If not Martino, whom?

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Who do you want to take over Barca if Martino leaves/is sacked?

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Post by futbol Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:22 am

I actually want Tata to stay now, realizing the alternatives. He didn't do optimal but not that catastrophic either like going behind 0-3 at Camp Nou to Real Madrid or losing 0-7 to Bayern. We might finish 3th in the league despite getting 90+ points (despite all the shenanigans surrounding the club this season). Which is crazy. He can surely improve with 1 year experience and some signings. For all we know Atletico Madrid might also knock out Mourinho and Pep in the CL this season. What then? No shame losing 1-2 to a team like that with Fartra and Pinto in defense.

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Post by free_cat Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:45 am

:facepalm: Fussball.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:05 pm

That's just the superficial look at it, for me.

The team has shown no progress from the start of the season till now, the team has not absorbed his ideas and progressed. In fact, the team is going backwards and looks completely lost and confused.

All the teams with new coaches, the ones that have done well, have done so with the team gradually improving and taking on a greater understanding of what the coach wants.

On top of that, Martino's blindness/fear which resulted in that "big game line up" was an incredible mistake and it was further compounded by him playing that same line up, game after game, despite it obviously failing.

I get what your saying, the lack of alternatives out there worry me also...but lowering the standards by saying at least he didnt lose 7-0 Bayern is not an acceptable reason to keep him on.

As I said before, I would give him another year...but that opinion changed when he time after time played that stupid line up with no change...that was it for me. You dont get another year after showing such poor vision.

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Post by Kick Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:39 pm

Moyes has to be a frontrunner now.

I actually think this is an incredibly hard decision as very few managers fit the bill.
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Post by jibers Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:35 pm

Kick wrote:Moyes has to be a frontrunner now.

I actually think this is an incredibly hard decision as very few managers fit the bill.

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Post by shinigami99 Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:30 pm

Lol I'm pretty sure he's going to resign anyway (i.e. he won't be sacked or anything like that). I think even he realizes how much he screwed up. Though I would not mind giving him another season if there's absolutely no other good coach out there who could possibly do a better job.
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Post by futbol Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:27 pm

The Franchise wrote:That's just the superficial look at it, for me.

The team has shown no progress from the start of the season till now, the team has not absorbed his ideas and progressed. In fact, the team is going backwards and looks completely lost and confused.

All the teams with new coaches, the ones that have done well, have done so with the team gradually improving and taking on a greater understanding of what the coach wants.

On top of that, Martino's blindness/fear which resulted in that "big game line up" was an incredible mistake and it was further compounded by him playing that same line up, game after game, despite it obviously failing.

I get what your saying, the lack of alternatives out there worry me also...but lowering the standards by saying at least he didnt lose 7-0 Bayern is not an acceptable reason to keep him on.

As I said before, I would give him another year...but that opinion changed when he time after time played that stupid line up with no change...that was it for me. You dont get another year after showing such poor vision.


I imagine next season he would correct most of the mistake he committed this season. Like the "big game lineup". He strikes me as an honest and intelligent man. He already said a few days ago he would have done a bit differently in hindsight and started with Alexis. He doesn't strike me completely clueless. He has now gotten used to the squad and will probably not be intimidated by the big names (if that ever happened to begin with).

Ultimately the alternatives are de Boer and Luis Enrique. Valverde clearly declined with a big fat "no" (actually 2 noes to make it very clear even for the thickest). De Boer is promising but not a proven mesiah, just another gamble. He's coaching a bunch of kids and playing tippy-tappy football in a 3th rate league. He's one for the future though. Luis Enrique? Lucho is a very poor man's wannabe Guardiola. Tried to get rid of Totti immediately after joining Roma but unlike Pep getting rid of Ronaldinho, didn't back it up with results and failed in the EL qualification round. Laughing

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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:49 pm

Why 'whom' and not 'who' in the thread title?

Maybe because it's short for "If not Martino, whom are we going to over-critizise next season"? hmm
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Post by CBarca Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:09 am

Well, we didn't face a Bayern.

It wouldn't have surprised me too much for us to lose something like 7-0 against Bayern in their top form this year, we just faced Atletico Madrid instead, who are never going to give us a beating like that because they will suffice going through on away goals or winning by one, and they aren't Bayern, either.

That's getting into hypotheticals though.

What are we looking at? Likely losing the league, failing to get to the semi's of the CL (which is something we've at least been doing even when we don't win it), and we lost the CDR to a Madrid team that we beat twice this season and are not really that good at all.

Was this going to happen due to failures that preceded this season? Yes. Danyjr had a fairly good post iirc about management failures (which are obvious to all)--Martino doesn't deserve all of the blame. Instead the lions share must go to the likes of Rosell, Zubizarreta and company.

Martino has been put in a tough position. Does that mean we give him the benefit of the doubt, and give him another season? Yes we should change management (like Zubi), but do we also need to change the coach? I think in moments like this, a change in management is necessary, however--despite that--Martino hasn't shown enough to be given another season. As Dani points out, and I agree with, the team has seen little progression since the beginning of the season, if any. That combined with the fact that we're likely going to end the season with a single mickey mouse cup is enough for me to say that he doesn't deserve another season.

As for saying he's a smart guy...well if he was, don't you think he would have changed the lineup in big games? He hasn't shown any willingness to change now despite failures, so why should we think he will in the future?

Change is certainly needed in management, but that doesn't excuse Tata. Are the options slim? Yes...that is where the problem lies, which is what this thread addresses.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:42 am

Italian press now claiming we are interested in Rudi Garcia. An interesting name on the very least.
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Post by CBarca Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:35 am

I don't watch enough of Roma to comment. Can someone inform me (or this thread) of his general ideals and how he would fit in at Barca.

You watch Roma, BC. At least sometimes, what is your opinion on Rudi Garcia taking over here?
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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:31 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:Why 'whom' and not 'who' in the thread title?

Maybe because it's short for "If not Martino, whom are we going to over-critizise next season"? hmm

Oh I am sorry, perhaps we should instead criticise the best coach in the world for winning all the games?
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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:36 pm

Fußball wrote:
The Franchise wrote:That's just the superficial look at it, for me.

The team has shown no progress from the start of the season till now, the team has not absorbed his ideas and progressed. In fact, the team is going backwards and looks completely lost and confused.

All the teams with new coaches, the ones that have done well, have done so with the team gradually improving and taking on a greater understanding of what the coach wants.

On top of that, Martino's blindness/fear which resulted in that "big game line up" was an incredible mistake and it was further compounded by him playing that same line up, game after game, despite it obviously failing.

I get what your saying, the lack of alternatives out there worry me also...but lowering the standards by saying at least he didnt lose 7-0 Bayern is not an acceptable reason to keep him on.

As I said before, I would give him another year...but that opinion changed when he time after time played that stupid line up with no change...that was it for me. You dont get another year after showing such poor vision.


I imagine next season he would correct most of the mistake he committed this season. Like the "big game lineup". He strikes me as an honest and intelligent man. He already said a few days ago he would have done a bit differently in hindsight and started with Alexis. He doesn't strike me completely clueless. He has now gotten used to the squad and will probably not be intimidated by the big names (if that ever happened to begin with).

Ultimately the alternatives are de Boer and Luis Enrique. Valverde clearly declined with a big fat "no" (actually 2 noes to make it very clear even for the thickest). De Boer is promising but not a proven mesiah, just another gamble. He's coaching a bunch of kids and playing tippy-tappy football in a 3th rate league. He's one for the future though. Luis Enrique? Lucho is a very poor man's wannabe Guardiola. Tried to get rid of Totti immediately after joining Roma but unlike Pep getting rid of Ronaldinho, didn't back it up with results and failed in the EL qualification round. Laughing

Why would you imagine that? I dont have any belief he would do that. How can I?

How could he of not seen it sooner? How did it take half a dozen games to figure out what wasnt truly working after 2? Heck, even 1.

I dont know where the confidence he will do things so differently comes from.

Proven? I dont care about if De Boer is proven. My only problem with him is his question CL record with Ajax and everytime I watch them (other than against us) they look a bit niave tactically.

And to be honest, its not even relevant how good the alternatives are...I would rather take the risk than keep Martino. Neither coach will do anything if major changes arent made to the squad, but I have already seen Martino and am thinking...no thank you. I am at least willing to see what someone else can do.

At the bare minimum, De Boer would have us playing better looking football and very likely use the young players. Better than Martino has offered so far.
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Post by Onyx Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:06 pm

I think Barca fans are looking for someone like Pep, but there is no one like him. There's no one proven in the top leagues who plays pure possession football like him.

However someone who plays similar to him has to be looked at. Rodgers and Martinez both advocate possession football, but with their teams they sit back at times and are versatile. However do they have the players to play pure possession football currently?

Appointing someone unproven like Pep was a risk, so there's nothing wrong with Barca taking a risk when appointing a new manager right now.

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Post by jibers Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:14 pm

Read the whole thread. I am with Dani on this. Getting a counter attcking manager, or a manager that cannot use these players in the best way possible is just dumb. Saying that they should change their style at the top means it will be harder to integrate youth players. To use counter attacking, you need to be able to win the ball from deep and have good positioning, something these Barcelona players do not have in them. They lose too many 50/50. Saying they should play counter attack just lacks common football sense. Tata is just clueless. Didn't play attacking football and didn't bring anything to the team. Kept playing players in wrong positions negating their effectiveness. I think Paco Jemez would be a good fit. The problem here is that the club has so many problems off the pitch that are affecting the team. They have no strategy going forward. I think Pochettino would have been great tbh, great football, understands the culture in Spain. A problem any manager will have is the contol of these players. If Guardiola could not control these guys felt he felt he has reached his end, I don't think anyone can. I think these guys have reached the end. The players are too powerful.

The Bela Guttman rule is very applicable here, except the players are in charge. Except you get a guy like van Gaal, who is a no go, Barcelona are going to be stuck for a while. They still have a great team, but the period where the club is unified from top to bottom to follow a particular strategy is gone, and it won't be back for a while.
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Post by kantian Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:38 pm

First things first they need to completely overhaul management then decide the best way to handle the stagnant personnel. This squad needs to be turned over. Cut some fat off the meat and make some money in the process. Purchase a GK, 2 CBs, MF, and a f**king forward that can latch onto the end of all the crosses. Honestly I like Martino and I hope they keep him. He had a rough season but he inherited a squad that was failing in Guardiolas last season, but his counterattacking prowess is what this team needs. He also installed a plan B which is spreading the field out, getting strikers one on one with CBs, and crossing the ball in. If we had a true central striker it would be much more effective.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:56 am

Crossing is a fail tactic, for us. And I dont understand why anyone would advocate it.

I havent counted, but even the teams who use it often and are known to do it well....It takes I would say like 10 crosses, to get on the end of like 2.

And I would imagine not even 1 of those 2 end in a goal. It probably takes more chances than that.

Would having 1 guy who excels at getting on the end of crosses even work? 1 single target vs the entire defence? Its not like other players get in the box. I wish they did.

If we want to add that dimension to our play, it cant be just sign one guy, no matter how good (lets say Falcao, one of the best at getting on the end of crosses) and lets bang away with crosses. It wont work at all. You need numbers in the box to actually be effective, which is a tactical problem.
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Post by harhar11 Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:23 am

The Franchise wrote:Crossing is a fail tactic, for us. And I dont understand why anyone would advocate it.

I havent counted, but even the teams who use it often and are known to do it well....It takes I would say like 10 crosses, to get on the end of like 2.

And I would imagine not even 1 of those 2 end in a goal. It probably takes more chances than that.

Would having 1 guy who excels at getting on the end of crosses even work? 1 single target vs the entire defence?  Its not like other players get in the box. I wish they did.

If we want to add that dimension to our play, it cant be just sign one guy, no matter how good (lets say Falcao, one of the best at getting on the end of crosses) and lets bang away with crosses. It wont work at all. You need numbers in the box to actually be effective, which is a tactical problem.

Indeed, Atletico v Chelsea and Real Madrid v Bayer are 2 perfect example of that..

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Post by danyjr Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:07 am

The Franchise wrote:Crossing is a fail tactic, for us. And I dont understand why anyone would advocate it.

I havent counted, but even the teams who use it often and are known to do it well.
Crossing: One of the Game's Big Problems
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Post by futbol Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:27 am

I don't disagree with the crossing thing. But is Pep now a failed coach?

Bayern vs. Real Madrid:

Attempted crosses: 40
Successful crosses: 10

Mandzukic was crossing from the wing to midfielders. Is Pep tactically inept? If Barca under Martino played like that we wouldn't hear the end of it.

Sometimes you have to look at the players and not only the coach. The coach can give a template but he isn't controlling the players via joystick once they're on the pitch.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:43 am

Bayern didnt play well. I am fairly sure going into the game they didnt plan on making so many crosses.

They played the ball so slowly and took so many touches, they quickly found themselves out of options and with no 1 v 1 situations...when this happens, they probe, and probe..going nowhere...and in the end, settle with a lame cross.

I dont see how is this related to Martino. In theory Bayern actually have players for that, it could of actually worked...Muller almost scored even.

But they have some aerial threat and on top of that, they have players who win the second balls.

We dont have any of that.

But as I said, I am quite sure going into the game nobody at Bayern wanted that. And even doing so without first probing the middle.

Martino's Barcelona were making many crosses, not just one game...but often.
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Post by futbol Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:16 am

Sorry, I don't accept that Martino's gameplan is to make crosses. We didn't do any of that against City in 2 legs or Real Madrid 2 times in La Liga. It only happened notably against Real Sociedad CdR 1st leg at home and Real Madrid CdR final. The same excuse that applies to Pep should also apply to Martino then.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:28 am

I dont know if its his gameplan, but that's what the team ends up doing under him because his true idea's are not clear at all. And it happened more than once or twice, it happened half a dozen times.

And that's just the crosses..what about that disaster game where we had less possession than Rayo? Or Ajax, where they looked more like us than we did?

What Martino did was not just a one off, brought on by our team struggling against a tough opponent..like Bayern and Madrid.

The fact we are debating what his intentions are say it all really...we should know by now what we are trying to do out there.

And comparing it to Bayern is superficial. I mean, aside from what I said above..Bayern actually have players who excell in wide areas, they have targets...if Bayern wanted to cross the ball, it seems reasonably viable with the players they have. Wingers and targets.

We have no wingers and we have even less targets.

I dont see the correlation here...Pep is the coach of Bayern, he has them doing different things than he had our team doing here. This quite normal...their threatening players are different.

Furthermore, you posted there that they did 40 crosses and 10 found their target? Thats a much bigger ratio than I imagined. No way we would achieve that.

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Post by futbol Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:51 pm

Desaster game against Rayo? You mean the one where Rayo had most of their possession in their own half and lost 0-4 at home?

This is the sort of mentality that keeps Barca from evolving. Possession is a byproduct, it shouldn't be the aim. Controlling space is as legit as controlling the ball. We would have actually done better if we stayed with what Martino was doing in the first half of the season before Xavi apparently had this conversation with Martino and we reverted back to passing to death.

First half of the season (with Messi injured for a while, with a fit Messi it would have been even better):

Played: 19
Won: 16
Draw: 2
Loss: 1
Goals scored: 53
Goals conceded: 12

Second half of the season (Xavi coaching):

Played: 15
Won: 10
Draw: 1
Loss: 4
Goals scored: 41
Goals conceded: 16


Fußball wrote:Bayern - Barca: 4-0, possession: 34 % - 66 %
Atletico - Barca: 1-0, possession: 29 % - 71 %
Bayern - Dortmund: 0-3, possession: 71 % - 29 %

Add to the list:

Real Madrid - Bayern: 1-0, possession: 28 % - 72 %

Possession football is suffering hard. It only works when the opponent tries to challenge you for the ball so gaps open up and you can pass it around. When a team keeps a disciplined 2 banks of 4 defensive block and breaks with speed you go nowhere with tippy-tappy and automatically end up crossing. Seen this 8489304 times recently.

Besides, the Barca squad doesn't even have many players who can pull this style of anymore. With Xavi being 34 we have more players who thrive in space (Neymar, Messi, Alexis, Fabregas) than players who can break 2 banks of 4 with patient possession football (Messi, Iniesta).

Obviously you will disagree.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:13 pm

Yeah thats one, it looked like shit. I dont care what the result was, it belied what was happening out there. It was a poor performance, the type of result which masks actual problems. That game was not repeatable at all.

The process was a disaster and we were lucky it was Rayo, not a team with actual offensive weapons..because what happened when we faced a team with a similar plan and with just a few more weapons?

Ajax made us look like crap and the result was a loss.

Your list of numbers and non sense about Xavi coaching mean nothing to me.

According to numbers like this, Tito is better than Pep...obviously he is not.


Fact is, when it mattered Martino's plan came up short. The reason Xavi (who wasnt alone in the complaint, it came from fans too did it not?) said anything because we was struggling despite the results.

Your notion about a specific type of football suffering is rubbish imo. You (whichever team, not us specifically) can win games with various different style..your cant justify a certain style with one good result, nor can you dismiss it with one bad one.

People cling on to a way of football when its a success, much like when we dominated and lots of people wanted and did copy elements of our game...but changing to this supposed new (its not new) style of play every time there is a new winner is a huge mistake, because its never sustainable.

It's just short sighted to think this way.

Tell me, what success has Barca had playing a different way? This way has been successful for years and years, the origins dating back possibly as far as the 50's...and now, all of a sudden, it cant work? Or does the teams who play it have to win every single year to justify it? Of course not.

Its amazing to me how people blame the style of play because we arent having sucess..when actually, the style of play is only being confirmed to being the correct one..because when it's done incorrectly, we suffer...and when we try something else (whatever Martino is trying to do) we suffer even more.

Players who thrive in space? Cesc doesnt thrive in space...when everything is fast and it's up and down, his brutual lack of pace is exposed. Neymar can play in any style, I dismiss that. Messi can play in any style, when he actually tries. Alexis doesnt do much with the ball, whatever we play...his use is clearly his off ball movements.

So yes, obviously I will disagree.

Overall if we get away from this obvious disagreement in way to see the game.

I ask you, what is Martino's idea for us to play like?

Because I have no idea what he is trying to do.
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Post by futbol Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:44 pm

Ajax made us look like crap because we played with 36 year old Puyol at rightback and Montoya at leftback + Messi, Busquets and Valdes missing + meaningless group stage game after we were already qualified.

The games you are quoting here as proof of Martino's failed tactics are not comprehensible for me. Especially not the Rayo Vallecano game. Here is a 15 minute HD highlight which covers every chance and half chance. Barca could have won this game 9-1. Rayo created nothing except one cross at the beginning. Laughing Your criticism about that game is everything that is wrong with Barca right now. Seriously.



What is Martino trying to do? He is trying to instill additional weapons like counterattacks and more verticality to the possession template. It hasn't fully clicked yet because neither did he have any signings nor a proper preseason and some people are obviously interfering because they just want to keep the status quo where they are comfortable in. 34 year old Xavi has to retire or leave or whatever. Not start every single big game. Give Martino a proper centerback, someone with an engine and physicality to replace Xavi and a proper striker upfront instead of Pedrolexis, let Messi also fully recuperate from his injuries and get his head clear after the World Cup and we can only improve from here on, not further decline. Getting Luis Enrique will be a failure. A big one.

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