All about Mesut Özil

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by RealGunner on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:16 pm

Agreed.

Wish we had someone better instead.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Art Morte on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:22 pm

Nottingham Forest have this guy called Lansbury, 6 goals in 16 games this season, you should try to sign him, imo.
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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by RealGunner on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:23 pm

Right after Arsene retires and we get Sean Dyche to replace him.
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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:25 pm

Firmino had *one* great season in Bundesliga, the others were mediocre.
He's performing better than I expected and has quite improved IMO, especially physically. His finishing is a huge problem though.
Then again the PL is an attacker's paradise, it's no secret. Players ranging from Ba to Roque Santa Cruz suddenly hugely improved their output in the PL Laughing
Shaqiri's beasting too Laughing


Last edited by Hapless_Hans on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Art Morte on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:26 pm

Don't really know why Dyche would go for Lansbury when he's got taps on Scott Arfield, but both would surely be more consistent than Özil.
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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Don't call me James on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:38 pm

Always rated Henri Lansbury. When he was coming through Arsenal academy I really thought he would be as good as Ramsey is now.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by MJ on Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:32 pm

@Curtinho wrote:Using Firmino's season last year as some kind of comparison to Ozil's best season in the PL is misleading at best. Again, Firmino isn't hitting some purple patch. He was adjusting to a new team, playing in two different systems (or more really) without a defined role, and battled through injury last season. Not to mention he's only 25 so of course he's going to keep improving.

That said, like I said before, comparing Ozil to Firmino is not a slight against Ozil. Firmino is a genuinely top class player just like Ozil is. People downplay Ozil a lot (I don't think I ever have) but he's a very good offensive player. That said Firmino's off the ball work just brings more to the table IMO while also being just as effective offensively which pushes him over Ozil for me but everyone has their preferences and as Sri said there are many roles and different systems to play in that can have an effect on how a player performs or is perceived.


How is it misleading? Özil's creative numbers this year are better than Firmino's over the past two seasons and that's with a complete role change. Last season was just perspective when he was a pure number ten rather than the second striker role he's taken up.

I'm not saying Firmino isn't a good player, quite the opposite. But he's not in Özil's class yet. He hasn't played consistently elite football at the highest level like Özil has. He's achieved nothing so far. You're only proving my point by insisting he is based on his improvements this season.

and re Özil being a flat track bully, these are all the teams Firmino has ever scored against in the league: [16/17 - Leicester, Palace, Watford, Swansea] [15/16 - Watford, Bournemouth, City, Arsenal, Palace, Sunderland, Norwich]

As you can see, most of these teams are/were shite. Anything can be distorted to fit a narrative but there's nothing you can knock Özil for that Firmino doesn't have way more damning evidence about.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by MJ on Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:32 pm

Liked you guys more when you thought Coutinho was the messiah.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Don't call me James on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:00 pm

Coutinho is the best player in the league. Ozil and Firmino are a tiny level below.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by MJ on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:25 pm

@Don't call me James wrote:Coutinho is the best player in the league. Ozil and Firmino are a tiny level below.


I'm just waiting on comparisons between Henderson and prime Ballack and I'll have heard everything I need to hear.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by RealGunner on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:27 pm

@Don't call me James wrote:Coutinho is the best player in the league. Ozil and Firmino are a tiny level below.


Thoughts on Hazard this season chief?
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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Curtinho on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:28 pm

Firmino is better than Coutinho. Just as effective on the ball, but brings wayyyyy more off the ball. People pay too much attention to end product, and on the ball work though in general.

When you play a match, it is statistically proven that players actually have the ball 3 minutes on average … So, the most important thing is: what do you do during those 87 minutes when you do not have the ball. That is what determines whether you’re a good player or not. - Cruyff

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Helmer on Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:01 pm

now Coutinho is out, we will see if Firmino is anywhere to any level where he performed during this season.

Firmino has to prove himself constitently and at different levels, before he comes any close to Özil.

@Curtinho wrote:Firmino is better than Coutinho. Just as effective on the ball, but brings wayyyyy more off the ball. People pay too much attention to end product, and on the ball work though in general.

When you play a match, it is statistically proven that players actually have the ball 3 minutes on average … So, the most important thing is: what do you do during those 87 minutes when you do not have the ball. That is what determines whether you’re a good player or not. - Cruyff

well said and that is exaclt what Özil has got better in this season. If you want to use space arguement, Özil does exaclty that what a team needs and he create space for his teammates by taking attention of at least 2-3 oppositon players.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Curtinho on Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:41 pm

Ozil has always been great off the ball, but not in the same way or as all encompassing like Firmino. He doesn't bring nearly the same level of havoc off the ball when the opponent has it. Obviously his offensive instincts are off the charts though.

But yeah I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Firmino now that Coutinho is out. He may not get to continue to play up top where I think he's at his best.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:09 pm

@Curtinho wrote:Ozil has always been great off the ball, but not in the same way or as all encompassing like Firmino. He doesn't bring nearly the same level of havoc off the ball when the opponent has it. Obviously his offensive instincts are off the charts though.

But yeah I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Firmino now that Coutinho is out. He may not get to continue to play up top where I think he's at his best.


Yes, Firmino is great off the ball and also against the ball. He's also tactically accomplished in terms of pressing and transitions, so he's simply a very good fit for Klopp.

He's been doing great, simple as that.
I would advise Liverpool fans against opening up comparative debates against players like Özil just yet, though.

For all the incredible seasons Liverpool's players are having, Mané, Firmino, Coutinho, Lallana, all of them, add to that how fantastic Klopp is as a manager etc pp - they ve spent one meager match day atop of the league.
They're also only a couple points ahead of Arsenal, who are having a underwhelming season both in team performance and, so far, in terms of individual players like Özil, and also of course a manager who is seen as washed up and unimpressive by most observers.
Not to mention Pool finished far below Arsenal last season, too.
Go figure.

So Liverpool needs to actually accomplish something first, finish somewhere good, win something, before you start proclaiming your players among the best.

Klopp of course knows that. Why do you think he keeps repeating "Nothing has happened" after each game? Because nothing has happened.
Of course Hames, despite claiming to be Klopp's biggest fan, is ignoring the direct advise and judgement of Klopp. If Hames was a Liverpool-leaning journalist or pundit of influence, Klopp would want to kill him for what he's doing to expectations and team as well as individual mentality.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Helmer on Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:19 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Curtinho wrote:Ozil has always been great off the ball, but not in the same way or as all encompassing like Firmino. He doesn't bring nearly the same level of havoc off the ball when the opponent has it. Obviously his offensive instincts are off the charts though.

But yeah I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Firmino now that Coutinho is out. He may not get to continue to play up top where I think he's at his best.


Yes, Firmino is great off the ball and also against the ball. He's also tactically accomplished in terms of pressing and transitions, so he's simply a very good fit for Klopp.

He's been doing great, simple as that.
I would advise Liverpool fans against opening up comparative debates against players like Özil just yet, though.

For all the incredible seasons Liverpool's players are having, Mané, Firmino, Coutinho, Lallana, all of them, add to that how fantastic Klopp is as a manager etc pp - they ve spent one meager match day atop of the league.
They're also only a couple points ahead of Arsenal, who are having a underwhelming season both in team performance and, so far, in terms of individual players like Özil, and also of course a manager who is seen as washed up and unimpressive by most observers.
Not to mention Pool finished far below Arsenal last season, too.
Go figure.

So Liverpool needs to actually accomplish something first, finish somewhere good, win something, before you start proclaiming your players among the best.

Klopp of course knows that. Why do you think he keeps repeating "Nothing has happened" after each game? Because nothing has happened.
Of course Hames, despite claiming to be Klopp's biggest fan, is ignoring the direct advise and judgement of Klopp. If Hames was a Liverpool-leaning journalist or pundit of influence, Klopp would want to kill him for what he's doing to expectations and team as well as individual mentality.

the queen Hansa Strikes :bow:

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Curtinho on Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:45 pm

I think you're kind of moving the goalposts a bit there Hans, to be fair. I'm not saying that because Firmino is a great player that Liverpool are going to win the league or that they've really accomplished anything yet. I'm not trying to hype up the team beyond expectations or whatever.

I just have a very high opinion of Firmino and his level of play and it doesn't just date to this season. I've always held a high opinion of Ozil as well so meh. But I've always been an admirer of players that do a lot of work off the ball and in a team oriented fashion (see my opinions on Henderson, who to this day remains vastly underrated by most fans, Liverpool faithful included).

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:41 pm

I get that. I was starting by answering you yet then drifted off tbh.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by MJ on Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:06 pm

Firmino is not at Özil's level yet. It's ridiculous to make that comparison when Özil has been at the pinnacle, or thereabouts, of what it is to be a playmaker for a good 5+ years now. Firmino hasn't been playing at a comparable level for a consistent period of time, comparing them is over-hyping at best.

And to mention off-the-ball work and scoff at Özil like that's not the area where he excels the most to bring up Firmino 'wreaking havoc' as a counter-argument. Just appreciate Firmino's rise but let's call a spade a spade, he just isn't there yet.

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by El Gunner on Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:52 am

Cease this comparison

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by CBarca on Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:41 am

I was about to say, we're not going to do this again are we?
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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Sri on Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:47 am

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Unique on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:12 am

@Sri wrote:
eco smile

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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Socur Toxanarosa on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:58 am

@MJ wrote:It's ridiculous to make that comparison when Özil has been at the pinnacle, or thereabouts, of what it is to be a playmaker for a good 5+ years now.


LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

He is a Real Madrid reject, he does not belong to a top team, not even close, he plays well now because he is in a team of his level, but even in tougher games he disappears. The moment Real Madrid sold this fraud to play real world class players like Modric and Kroos they won the CL. Twice.

He is in the same class of Fábregas, Mata, etc... Decent players for a team that is a level or two below the top.

Pinnacle of what is to be a playmaker rofl


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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Sri on Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:28 am

LOL THAT INSIGHT :bow:

Where would be without such deep and insightful judgments Proud
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Re: All about Mesut Özil

Post by Sri on Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:34 am

Here's another fun one while we are at it:

What we can see with naked eyes is closer than what is too distant to be seen. Therefore, the moon is closer to the Europe than Antartica :coffee:
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Re: All about Mesut Özil

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