaving him available as an emergency squad player should we need him. However, if we end up relying upon him in any competitive fashion next season, we've utterly failed in the market.

Gomez is an interesting prospect, as we haven't seen how Klopp will use him. Without any real evidence specifically pertaining to Gomez, I'm inclined to look at how Klopp has used players at similar points in their career, specifically Ibe and Origi. Both were used sparingly and in specific situations, especially early in Klopp's tenure. Coming into the squad mainly in Europe and the cups initially, both players were given looks, but more often found themselves as options off the bench. I foresee a similar role for Gomez next season. I think he'll see plenty of use in the cups (at CB), but will appear sparingly in the PL.

Now, Ilori... Well, it's a little hard to say where his future lies. On the one hand, Klopp has praised the young defender for solid performances following his return from his loan spell. On the other hand, he's basically disappeared following those solid performances. I do wonder if Ilori isn't in a similar situation as Origi when Klopp first came into the club: raw, having potential, but undersized for the role Klopp wants. If you remember, Klopp basically hid Origi away from the world while putting him on a strength-building regime.Part of me wonders if he's not doing something similar with Ilori.

As you may have gathered from the above assessment, I've not listed a good replacement for Sakho in the lineup. In other words, I'm not convinced that we're done looking at CBs. I'm not sure we won't be looking to bring in a first-choice RCB this summer. Both Matip and Lovren could play LCB next to a more dominant, organizing RCB in Sakho's absence. However, I wouldn't necessarily trust any of our current CBs (Kolo the exception, but fitness and pace being a concern over the long-term) to lead the defensive line.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by iftikhar on Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:11 pm

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by sportsczy on Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:28 am

Hard to tell right now... depends on what he used. If it's a common supplement that can easily lead to a mistake... fine. Benefit of the doubt. But if Sakho took some obscure supplement, it would indicate to me that he searched it out and actually did some research... in this case, i feel he is likely disingenuous.

Regardless, it's stupid and will likely get him banned. Will get banned for the Euro? I doubt it. He'll file an appeal that won't be heard until after the Euro if he got a ban now. It would be bad for Liverpool though since it would mean that his ban would only start after the appeal post-Euro.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Don't call me James on Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:25 am

That would be awful if we give him this leave to deal with the investigation and none of it actually counts towards his official suspension.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Art Morte on Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:31 am

Yeah, the club pays his salary, if it's looking obvious he's going to get a ban the club isn't going to wait the off-season through an appeal procedure before it starts. Frankly, I think Sakho accepts this as well. Do athletes even appeal doping bans anyway? I don't seem to remember any cases. If your A and B samples say you've used a banned substance there's very little to argue about that.
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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by sportsczy on Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:25 am

No way he's going to miss the Euro in France if he can do something about it... he will appeal if the suspension applies to the Euro.  It's guaranteed to me.  Nothing the club can do about it.  It's his right to do so.

In any case, he is going to provide a sample for his B test.  And then he will also have a date where he will present his case as to why he took the substance.  With the opening game of the Euro being 6 weeks away, it's going to be very tight for UEFA to go through all this, give a suspension, have Sakho appeal the suspension, have an appeal hearing, etc.

To me, this thing is going to drag out until after the Euro as there's just very little time to go through all the procedures before and UEFA is likely going to be very busy with the Euro itself.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Don't call me James on Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:27 am

@sportsczy wrote:
In any case, he is going to provide a sample for his B test.  And then he will also have a date where he will present his case as to why he took the substance.  With the opening game of the Euro being 6 weeks away, it's going to be very tight for UEFA to go through all this, give a suspension, have Sakho appeal the suspension, have an appeal hearing, etc.


He won't provide any sample. They already have the B sample. Whenever they do drug tests they take two samples in case something happens to the first one. Now they are just going to check his B sample essentially.

Otherwise it wouldn't make sense giving a new sample months later when potentially any drugs have left the system.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by sportsczy on Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:27 am

Sorry... I meant the player has to request the B Sample to be tested. UEFA can't do it unilaterally. Sakho has until Tuesday to make the request and i bet you that he waits for the last possible moment. The more the process drags on, the better it is for him.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by mr-r34 on Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:39 pm

As a professional athlete, he should know unless a club rep tells him to take something he shouldn't try it. The guy isnt 10, if he can't figure out that the suplliment industry is one of the biggest crocks in the world he probably needs someone to hold his hand in all major life descions. He *bleep* up, i'm more than confident the club have warned players about suppliments, IF and only if the club have negelected to ever say anything about supps then i would put half the blame on them, i'm more inclined to believe the club have warned all players about suppliments then them neglecting the topic.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Unique on Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:43 pm

fat burners do 2 things. make your heart beat a little faster and make your body run a little hot. for the love of god can anyone tell me how pulpertations and a feaver will give anyone a unfair advantage. imo they ban things that would not in any way give a person a unfair advantage. what over the counter supplement can make a player run faster. stronger and longer.

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

Post by Adit on Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:37 pm

So using drugs to make much better blood circulation which in turn improve stamina is not cheating?

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Re: Mamadou "Kirikou" Sakho

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