Torres then vs Suarez now

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Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Nishankly on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:55 pm

As the title says, Who would you chose in your team, Torres in his prime with LFC or Suarez in his form for us over his LFC years.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Nishankly on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:09 pm

Big game player:

Suarez has 3 against Spurs, 2 against Arsenal, Chelsea. 1 against City and United.

Torres has 7 against Chelsea, 3 against Arsenal, City, United, Spurs. Excluding Real, Inter, Benfica etc

Torres wins the Big game player card? hmm

Also
Has Suarez done enough or did Torres give us enough happiness that we wait until we get back in the CL to compare with him Suarez? hmm

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by iftikhar on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:22 pm

Suarez, no question. He simply offers more.

He scores
He assists
He draws players
He takes free-kicks
He bites  Laughing 

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Don't call me James on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:24 pm

Nish being a big game player isn't only about stats ffs. Like for example a couple of weeks ago at the Etihad, Suarez was the best player on the pitch  but no one will remember that.

For me though Suarez absolutely shits on Torres. The only thing you could possibly say Torres had on Suarez was clinicality and being more efficient but Suarez is on his way to absolutely murder Torres' goal tally for us in much much less games rendering this point moot.

And the rest of Suarez's game is miles ahead of Torres, so this is not even debatable really. I think in a couple of years we can compare Sturridge to Torres and that would actually be a closer comparison.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Fahim89 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:29 pm

For crying out loud! Suarez is being compared to aliens!!!!


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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Art Morte on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:54 pm

Obviously Suarez. He's a top-5 footballer in the world, imo, Torres never was anything like that.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Natalie Portman on Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:09 pm

@Art Morte wrote:Obviously Suarez. He's a top-5 footballer in the world, imo, Torres never was anything like that.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Natalie Portman on Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:10 pm

Torres can't even be compared to Suarez.

He is more comparable to Sturridge, and Daniel will surprass him if he keeps up his record with us for another year or 2.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Nishankly on Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

McAgger wrote:Nish being a big game player isn't only about stats ffs. Like for example a couple of weeks ago at the Etihad, Suarez was the best player on the pitch  but no one will remember that.


Yes i know, I argued that in the Ronaldo Suarez thread, I was just posting some interesting stats and asking questions hmm

--

Dead ball situations also work in favor of Suarez.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by mr-r34 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:27 am

LOL, Suarez shits on Torres.




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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by ExtremistEnigma on Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:40 am

If you had asked this over a year back, then it was close. There's no competition now.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Red Alert on Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:49 am

Suarez is the most complete forward I've ever seen play for Liverpool.* Luis >>> Torres, but they're two different types of players. Torres was a poacher for us.

Torres was always the better finisher in comparison to Luis, and that's probably the only thing he has over him. Well, obviously pace too... but Luis makes up with that with his movement.

I agree with Sepi where it should be Torres vs Sturridge.

*From '98 onwards.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Helmer on Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:21 pm

Bitey Boy cheers , somehow recently I have started liking him again after the summer saga

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by iftikhar on Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:28 pm

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:Bitey Boy cheers, somehow recently I have started liking him again after the summer saga

wonder what could possibly make you do such thing  hmm 

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Arquitescu on Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:31 pm

Disgusted by the prejudice given to Torres' legacy in Liverpool. Right in his first season he scored 33 goals for our team and followed the years up with wonderful performances. Do we all forget that Torres had an injury ridden career within Liverpool yet came back every time to break records on a goal to minutes ratio, within games big or small or service or no service?

Suarez is a world class player yet can be frustrating at times especially when faced versus defences of higher calibre who have slowly learned how to phase him out of games; a recent occurrence.

We can talk about Suarez' traits yet we forget Torres' ability to create space by his movement and link-up play and leading the line far better than Suarez, along with his presence alone to which had us play far better than without him.

And yes, Torres was the best pure striker in the world on form, only David Villa matching his calibre as there wasn't a game that we did not expect that Torres would not score in.

I suspect that Torres' tarnished legacy within us Red family has tainted the memory of his performances, in stark comparison to Suarez who is the fan favourite. I sense a subjective bias to which has created a nonsensical disparity based on the emotional vector between both players.

Sit down and try to remember who Torres was for us and Suarez was before his truly world class year (this season).

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Red Alert on Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:00 am

@Arquitescu wrote:Disgusted by the prejudice given to Torres' legacy in Liverpool. Right in his first season he scored 33 goals for our team and followed the years up with wonderful performances. Do we all forget that Torres had an injury ridden career within Liverpool yet came back every time to break records on a goal to minutes ratio, within games big or small or service or no service?

Suarez is a world class player yet can be frustrating at times especially when faced versus defences of higher calibre who have slowly learned how to phase him out of games; a recent occurrence.

We can talk about Suarez' traits yet we forget Torres' ability to create space by his movement and link-up play and leading the line far better than Suarez, along with his presence alone to which had us play far better than without him.

And yes, Torres was the best pure striker in the world on form, only David Villa matching his calibre as there wasn't a game that we did not expect that Torres would not score in.

I suspect that Torres' tarnished legacy within us Red family has tainted the memory of his performances, in stark comparison to Suarez who is the fan favourite. I sense a subjective bias to which has created a nonsensical disparity based on the emotional vector between both players.

Sit down and try to remember who Torres was for us and Suarez was before his truly world class year (this season).  

No denying Torres' class at Liverpool. But Suarez is superior.

You have to just compare the two teams they played with.

Torres (who was a striker/finisher) played alongside a team that was arguably the best in Europe. We had a world class team when we had Alonso, prime Gerrard etc. There was no denying Torres was arguably one of the best strikers in the world when he was with us, considering the team was built around him.

But then you look at Luis' time here. Who did Luis play when he was signed? The only real player that was "good" was an ageing Gerrard. Dirk Kuyt was out of his prime here but did well with him for 6 months or so. Maxi was good, but was frozen out later to accomodate Downing... to accomodate Carroll. It's clear Luis has played in a WAYYYY inferior team and has stats very similiar to Torres and Luis was never that great of a finisher at Ajax. He was a playmaker, a second striker. He's only really adapted to being the complete player he is today because he's carried us for 3 years. Thankfully, he now has Sturridge and Coutinho (who's still very young...) to help take the burden off of him. Still think we need another player to help him out, but that's for another thread.

And the text highlighted in red is just false, and I'm surprised you believe the myth. Suarez gets absolutely NO SERVICE away from home. He's pretty much the only player in the final third when we're on the road. He gets no support whatsoever, so it's clear he's not going to be a threat to teams of the higher calibre when it's him against the rest. Look at the game against City or Spurs for example. We played our game, as a team, and Luis was a standout player. Look at the games against Chelsea and Arsenal, and you'll see he's isolated up front.

And I'd like examples of the part highlighted in blue. We play with 9 men behind the ball when Luis doesn't play... results have really blinded the performances of majority of our games. :S

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Arquitescu on Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:00 am

@Red Alert wrote:
@Arquitescu wrote:Disgusted by the prejudice given to Torres' legacy in Liverpool. Right in his first season he scored 33 goals for our team and followed the years up with wonderful performances. Do we all forget that Torres had an injury ridden career within Liverpool yet came back every time to break records on a goal to minutes ratio, within games big or small or service or no service?

Suarez is a world class player yet can be frustrating at times especially when faced versus defences of higher calibre who have slowly learned how to phase him out of games; a recent occurrence.

We can talk about Suarez' traits yet we forget Torres' ability to create space by his movement and link-up play and leading the line far better than Suarez, along with his presence alone to which had us play far better than without him.

And yes, Torres was the best pure striker in the world on form, only David Villa matching his calibre as there wasn't a game that we did not expect that Torres would not score in.

I suspect that Torres' tarnished legacy within us Red family has tainted the memory of his performances, in stark comparison to Suarez who is the fan favourite. I sense a subjective bias to which has created a nonsensical disparity based on the emotional vector between both players.

Sit down and try to remember who Torres was for us and Suarez was before his truly world class year (this season).  

No denying Torres' class at Liverpool. But Suarez is superior.  

You have to just compare the two teams they played with.

Torres (who was a striker/finisher) played alongside a team that was arguably the best in Europe. We had a world class team when we had Alonso, prime Gerrard etc. There was no denying Torres was arguably one of the best strikers in the world when he was with us, considering the team was built around him.

But then you look at Luis' time here. Who did Luis play when he was signed? The only real player that was "good" was an ageing Gerrard. Dirk Kuyt was out of his prime here but did well with him for 6 months or so. Maxi was good, but was frozen out later to accomodate Downing... to accomodate Carroll. It's clear Luis has played in a WAYYYY inferior team and has stats very similiar to Torres and Luis was never that great of a finisher at Ajax. He was a playmaker, a second striker. He's only really adapted to being the complete player he is today because he's carried us for 3 years. Thankfully, he now has Sturridge and Coutinho (who's still very young...) to help take the burden off of him. Still think we need another player to help him out, but that's for another thread.

And the text highlighted in red is just false, and I'm surprised you believe the myth. Suarez gets absolutely NO SERVICE away from home. He's pretty much the only player in the final third when we're on the road. He gets no support whatsoever, so it's clear he's not going to be a threat to teams of the higher calibre when it's him against the rest. Look at the game against City or Spurs for example. We played our game, as a team, and Luis was a standout player. Look at the games against Chelsea and Arsenal, and you'll see he's isolated up front.

And I'd like examples of the part highlighted in blue. We play with 9 men behind the ball when Luis doesn't play... results have really blinded the performances of majority of our games. :S

This is a good response, YNWA.

But the debate is who was the better player for us, rather than what they were afforded in terms of tactics, players around them and systema. See, the other side of the debate is that Suarez is made to look better given that the team quality is nowhere near what it was in Rafa's finest year, for example.

Service? That is another good point as under Kenny and Rodgers, we have been a team under tactical transition checkpoints, rather than the system that Benitez refined until conviction for Fernando Torres.

I am not saying that Torres flops versus big defences, as believe me as I have been defending him on that versus say, Mole this whole season now. Yet I do think versus more physical and compact defences, who have slowly learned to isolated him, that he is not as influential as he is versus the more inept defences. This though, is probably harsh considering 2 big games played without Danny, forcing him on the shoulder and out of his natural (indirect role) along with our midfield being dominated by the opposition. What I appreciate about Suarez is how he has evolved his game and become less frustrating compared to last year, where his slightly predictable repertoire, has now been eliminated.

Examples in blue? Well Suarez' indirect play is not one that leads the line supremely unless thwarted by a direct threat in the form of Sturridge. Leading the line is an underrated trait to CFs off-the-ball perform quite well, and keep in mind I prefer what Torres produces off-the-ball as compared to Suarez. This also can be debated as Suarez unpredictable movement off-the-ball also, is wonderful. It is just that I prefer Torres' cleaner movement which helps the midfield calibrate where to pass along with his strength and ability to acquire the ball from any angle.

You must understand that the premise of my debate was to highlight the unnecessary disparity our posters created between Torres & Suarez, some of them for more subjective reasons. It is not to highlight that Torres is a superior player OR even if Torres has a superior legacy; but to ask for us to cherish what was an unstoppable force in prime Fernando, essentially not to far off from Suarez' legacy so far in LFC; if not equal.




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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Red Alert on Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:04 am

@Arquitescu wrote:This is a good response, YNWA.

But the debate is who was the better player for us, rather than what they were afforded in terms of tactics, players around them and systema. See, the other side of the debate is that Suarez is made to look better given that the team quality is nowhere near what it was in Rafa's finest year, for example.

Service? That is another good point as under Kenny and Rodgers, we have been a team under tactical transition checkpoints, rather than the system that Benitez refined until conviction for Fernando Torres.

I am not saying that Torres flops versus big defences, as believe me as I have been defending him on that versus say, Mole this whole season now. Yet I do think versus more physical and compact defences, who have slowly learned to isolated him, that he is not as influential as he is versus the more inept defences. This though, is probably harsh considering 2 big games played without Danny, forcing him on the shoulder and out of his natural (indirect role) along with our midfield being dominated by the opposition. What I appreciate about Suarez is how he has evolved his game and become less frustrating compared to last year, where his slightly predictable repertoire, has now been eliminated.

Examples in blue? Well Suarez' indirect play is not one that leads the line supremely unless thwarted by a direct threat in the form of Sturridge. Leading the line is an underrated trait to CFs off-the-ball perform quite well, and keep in mind I prefer what Torres produces off-the-ball as compared to Suarez. This also can be debated as Suarez unpredictable movement off-the-ball also, is wonderful. It is just that I prefer Torres' cleaner movement which helps the midfield calibrate where to pass along with his strength and ability to acquire the ball from any angle.

You must understand that the premise of my debate was to highlight the unnecessary disparity our posters created between Torres & Suarez, some of them for more subjective reasons. It is not to highlight that Torres is a superior player OR even if Torres has a superior legacy; but to ask for us to cherish what was an unstoppable force in prime Fernando, essentially not to far off from Suarez' legacy so far in LFC; if not equal.

Well, how do you define a better player? Do you honestly think Torres would maintain his great goal-to-game ratio with us in the same team Suarez has played for Liverpool? Because I don't think he could. Suarez in his first 2 seasons here was pretty much his only source for creating chances (alongside Gerrard who was adapting to a new role deeper in midfield).

I never stated you said Torres flopped in big games, I was talking about Luis. They both stepped up in those big games, there's no denying that. I just can't buy this new myth going around that (not just on GoalLegacy but in general) that Suarez struggles against bigger sides. It's just... wrong. He struggles away from home because of tactical reasons.

Torres plays in a similiar style to Sturridge now, so I'm not sure how we can compare Torres and Suarez off the ball movement in the team. Again, they're (Luis/Torres) two different types of players. Torres looked more natural to play off the last man as he had both the movement and the pace to do so. So it looked more effective as it was quicker and deadlier as Fernando was the better finisher out of the two. The fact that Gerrard would find him 9 times out of 10 also helped, as Torres could rely on Stevie to play it over the top. They had a mental understanding. Suarez never had a striking partnership since Sturridge came to the club. So, Suarez on the other hand, had to drop off defenders, and would much rather play the ball to keep possession, because he had no one in the final third with him. He now plays the ball to Sturridge and would much prefer to do that than to play off the last defender himself. (Again, he's always been a SS). That doesn't mean Luis can't play off the last man, he certainly can, but they both have different mind sets / two different types of playing styles.

Apologies for misunderstanding, and I can agree with that but only to an extent. I have to say that Suarez has done more for the club. That's not to say Torres didn't do anything for us; he will always be remembered as a great striker for Liverpool, but his reputation with the fans, and the way he left the club will always tarnish his time at the club. The fact that he went to a "rival" club, and won silverware makes it even worse as he didn't do that here (due to injuries/G+H etc). Suarez on the other hand, helped Liverpool win a trophy (even if it was a "Mickey Mouse" cup), has pretty much carried Liverpool in the final third for 3.5 years now, and has just kept the hopes of Liverpool alive in the darkest era of the club.

With all that said, I think the main reason people are picking Suarez over Torres is attitude. Suarez plays every game as if it was his last. He plays at 100% and never does he go missing. Towards the end of Torres' career here, I'm talking about more Roy's tenure here, but he did at the end of Rafa's too, but he would looked disinterested and just out of it because he was prevented a move; it was clear he didn't want to be here and it was affecting his performances. It was also affecting Liverpool. I can understand that we don't know exactly what was going off behind the scenes, but I think that hurt his image against a lot of Red fans. Luis also wanted to leave in the summer (to a top top team, sorry Arsenal fans), but has came back and showed that he still plays for the shirt. Torres didn't do that.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by El Chelsea Fuerte on Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:06 am

SUAREZ. nuff said

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Arquitescu on Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:10 pm

YNWA, before I respond I did indeed mean Suarez as the 3rd paragraph was not meant for Torres.

How do I define a better player? Well I will not digress from the fact that Suarez is a superior player, arguably to even a prime Torres.

Sturridge has been excellent for us yet he has some way to go before replicated what Torres has done for us as I have my reservations on Sturridge's tactical limitations as well as his own limits, though he is only 23-24.

Service is a good point yet I always found it a resounding myth that Torres needed service from Gerrard to score, let alone service itself. He truly won me over when he replicated his goals in the absence of Gerrard and our usually injury ridden midfield.

Personally I prefer to judge Torres based on when he played for us, rather than fuse his legacy based on his decision to move to Chelsea. But...

You will not receive any arguments from me on how Torres incensed us Reds on his decision. Near the end of his Liverpool tenure I continually criticized his attitude and sincerity to our cause despite his previous affirmations. His move to Chelsea cemented my utter disgust for his lies and it completely shredded the image I had for him. Red and Sepi condemned my thoughts on burning my shirt of Torres as such was my reeling reaction to his decision.

The rest of your points comparing Suarez's circumstances to Torres and the difference between players is very sound, can't expand much more on that.

Luis playing for the shirt? As you know I had my criticisms on why he does not deserve to yet I will be writing an article on how he has won me back over, not just because of his performances.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Red Alert on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:05 am

Torres didn't need the service, but he had better service is all I meant. I can't see Torres playing with Sterling or Suso for 6 months without making a fuss. Suarez just continues to do do his role, and that's why I personally prefer him. With that said, I'm certain over 50% of Torres' goals came from a Gerrard assist.

We've privledged to see them both play for the club, we all would of liked to see them play together, but what do you do. We move on, I guess. Sturridge has came in, and is doing a brilliant job.

This thread's subjective either way. Most of the time you'd look at the present to pick player X or player Y. Torres is obviously not someone we need right now, as we have Sturridge. So I can see why everyone's just picked Suarez without going in to too much detail. People are still bitter that Torres has left too so decide to pick against him is all I meant.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by mr-r34 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:42 pm

I've written like 5 different responses in the last 30 minutes but i just CBF with it anymore, Suarez takes the cake and i honestly can't see how anyone can come up with a justification as to why he doesn't.

Unfortunately for Torres he left us in shit form and in terrible circumstances and his recent performances in the last couple of years have really put a massive damper on his Liverpool legacy.For me Torres was a great/WC striker and i really doubt DS in his prime would ever be better than Torres in his prime, but i wouldn't rule it out.

To say people are only choosing Suarez over Torres because Torres left us in terrible circumstances is a joke in all honesty. I didn't bother beforehand because i didn't really feel too much was to be debated about. Torres could of not done what luis has done for us since he has joined us, but if suarez was in our team back then, i'd go as far to say, we would of been PL champs in 08/09.


Side Question

Is anyone still bitter about Torres leaving for Chelsea? Surley not, if we got 35mil for him we would of had a good deal, in all honesty 50mil was a great deal, the only reason it seemed shit was cause we wasted it all on rejects.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Red Alert on Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:53 am

@mr-r34 wrote:
Is anyone still bitter about Torres leaving for Chelsea? Surley not, if we got 35mil for him we would of had a good deal, in all honesty 50mil was a great deal, the only reason it seemed shit was cause we wasted it all on rejects.

We got roughly 30m out of the deal looking at it now.

We received 50m for selling Torres.
We bought Carroll for 35m. (15m remaining*)
We sold Carroll for 17 ish.
30-35 remain depending on the add-ons from the West Ham deal and the initial loan payment.

Then there's two ways to look at it. We got Suarez and Sturridge for around that 30-35 mark, but we also wasted the money on Downing... and the whole process took 2-3 years between getting SAS together, so we "wasted" out on the potential cash we could of made if we got into the CL. So it looks like the right deal for us now, but it's taken 2-3 years for it to work out.

*Not adding the money spent on Suarez here as Luis was joining the club before we sold Torres.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by mr-r34 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:11 am

No regardless if we won the league or got relegated the DEAL, which only takes into account, torres out 50mil into the club, was always a great deal now and then. Regardless how kenny and co wasted the money, the deal was great.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

Post by Red Alert on Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:15 am

You'll have no arguments from me if we're specifically looking at the deal. As you said, the deal was great. I'm just looking at the bigger picture/how it's affected the present.

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Re: Torres then vs Suarez now

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