Arsene Wenger Contract Discussion Thread

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Post by Raptorgunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:53 pm

The telegraph put it quite bluntly, Wenger is afraid of confrontation.

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Post by MJ Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:53 pm

It's amazing how 4 games of football (City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton) can make people turn so viciously. Not discrediting them, there are definitely serious issues that need to be addressed but the atmosphere has turned completely toxic.

I guarantee that on Saturday we'll either get some more patience for Arsene or #WengerOut in full force.
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Post by MJ Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:00 pm

And the LeGrove piece did strike me as rather impassioned and it did seem a little bit as if he was, as he put it, "piecing a story together that doesn't exit."

Not sure I'd go by all that he said, that Wenger ignores staff warnings about players that he listens to no one and takes, basically as he seemed to imply, no advice or consultation. Plenty of managers put their guys on the pitch knowing that they're at risk. Some of that is down to judgment calls, I think this year more than most seasons past has witnessed Wenger sticking with the winning team regardless of the opponent, evidenced by our 10 game winning streak at the beginning of the season and playing starters vs Coventry.

The pressure to win a trophy has driven him to that point, can't risk not winning even if you lose a player or two. Maybe he didn't anticipate that we'd lose so many for so long. Sometimes you lose a player like Jack to plain shite luck and terrible challenges in pointless friendlies.

It's all caught up now though in terms of injuries.
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Post by Jay29 Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:02 pm

As I see it, fans aren't as fickle as people think. Four bad defeats haven't caused supporters to suddenly turn from supportive to oppressive, but rather, they've been catalysts for bringing out those uncertainties fans have always had and always tend to put to one side when things go well. You tend to give the manager the benefit of the doubt when your side is topping the table for most of the season, but the reality is that the cracks have been papered over, and it seems like some are now admitting, albeit reluctantly, that fact.

Le Grove has been against Wenger for a long time, so I was surprised to read a piece that didn't go overboard in criticising the manager. His criticisms are well-reasoned, even if they're only based off circumstantial evidence. If that's not sufficient for some, he does, at least, bring up a key issue, which is that Arsenal's backroom staff has largely been the same for a very long time. Stability and continuity is good, but you run a risk of getting stuck in your ways and not really keeping up with the rate of change and progress being made in football. There are times when you need to change personnel to bring fresh ideas and impetus into an organisation, and this applies to boardroom level, too.

The lack of football authority on the board seems to result in too much power being delegated to Wenger, and Wenger himself doesn't appear too willing to relinquish any of that power. I'm sure that if he wanted a Director of Football to help him with transfers, the board would readily give him one. If he wanted an analytic's department, the board would give him one. But because he's stubbornly set in his ways, he won't make any changes to the way things are done, and that's hindering our on-pitch progress.

This, for example:

Some of that is down to judgment calls, I think this year more than most seasons past has witnessed Wenger sticking with the winning team regardless of the opponent, evidenced by our 10 game winning streak at the beginning of the season and playing starters vs Coventry.

The pressure to win a trophy has driven him to that point, can't risk not winning even if you lose a player or two. Maybe he didn't anticipate that we'd lose so many for so long. Sometimes you lose a player like Jack to plain shite luck and terrible challenges in pointless friendlies.

...isn't the the best approach to take when you've got to manage so many games in a season. Even if you're under pressure to win something, you can't be starting key players against a League 1 side when those players need rest. The whole point of having a squad is that you can rotate and enable the manager to prioritise certain games, and not doing it shows a lack of faith in the talent on the bench. If the players in reserve aren't good enough or trustworthy enough to come into a winning side, then that's a recruitment problem. If you're not anticipating that players might get injured or fatigued through playing too many games, again, that's a problem.

And this is all just about fitness and coaching. When you throw in the issues with tactics, squad building and transfers, it paints an even uglier picture.

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Post by Raptorgunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:04 pm

United romped the league with the same set of players they have now, and they are lying 8th. The difference was the manager and his mindset. Fergie is a winner, and Moyes is not. Plain and simple.

Losers are content with 4th place, If Arsenal supporters are happy with 4th place then Wenger should not be, but its a record he is very proud of. Anyone who thinks Wenger will change and wants him to stay is agreeing to mediocrity. Wenger will never admit he is wrong. If he stays he will take forward exactly the same issues.

Winning the FA cup is the best way time to walk away, Wenger has to stop acting like he owes the club something. Arsenal existed before Wenger and will exist after Wenger.

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Post by MJ Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:21 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:

Some of that is down to judgment calls, I think this year more than most seasons past has witnessed Wenger sticking with the winning team regardless of the opponent, evidenced by our 10 game winning streak at the beginning of the season and playing starters vs Coventry.

The pressure to win a trophy has driven him to that point, can't risk not winning even if you lose a player or two. Maybe he didn't anticipate that we'd lose so many for so long. Sometimes you lose a player like Jack to plain shite luck and terrible challenges in pointless friendlies.

...isn't the the best approach to take when you've got to manage so many games in a season. Even if you're under pressure to win something, you can't be starting key players against a League 1 side when those players need rest. The whole point of having a squad is that you can rotate and enable the manager to prioritise certain games, and not doing it shows a lack of faith in the talent on the bench. If the players in reserve aren't good enough or trustworthy enough to come into a winning side, then that's a recruitment problem. If you're not anticipating that players might get injured or fatigued through playing too many games, again, that's a problem.

And this is all just about fitness and coaching. When you throw in the issues with tactics, squad building and transfers, it paints an even uglier picture.

It wasn't a defense of Wenger, it was calling it as it happened. But regardless, I don't know how confident he was in other options to assure victory. Coventry are just an example. There were plenty of instances where Ramsey should have been rested.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:27 pm

@wengerknowsbest: I can tell you, I will not walk away from this club. For £7.5m a year, I might find a taxi of exceptional quality.
rofl
____________
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Btw, Rapz your sig :bow:
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Post by Raptorgunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:33 pm

El Gunner wrote:@wengerknowsbest: I can tell you, I will not walk away from this club. For £7.5m a year, I might find a taxi of exceptional quality.
rofl
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Btw, Rapz your sig :bow:

 Thumbs up rofl 

I thought this one was pretty funny also.


I take full responsibility for losing at Everton. I can assure you, nobody is bigger than this club. Although Mertesacker is 6ft 6.
 rofl 
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Post by EL Patron Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:14 pm

There seem to be a certain delusion amongst fans that a new manager will bring instant success (Premierleague Title & Champions league etc). Even if Wenger leaves, the managers that are available out there are hardly worthy successors. If a new manager comes in we will probably be fighting for 4th place again for a good number of seasons.
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Post by Raptorgunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:46 pm

I guess it does not matter who we bring in, fighting for 4th place is our only ambition? so whats the point of keeping Wenger?

Even Wigan won the FA cup, something we have not done in 10 years.

We have a top players, just need coach who will play them in the right position and not favoring a useless striker game after game. Wenger must not be afraid of change.

I believe Wenger will not leave Arsenal no mater what happens. There is no pressure and is not his fault the board has no ambition and Wenger is happy being GOD at Arsenal. Wenger would get a heart attack if another person manages Arsenal.



Last edited by Raptorgunner on Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by EL Patron Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:57 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:I guess it does not matter who we bring in, fighting for 4th place is our only ambition? so whats the point of keeping Wenger?

Even Wigan won the FA cup, something we have not done in 10 years.

We have a top players, just need coach who will play them in the right position and not favoring a useless striker game after game.

I believe Wenger will not leave Arsenal no mater what happens. There is no pressure and is not his fault the board has no ambition and Wenger is happy being GOD at Arsenal. Wenger would get a heart attack if another person manages Arsenal.

since you are so adamant that we will be successful when he goes. Who do you want to replace him when he leaves ?. You know that Arsene plays a big part in attracting players, its a fact that players come to Arsenal because of him. Look at Yanited they struggled all summer to attract players because they had a manager that no one rated. Look at Speeerz they have to spend over the top to sign decent ish players because the players don't rate their club nor their manager. Arsene has his faults and he deserves his criticism over the poor performance of the team but people need to be a bit more realistic over what they want or expect. People aren't satisfied with finish top but being deluded to the point where you think that sacking Wenger means that we will immediately be successful is just laughable. These things take times and patience, patience is a word Arsenal fans are fed up with yet they seem to think that a new manager guarantees them the treble  Laughing
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Post by Raptorgunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:09 pm

EL Patron wrote:
Raptorgunner wrote:I guess it does not matter who we bring in, fighting for 4th place is our only ambition? so whats the point of keeping Wenger?

Even Wigan won the FA cup, something we have not done in 10 years.

We have a top players, just need coach who will play them in the right position and not favoring a useless striker game after game.

I believe Wenger will not leave Arsenal no mater what happens. There is no pressure and is not his fault the board has no ambition and Wenger is happy being GOD at Arsenal. Wenger would get a heart attack if another person manages Arsenal.

since you are so adamant that we will be successful when he goes. Who do you want to replace him when he leaves ?

For 7.5m a year? we can get almost any coach we want. I dont know who and I didn't say we would be successful with new manager. If Wenger was younger, I would not care if he signed but whats 1 or 2 years going to do for us? the sooner we make the change the sooner we can move on.
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Post by Jay29 Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:28 pm

EL Patron wrote:There seem to be a certain delusion amongst fans that a new manager will bring instant success (Premierleague Title & Champions league etc). Even if Wenger leaves, the managers that are available out there are hardly worthy successors. If a new manager comes in we will probably be fighting for 4th place again for a good number of seasons.

I don't know who's saying a new manager guarantees success because I've not seen anyone say that. It's clearly nonsense because any manager would need time to settle in and make his mark.

However, we can't say for sure what will happen when a new manager does come in. What's to say a new manager wouldn't come in, improve the backroom staff, improve the injury situation, and improve the teams approach to preparation and tactics? If someone improved all those things we'd be higher in the table with the squad we currently have.

The idea that a new manager will come on and make everything better just like that is silly, but so is the idea that only Wenger could achieve top four with our squad and resources.

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Post by EL Patron Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:40 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:
EL Patron wrote:There seem to be a certain delusion amongst fans that a new manager will bring instant success (Premierleague Title & Champions league etc). Even if Wenger leaves, the managers that are available out there are hardly worthy successors. If a new manager comes in we will probably be fighting for 4th place again for a good number of seasons.

I don't know who's saying a new manager guarantees success because I've not seen anyone say that. It's clearly nonsense because any manager would need time to settle in and make his mark.

However, we can't say for sure what will happen when a new manager does come in. What's to say a new manager wouldn't come in, improve the backroom staff, improve the injury situation, and improve the teams approach to preparation and tactics? If someone improved all those things we'd be higher in the table with the squad we currently have.

The idea that a new manager will come on and make everything better just like that is silly, but so is the idea that only Wenger could achieve top four with our squad and resources.
that seems to be the vibe certain fans. Its like they believe in fairy tale or something. Many want the club most successful manager gone yet they can't come up with a worthy successor or they bring up unrealistic names like Klopp. Managerial change brings various changes around the club. Like you mentioned he will probably bring in his own staff, instructions, tactics, players etc.

He will also needs a bit of time to settle into his new role and stamp his authority around the club. All this brings transition transition, we have had about 7 years of transition already. The last thing the club need ta the moment is more transition, we need someone who can come in straight away and prepare the club for a title challenge. When you consider that we don't even have a sugar daddy, Its a bit unrealistic but this how high the expectations are amongst the fans are and rightly so. They pay one of the highest season ticket in the league. Unless the board can't identify a manager who is better than Arsene then I wouldn't mind him staying if he gets the cup and top four of course.
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Post by 6unner Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:23 pm

MJGunner wrote:It's amazing how 4 games of football (City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton) can make people turn so viciously. Not discrediting them, there are definitely serious issues that need to be addressed but the atmosphere has turned completely toxic.

I guarantee that on Saturday we'll either get some more patience for Arsene or #WengerOut in full force.


Not sure that it has really just been 4 games that is causing all the anxiety. We really have not looked good most of the year regardless of the early wins. How many of our games did it seem we were fortunate to get an early goal and then play good enough defense to win only to look inept in attack. I think that you can go on all you want about possession. Just that possession without the actual threat of scoring is empty time. Be honest how many of those 1-0 or 2-1 games did we leave thinking, Yea we won, but if they had pressed our midfield like <insert name of anyone we lost to> and I am not sure we would have won. In the past I think that all teams were somewhat intimidated to play Arsenal. Our ability to score goals was at the very top of the EPL. Starting last year and being magnified greatly this year, we are no longer a threat to score goals. Just posses the ball until we turn it over. Playing AFC is no longer what it was. I think that this is really what is bothering people.

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Post by El Gunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:03 pm

Look EL Patron, mate, you say that if we get a new manager we might most likely be fighting for the top 4 place in the next few seasons. Well that is exactly what we've been doing under Wenger for exactly 9 years now.
And the thing is, Wenger's approach and philosophy hasn't had that big enough of an impact to drive us to a trophy or a real title charge in the league.

So let's say we make a change. Believe me. No one believes we'll reach instant success. We all know that it'll take some time. But why not make a change just for the cause of trying something new?
Why not get in a fresh head, with new ideas and a better tactical mind for the game?
We're witnessing that we're going nowhere with Wenger atm. We're at a standstill. Or rather, we're falling behind to 3 other teams in the league as every season goes by. We're getting too far out of touch from the other elite European teams, who implement good tactics into their game (probably bar Barcelona, but they're good at what they do.)
So if we make this change, get in a good manager, don't ask me who, I'm just arguing that if we make this change things might turn out better in the long run rather than just staying at a standstill under Wenger.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:08 pm

6unner wrote:
MJGunner wrote:It's amazing how 4 games of football (City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton) can make people turn so viciously. Not discrediting them, there are definitely serious issues that need to be addressed but the atmosphere has turned completely toxic.

I guarantee that on Saturday we'll either get some more patience for Arsene or #WengerOut in full force.


Not sure that  it has really just been 4 games that is causing all the anxiety. We really have not looked good most of the year regardless of the early wins. How many of our games did it seem we were fortunate to get an early goal and then play good enough defense to win only to look inept in attack. I think that you can go on all you want about possession. Just that possession without the actual threat of scoring is empty time. Be honest how many of those 1-0 or 2-1 games did we leave thinking, Yea we won, but if they had pressed our midfield like <insert name of anyone we lost to> and I am not sure we would have won. In the past I think that all teams were somewhat intimidated to play Arsenal. Our ability to score goals was at the very top of the EPL. Starting last year and being magnified greatly this year, we are no longer a threat to score goals. Just posses the ball until we turn it over. Playing AFC is no longer what it was. I think that this is really what is bothering people.
+1 Thumbs up
It's not solely based on this season also, MJ.
I mean, brah, we know this shit for about 7,8,9 years now. We've all witnessed it. Come on I don't need to explain it to you.
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Post by VendettaRed07 Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:12 pm

We will have to prepare for life without Wenger sooner or later. Whether its at the end of this season, or 2 or 3 years from now, an era will end and we will have to start over again sometime.

We can't be so pessimistic about what a new manager will be able to do. Even if we bring in someone young and unproven, you always have to think, who was Wenger before he came to Arsenal? You never know what can happen. Wenger will leave whoever his success is in a very good situation.. With a young, capable squad and appropriate resources to build a team into his vision.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:26 pm

VendettaRed07 wrote:We will have to prepare for life without Wenger sooner or later. Whether its at the end of this season, or 2 or 3 years from now, an era will end and we will have to start over again sometime.

We can't be so pessimistic about what a new manager will be able to do. Even if we bring in someone young and unproven, you always have to think, who was Wenger before he came to Arsenal? You never know what can happen. Wenger will leave whoever his success is in a very good situation.. With a young, capable squad and appropriate resources to build a team into his vision.
Exactly. The resources will be there.
All we need is a fresh, smart mind. Doesn't have to be an old, experienced, proven man.
Some are afraid of change, and with reason, I can understand. But we've been dwelling in mediocrity for too long now. Change might just be that catalyst that we need.
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Post by Jay29 Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:41 pm

Also, I think people underestimate just how attractive a prospect Arsenal is. In the top 10 richest clubs in the world, a transfer budget approaching £100mil, 60,000 seater stadium filled out every game with a huge worldwide fanbase, a good squad with some talented young players plus a good academy. Arsenal will attract good managers. It's just a matter of finding the right one.

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Post by MJ Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:52 pm

@El and 6unner

Maybe I should have been more clear. Those 4 games made people bring up things they'd been quiet about for much of the season. I know we've been moaning for much longer, don't worry.
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Post by urbaNRoots Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:58 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:Also, I think people underestimate just how attractive a prospect Arsenal is. In the top 10 richest clubs in the world, a transfer budget approaching £100mil, 60,000 seater stadium filled out every game with a huge worldwide fanbase, a good squad with some talented young players plus a good academy. Arsenal will attract good managers. It's just a matter of finding the right one.

Not to mention an über-supportive board, it's a dream job for most managers in the world.
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Post by EL Patron Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:03 pm

El Gunner wrote:
VendettaRed07 wrote:We will have to prepare for life without Wenger sooner or later. Whether its at the end of this season, or 2 or 3 years from now, an era will end and we will have to start over again sometime.

We can't be so pessimistic about what a new manager will be able to do. Even if we bring in someone young and unproven, you always have to think, who was Wenger before he came to Arsenal? You never know what can happen. Wenger will leave whoever his success is in a very good situation.. With a young, capable squad and appropriate resources to build a team into his vision.
Exactly. The resources will be there.
All we need is a fresh, smart mind. Doesn't have to be an old, experienced, proven man.
Some are afraid of change, and with reason, I can understand. But we've been dwelling in mediocrity for too long now. Change might just be that catalyst that we need.

Resources are there  Laughing 

Just because we have signed a few commercial deal people are expecting a shopping spree every summer  Rolling Eyes 

We are competing with two sugar daddy clubs with bottomless pit and we still have the stadium debt to pay off. A new manager will also struggle to compete against two clubs with unlimited resources just like Wenger has. If you actually expect a new manager especially one who is "young" to come here and compete straight away with the Oil teams in the league then you are in cloud 9
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Post by El Gunner Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:50 pm

Pls read thoroughly what we said above.
We never said that we'd be competing straight away.
And yes, we have the resources and the almost-perfect set-up for a new manager to come in. Read Jay's post above.
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Post by Twoism Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:08 am

I said it a few times but my problem with Wengers goes deeper than our transfer policy. Lets be frank, except some good games against lesser teams this season, we looked absolutely horse shit and had a worst record against top team, that's my main problem. After 6 games ( or even 3 seasons if u want to go back that far) I've seen no indication if wenger changing his approach, being pragmatic, being tactical game by game. And this year we developed the new trait too, play like shit 1st half and gave up after good 20 minutes of 2nd half.

Transfer you can change due to money input, a coach quality/ adaptabity (sp) you can not. Hence i want something new and i'm not afraid of change
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Post by urbaNRoots Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:14 am

Klopp yesterday played a team with a guy he signed as a free agent who hadn't played football for years as CB, a former striker playing as LB, a RB playing DM, a RW playing CM, and a RB playing LW and gave Real Madrid a proper beating. Just to show that great managers win big games even with a lot of injuries (a lot worse than our injury situation) and that our ability to lose in every big game because of injuries cannot be an excuse.
urbaNRoots
urbaNRoots
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