Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by futbol on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:51 am

Marcelo is the worst "fullback" you'll ever see at this level. A total clown. I'm watching futbol since pre Di Stefano era when River's La Máquina was dominating and I've never seen such a liability before. If you are playing against teams which you are expected to beat and which sit back his offensive contribution might come in handy. But against proper opponents?









Laughing

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by julias on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:39 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:http://www.zonalmarking.net/2014/07/09/germany-7-1-brazil-germany-record-a-historic-thrashing/

Do you guys think he's being fair with Marcelo? Basically blames him for the entire defeat... seems excessive to me and calls Luiz blameless for the first 45 minutes which I think is a huge exaggeration, especially if you review what he was doing in some of the goals.


The guy is spot on imo Luiz was bad but I think some of the reasons he put for Luiz are believable and Luiz did some good things in an attacking sense (I know I know he's a CB) but still Luiz had a horrible performance.

Marcelo was trash and has been trash in every single game he's played in this tournament. I cannot fathom how many times he got caught out of position in such a short period, that added to the fact he learnt absolutely nothing from it and carried on for the rest of the game show how bad he is. Added to that his senseless attacking has created nothing all tournament.

I agree with the above poster and said it before in one of the threads that got closed on Tuesday, he is one of the worst full backs you will see at the top level. You can fully see why he was dropped for the CL final and only brought on when Atletico were knackered, Ancelotti didn't want his senseless positioning to be exposed by a high pressing, energetic team in such an important match.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:46 am

the fullbacks must have been given permission or order to roam forward by Scolari though?

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by julias on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:58 am

@Hapless_Hans wrote:the fullbacks must have been given permission or order to roam forward by Scolari though?


Yea I would think so but not to that degree because Maicon was not caught that much.
Even the way he provides width is weird, he loves getting high up the pitch and dribbling infield onto the edge of the box instead of linking with a one two and getting to the byline. Another factor that makes it hard to get in position when you lose the ball.

I think the Germans saw how bad his positioning was and flooded that side for the first 30 mins to get in behind and it worked.

Even at 5-0 he was still flying forward to the point where he was one of the most advanced players Laughing 

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by elitedam on Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:01 am

I've been wrong about many things (Scolari being one of them) but I was right about Marcelo. He doesn't even know what defending is. Unless you're playing a 3-5-2 and there's an extra body to cover for him then he's a huge liability. But all people talked about was his creativity.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by VivaStPauli on Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:31 am

Yeah, I have to mostly agree. While I liked that Marcelo was one of the few Brazilians trying to still do things even when they were being thrashed, he criminally neglected his flank.

For most of the match, he was running around like a headless chicken, and while I think it is a good think that he ventured forward, I am pretty sure Scolari assumed that Marcelo would also come back, after losing possession, which he hardly ever did.

You can attack all you want as a fullback, but you still have to run back after. Marcelo didn't.

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by BusterLfc on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:07 am

@BarcaLearning wrote:Any I still dont totally think dropping Alves completely was the way... MAicon is a beast when he is in form...but Alves is such a big impact for the team also.... just another thing Scolari didnt get completely right which he needed to...
Already told you that Alves was dropped for being crap during the whole WC and because of his shit defending.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by BusterLfc on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:08 am

Marcelo is a joke LB, he goes bombing forward and when he loses the ball he just walks his way back to his position but in the meanwhile that gap has already been used.

Huge mistake in not taking Filipe Luis.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:57 am

Marcelo is a fantastic player, but this untamed attaking spirit needs be kept in check, and I guess that's up to the manager to make clear or develop workarounds.

Of course you can have your fullback attacking, and then it can always happen that you're caught - no full back no matter how hard working can be back instantly to prevent a counter.

But then you have to get backup. Gustavo knows how to do this, he was often busy on the left challenging Müller, but then of course the other midfielder have to provide cover for him too.
Fernandinho didn't get the memo.

Plus as viva says Marcelo often didn't even bother running back, so you have Müller with Gustavo or Dante and then loads of space all around.  
Müller could find a player at the edge of the box, or even if blocked we would get the second ball.
Then on top Luiz was somewhere ahead on the pitch too lol.
Add to that Fernandinho losing the ball 25 meters ahead of goal, it was ugly.

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:19 pm

However, Marcelo's roaming wasn't directly responsible for the goals though, it was responsible for us constantly getting into good positions, getting throw ins/corners in positions from where the goals came as well.
The corner before the 0:1, the throw in before the 0:2 which was due to a mistake by Fernandinho.
0:3 Hulk let Lahm run and cross, 0:4 was another Fernandinho mistake.

So on third thought it's probably wrong again to single out Marcelo, collective defensive failure.

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Ganso on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:35 pm

Wouldn't even get called up for the next few games if I were the manager.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Zealous on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:56 pm

If you're expecting Marcelo to attack AND help defend you're going to have a hard time. Ask him to do one or the other and be sure to accept the consequences. When it works Marcelo can help win any game, when it doesn't it could get bad.

It works for Madrid because Ramos and Alonso can cover when he goes forward, and even that level of understanding came after a lot of growing pains. In general expecting a player to be two places at once is not realistic.

The issue is why he felt the need to push up so high in the first place especially after being very solid for most of the tournament (he shut down Cuardado in the QF for example) and when you see scrubs like Hulk, Oscar and Fred it then becomes clear. David Luiz had the same issue and it was probably worse because he's supposed to be in the center. My question is how the chit can you play so many DM's, so many work horse players and still have no one covering? lol

It was clear that something was fundamentally wrong with how Brazil as a team approached this game. Can't look past Scolari here.

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Pedram on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:07 pm

Fußball wrote:Marcelo is the worst "fullback" you'll ever see at this level. A total clown. I'm watching futbol since pre Di Stefano era when River's La Máquina was dominating and I've never seen such a liability before. If you are playing against teams which you are expected to beat and which sit back his offensive contribution might come in handy. But against proper opponents?









Laughing

Marcelo. Proud

And some people think he's better than Coentrao. :facepalm:

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Collblanc on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:11 pm

Marcelo Laughing got me deceived into thinking he was one of the best LB's in the world
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Onyx on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:00 pm

Kroos, player of the semis stats:

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by rwo power on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:13 pm

@BarcaLearning wrote:Muller has always been clever

I think someone posted this before, but it doesn't hurt posting it again - this comic strip perfectly sums up Thomas Müller: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/die-fussballgoetter-mysterium-mueller-1.1641754

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Robespierre on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:26 pm

We can surely criticize Scolari  for some players not called up , because he called up Fred etc, he has many responsabilities for this flop, but the problem is deepest than Scolari , and this is the real serious problem for Brazil.
I mean, what is happening to Brazil? where is finished the Brazil ? why doesn't the Brazil produce top players anymore?
Last generation of Brazilians has produced (so I mean players from 27  years in under , so I can't count the various Kaka Maicon Alves etc ) as top just  Neymar and Thiago Silva.
The rest hardly can be really worthy to play with Brazil.
For a nation with 200 mln of ppl , pentacampeao, full football lovers etc is nothing. For a nation who won WCs with 5 N°10 as starters is nothing.

I remember after WC 2010 in Italy some used saying that our decline could be traced in the fact that  you can't see more same number of 'children playing to football for  street, because the new generation is less interested to football  with all the modern comforts .
Brazil is having an unprecedented economic expansion, the new Brasilians are not so different from Europeans for lifestyle while before they had the ball as only fun, players as Ronaldo grown to play in favelas to play only football , because they couldn't do other , probably it can be a forced reasoning hmm but accordingly I wonder if the decline of Brazil can depend from it , if it can depend from this change in the social fabric of Brazil, a richer country and therefore more open to new horizons, a country less interested in football for other distractions..

Basically the same battles against the WC in Brazil can be a testimony.
Imo it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago, all Brazilians would have loved a WC in own country without being worried for  expenditure of money ( ah I approve this protests, Italy 90 was destructive for Italy) . This  because there is' a new social consciousness now (result of a most developed country) . Brazil has changed 360 degrees.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Ganso on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:50 pm

The thing is we have produced some great players recently who should normally still be playing in this WC.the likes of Adriano,Kaka,Ronaldinho,Robinho etc are all around 30 and should still be up to the task alongside the younger players like Neymar.Germany started Klose,Lahm and Schweinsteiger vs us, I wish some of our goat 30 year olds were still playing high level football like them but they just aren't.There still is hope though as we have the likes of Rafinha(from Barca),Coutinho,Lucas,Casemiro,Marquinhos etc. coming up

These meh generations happen every once in a while,like in the late 80's for us.even then, we still managed to reach a WC semi final with this shitty team.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by The Franchise on Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:02 am

Agree. Brazil have lost talents earlier than they should have in the attack and it isnt helping the options.

Adriano if he wasnt an overweight drunk could have been an old Brazilian version of old Drogba (minus the talismanic personality) coming off the bench for Brazil still today. He is 32, he still should be relevant.

If Pato wasnt injured, surely he would of become a much better 9 than Fred.

Surely Ronaldinho and Kaka, not as starters, but if they didnt fade away with injury and early decline, at 34 and 32 should still be relevant as players. Dunga was still starting as the key midfielder at 34 years old in 98 and Bebeto at more than 35 was still scored 3 goals in the same tournament.

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Robespierre on Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:19 am

Indeed Brazilians players finish all when they reach the 30 years so I have considered it.
It is always been so , since the GOAT Socrates who was a flop in Fiorentina in 85 when he was 30, or just thinking last Brazilians .

Probably Cafu was the only longeval Brazilian in history .

Basically the great Brazilians are GOAT in period before of 30 years ,no doubts about it , I will thanks always the Brazl to have given some great players to my club since Jair ,  but they drop before than others, because they love "enjoying the life", not all so professional ...as Milanista you can remind for these things Robinho , Ronaldinho , i can remind Maicon etc. .Ronaldo never trained, but he was the best of all equally . But even he finished when he was only 30. Dinho declined when he was 28 .... I was also sure that Roma legend Emerson would have been a flop to Milan for same reason in 2006 Very Happy
Dani Alves is 31 , not 34-35. And yet...

This Brazil hasn't only scrubs of course, it will be always a good NT ,  even now it is good National Team , but simply it is not the Brazil  as all the world has admired in past. So I wonder if there are reasons behind this recession or it is just an unlucky period
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by elitedam on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:41 am

Like it was previously said, it's a combination of our most talented players declining earlier than expected and a shitty generation.

Having a shitty generation happens to everyone and it's happening to us now. Look at the 90/94 teams. Remember, winning the WC causes people to forget a lot of problems.

I don't know why our players are declining so early. I'm not entirely sure it's just one thing. Adriano is insane and gave in to his many vices. Ronaldinho decided partying was more fun and gave up on his career. Kaka was destroyed by injuries. While I have no idea what happened to Robinho. He doesn't seem like the partying type. It just looks like he gradually forgot how to play.
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:57 am

David Luiz, Dante, Thiago Silva, Alves, Neymar, Oscar, Coutinho... my god what a shitty generation.

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Pedram on Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:43 am

Out of that list only Silva and Neymar are really elite. Luiz is inconsistent, Alves same as Luiz, Oscar aka the most uncreative number 10 Brazil have ever had.

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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by elitedam on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:17 am

You can't compare Coutinho, Oscar, David Luiz, and Dante to Ronaldo, Kaka, Ronaldinho and so on and so on. rofl
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by farfan on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:01 am

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/GER-BRA_2002-06-30.svg/300px-GER-BRA_2002-06-30.svg.png

dat team :facepalm:

i don't remember good old metzelder in 2002 tbh Laughing
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Re: Semi-Final: Brazil v Germany

Post by Arquitescu on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:08 am

Will not write my full thoughts as I type on a phone, yet Kakà is far from a finished player as displayed by his season for Milan in which he was our best player. Injuries may have ravaged his physiology yet the return to Milan represented the mental augmentation needed to show that he was a player in crossroads of evolution as a footballer.

At times he was frustrating yet his consistent presence, creativity, completeness and big game impact warranted a call up, if not a start ahead of Oscar who has the cumulative creativity of a ceiling fan.

Too bad Kakà chose to demote his final emers by going to MLS, as he still had much to offer.

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