World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by rwo power on Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:10 pm

@RealGunner wrote:if Messi wants it, he will get it.
I just stumbled over a nice quote by Jean-Paul Sartre which is nicely fitting here: "In football everything is complicated by the presence of the opposite team."

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Le Samourai on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:28 pm

If Argentina wins, there will be blood. Straight up. Brasilia, which is supposed to be pretty damn gentrified was on the verge of huge fights. Argentina travelling fanbase is trolling hard everywhere they go, it's a scene.

Good Luck to those who dare to go to Copacabana and the Maracana on Sunday.


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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by elitedam on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:44 pm

It might be even worse if Argentina loses. I don't think their fans will go home quietly.
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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Adit on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:48 pm

Argentina winning will be like Pakistan winning Cricket world cup in India....unthinkable. Players will be for ever crucified until they leave the country Laughing

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by El Gunner on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:58 pm

1-1 after normal time.
Argentina to grab one on a counter attack after the Germans go in search of a winner in ET.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by VivaStPauli on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:11 pm

Okay, just so I can have my prediction out there, in case it actually happens:

Very tight match, with both teams sitting incredibly deep, similar to the Argentina-Netherlands match; both unwilling to open up.
Messi will be utterly marked out of the match, with Argentina in turn clogging the midfield up hard, making it nearly impossible to release the speedy Özil and Müller with precise passes.

At the end of the first half, Müller receives the ball in mid-sprint from a neat Kroos finish, and gets axed in the box by Demichelis, Rizzoli wrongly does not give a penalty, though he does give a corner.
Kroos circles the ball neatly onto the head of the onrushing Klose, who scores the matches first goal in the 43rd minute.

After that Argentina do not open up, having been warned from the Brazil match what that might do, and also not wanting to repeat the 4-0 thumping in 2010, so they sit deep, still, waiting patiently, until finally, they get the opportunity to go level in the 64th minute. Mascherano releases Messi with a diagonal ball, who dribbles past Schweinsteiger and Höwedes, before being tackled by Boateng. The clearance, however, lands straight at Lavezzis feet who fires straight past the onrushing Lahm and Hummels, leaving Neuer no chance to parry.

Argentina go level.

Though immediately after the kick-off, the Germans unleash Schürrle on the left flank, who cuts the ball inside sharply from the byline, where Schweinsteiger flicks the ball towards the penalty spot, tunneling Demichelis, where the onrushing Müller converts, while tripping, awkwardly with the tip of his left boot.

After that, Germany cynically run down the clock for the last 30 minutes, which results in Gago getting sent off after he spits into Khediras hair, Germany win the world cup, Brazil erects a massive Müller statue, thankful that Argentina have been stopped.

The end.


Last edited by VivaStPauli on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by rwo power on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:37 pm

Müller versus Messi in numbers
Spoiler:
On track for a second consecutive adidas Golden Boot, Germany’s Thomas Muller is the leading light in Joachim Low’s side. With his fifth goal of these finals against Brazil, he took his place among a fabulous five of his countrymen (Miroslav Klose, Gerd Muller, Jurgen Klinsmann and Helmut Rahn) to reach double figures at the FIFA World Cup™.

There is one undisputed star for Argentina. The four-time FIFA Ballon d’Or winner Lionel Messi hopes to take his place among the pantheon of World Cup greats with an Argentina win in the Maracana. Will it be La Albiceleste’s No10 or Die Nationalmannschaft’s No13 who take the honours? FIFA.com takes a look at the numbers behind the stars ahead of their World Cup Final showdown.

Height
Thomas Muller: 186cm
Lionel Messi: 169cm
Muller towers above Messi, standing at a little over 6ft tall, and he is also above the average height for players at Brazil 2014 (182cm). The diminutive Argentinian maestro famously took growth hormones on his arrival at Barcelona in his early teens, but still grew to just 5ft 7ins. This makes him two inches taller than his idol and Argentina’s last legendary No10 Diego Maradona, who knows all about handling the biggest of pressures despite the shortest of frames. “Is the pressure of carrying the hopes of a nation overpowering?” Maradona asked the Times of India recently. "No-one knows it better than Messi.”

Date of birth
Thomas Muller: 13 September 1989 (24 years old)
Lionel Messi: 24 June 1987 (27 years old)
Incredibly, Muller made his Germany debut just three months before South Africa 2010 kicked off and, at the age of 20, picked up the adidas Golden Boot and Hyundai Young Player Award at that tournament. This time around, he brings a wealth of experience, having won most major trophies in the domestic game with Bayern Munich. Almost three years his senior, Messi is playing at his third World Cup, having made his international debut in 2005. It was widely discussed before Brazil 2014 that Messi, who will turn 31 at the next finals, is in the prime of his career and will never have a better opportunity to truly shine on the global stage.

Squad number
Thomas Muller: 13
Lionel Messi: 10
Germany’s No13 this year will be hoping to follow in the footsteps of his namesake Gerd, who not only won the Golden Boot but also won the World Cup during his time as the main man in the German line-up. Thomas was handed the jersey after previous incumbent Michael Ballack was injured in the build-up to South Africa 2010. He relished having the shirt on his back, with that adidas Golden Boot in his first global finals. Messi also feels the weight of expectation due to previous occupants of his chosen number. Diego Maradona and the current Albiceleste No10 are the topic of much discussion as to which is the top player to have worn the coveted jersey. Maradona holds the advantage in the eyes of plenty of Argentines due to his World Cup win in 1986. Can Messi match him this year?

Record in Brazil 2014 qualifying
Thomas Muller: 4 goals in 10 games
Lionel Messi: 10 goals in 14 games
Germany scored the highest number of goals in European qualifying, with 36 shared out between ten different scorers. Muller was joined on four goals by Mario Gotze, Miroslav Klose and Andre Schurrle while Marco Reus and Mesut Ozil were the only Germans who scored more than Muller. Messi got the second-highest tally of goals in the entire Brazil 2014 qualifying campaign with only Deon McCaulay, Robin van Persie and Luis Suarez bagging more qualifying strikes than the prolific Barça man. It was no surprise that La Pulga grabbed a brace in the 5-2 win over Paraguay that saw his side book their ticket to Brazil.

Brazil 2014 goals (up to and including the semi-final)
Thomas Muller: 5
Lionel Messi: 4
There was a significantly-sized monkey on Messi’s back going into the tournament. He had not scored a World Cup goal in eight years since his sole strike at the 2006 finals, in which he became the youngest Argentinian World Cup goalscorer. The impatient Maracana crowd watched on in his side’s opening Brazil 2014 game against Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Messi delivered after the hour mark, driving past several defenders before smashing in off the post. He then scored one of the most memorable goals of the tournament, a long-range curler which broke down Iran’s stubborn defence. On top of that pair, he grabbed a brace in his side’s final Group F game against Nigeria which included a sublime free-kick.

Muller started with a bang, grabbing a hat-trick in his side’s opening 4-0 victory against Portugal. The devastating attacking performance by Germany set the tone for the rest of the tournament, and Muller was at the forefront, converting a penalty, lashing home a left-footed effort and poking home from close range. He then grabbed the decisive strike in his side’s final Group G match against USA before getting the ball rolling in Belo Horizonte, scoring his side’s first in their 7-1 demolition of Brazil.
Source: http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/y=2014/m=7/news=muller-versus-messi-in-numbers-2403705.html

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Robespierre on Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:24 pm

of course I will support Argentina for many reasons , definitely less rivalry, it wouldn't reach us for title won unlike of Germany , they've Inter players too (although benchers) . Anyway if Germany wins it's okay, it would be one of most deserved victories ever tbh.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by RealGunner on Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:51 am

According to @GoalArgentina, Angel Di Maria pulled up in pain after his final training session, and will not start in the final.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Beautiful Football on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:37 am

Sabella Should call former Italian Coach and player for some tips to beat Germany, after all Italian are German antidote. It will make things easier for Argentina and greater chance of wining the world cup. :coffee:

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Raptorgunner on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:57 am

Germany.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152542989884556&fref=nf

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Cruijf on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:22 am

@Raptorgunner wrote:Germany.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152542989884556&fref=nf


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by dostoevsky on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:45 am

@Beautiful Football wrote:Sabella Should call former Italian Coach and player for some tips to beat Germany, after all Italian are German antidote. It will make things easier for Argentina and greater chance of wining the world cup. :coffee:


Napolitano should just award Italian citizenship to the entire squad before the match, that should do the trick :coffee:

@messixaviesta wrote:dost, great post. I agree almost completely. Comebacks are what is needed to set the world cup alight in the later stages and that has been sadly missing in this world cup. Some of the key matches have almost completely depended on which side scores first just as you said. In fact the side scoring first in the final will have one hand on the trophy so to say. In previous world cups as in club football a one goal lead can often mean nothing but in this world cup a one goal lead is like the match almost won. If one team goes behind this being a world cup final they should give everything to get an equalizer but then they wouldn't want to be disgraced like the Brazil 1-7 either. So will they still be cautious? Maybe a bit of both sentiments will dominate their actions at that point.

The Cruyff parallel is coming to my mind a bit too often. If Messi ends up on the losing side then it will become the reality. However Cruyff played in only one world cup and he was the outstanding player of that world cup while as far as Messi is concerned you just need to skim through the various posts to realize that the opinion is very mixed as to how brilliant he has been in this tournament. So I can see a Messi defeat as clearly inferior to Cruyff's. A Messi victory though takes him ahead to a pedestal with Pele and Maradona. That may sound funny but the difference between winning and losing is that huge in football as in life.

For long I have been drawing the parallel with Maradona 1986 but one poster on this forum said something that I have been unable to forget. He said this is not Maradona 1986 but Maradona 1990. Messi has not been as brilliant as Maradona was in 1986. Instead he has been more like Maradona 1990 - decisive in key moments and inspiring a very average team to move ahead not just with the goals and creations but also the confidence that his presence gives to the entire team, all this while not being fully fit and not really playing like the magical footballer we know him to be. However only the result can actually decide this. It's 86 or 90 but which one we will only know at the end of the world cup final.

Thanks jd. Whilst the 7-1 blowout might be seen as a warning for those opening up to chase a game, it remains a freak result that I do not think teams will pay great attention to. Brazil's approach from the very start was fundamentally flawed which exacerbated the effects of conceding. Even so, the lack of leadership and composure displayed by a team which had not yet been asked to respond to adversity against a top side before was unusual. This Argentina side has also not yet had to deal with the pressures of being behind against strong opposition, however I do not think the team will deviate from their game plan unless time begins to run out. I think we are more likely to see a game such as Germany had in the quarter final against France in which both sides risked little and Deschamps waited until deep into the second half before trying his hand.

As for the issue of Maradona's World Cup performances, I personally do not consider it a deal breaker however many are invested in the argument of who is the greatest of all time. What would truly be more demonstrative of a player's qualities? To have Messi score a brilliant brace and dominate the game but end up on the losing side or to score a penalty to win the World Cup in a game in which others starred? Even in 1986, it can be argued that Maradona's impact was at its greatest early on in the tournament as he was relatively fatigued by the end of the tournament, having done so much to get Argentina to the final. I think it's a reasonable assessment to venture that Messi will never have another opportunity such as this to shine at international level though. To defeat a German side that is now riding upon incredible hype, the nemesis of Maradona's days and in the home of their arch rivals would be a very poetic way to replicate Maradona's achievement and enhance his own legacy.

Also viva's description of a likely Mueller winner is hilariously accurate. Laughing
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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Onyx on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:40 am

Romero WC stats:

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Valkyrja on Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:28 pm

If Ozil performs, Germany will win.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by junkyard on Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:42 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:If Ozil performs, Germany will win.


But Germany had won without Oezil's any noteworthy performance.
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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Valkyrja on Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:43 pm

@junkyard wrote:
@Valkyrja wrote:If Ozil performs, Germany will win.


But Germany had won without Oezil's any noteworthy performance.


I didn't say that they won't win without him at his best. But if he performs, I'm pretty sure that they'll win

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by VivaStPauli on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:01 pm

@dostoevsky wrote:
Also viva's description of a likely Mueller winner is hilariously accurate. Laughing


I am but a humble prophet.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:42 pm

Viva I'm wondering how you're accounting for Argentina to play Pastore. Will the Argentine FA send a charter flight to Paris to pick him up?

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by VivaStPauli on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:44 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Viva I'm wondering how you're accounting for Argentina to play Pastore. Will the Argentine FA send a charter flight to Paris to pick him up?


Heh, I just came into the thread to correct that. I meant to type Gago, dunno why I ended up writing Pastore instead.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:39 pm

@Robespierre wrote:of course I will support Argentina for many reasons , definitely less rivalry, it wouldn't reach us for title won unlike of Germany , they've Inter players too (although benchers) . Anyway if Germany wins it's okay, it would be one of most deserved victories ever tbh.

I thought the same think a few days back that if Germany win this world cup they go ahead of Italy to #2 in the all time football world order because other than on the number of stars Germany was already ahead of Italy in every other way.

Yes if Germany wins it's it will be one of the most deserving victories in world cups ever - maybe the best since Argentina 1986 which is so ironic.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Glory on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:44 pm

Important thing will be prevent them from scoring early. if we can somehow restrict them to a 0-0 at half time. we can win it.

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:45 pm

@dostoevsky wrote:Thanks jd. Whilst the 7-1 blowout might be seen as a warning for those opening up to chase a game, it remains a freak result that I do not think teams will pay great attention to. Brazil's approach from the very start was fundamentally flawed which exacerbated the effects of conceding. Even so, the lack of leadership and composure displayed by a team which had not yet been asked to respond to adversity against a top side before was unusual. This Argentina side has also not yet had to deal with the pressures of being behind against strong opposition, however I do not think the team will deviate from their game plan unless time begins to run out. I think we are more likely to see a game such as Germany had in the quarter final against France in which both sides risked little and Deschamps waited until deep into the second half before trying his hand.

As for the issue of Maradona's World Cup performances, I personally do not consider it a deal breaker however many are invested in the argument of who is the greatest of all time. What would truly be more demonstrative of a player's qualities? To have Messi score a brilliant brace and dominate the game but end up on the losing side or to score a penalty to win the World Cup in a game in which others starred? Even in 1986, it can be argued that Maradona's impact was at its greatest early on in the tournament as he was relatively fatigued by the end of the tournament, having done so much to get Argentina to the final. I think it's a reasonable assessment to venture that Messi will never have another opportunity such as this to shine at international level though. To defeat a German side that is now riding upon incredible hype, the nemesis of Maradona's days and in the home of their arch rivals would be a very poetic way to replicate Maradona's achievement and enhance his own legacy.


dost, great reply. I agree largely with everything you said. The only point that I question is Maradona's impact in 1986. As far as I am aware his best performances came in the quarters and semis. In the final he was a little subdued as I remember reading he was man marked by Lothar Matthaus but even then he created the winning goal.

That last line that I have made bold is a clincher. When does one ever get the chance to get the better of both Germany and Brazil in such a big way in one match???
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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:48 pm

Lumiere_Blanche wrote:Important thing will be prevent them from scoring early. if we can somehow restrict them to a 0-0 at half time. we can win it.



As I said before I think whichever team scores first will have one hand on the cup.
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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by Onyx on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:09 pm

Muller vs Messi:

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Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

Post by junkyard on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:05 pm

Did Pele give any prediction for this match? I would feel much relaxed if he had opted for Germany!
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