Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:18 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Barca played Villa through the middle at times and he tracked back as a RW, I guess Suarez would have a similar role.

If Barca's pressing is similar to how it was under Pep, then Suarez not being at RW straight away when pressing shouldn't be a problem. The RB/RCM will be the first players who press the LB.


MT please stop. Your talking like someone who never played football before. Do you realise how big the pitch is? Suarez is never making it from striker to leftback faster than the ball can move there.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Onyx on Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:45 pm

The RB would close down the LB if Barca are near the opposition box. If not then the RCM would close down the LB and it would be 2 banks of 4 until Suarez tracks back. They rarely lose the ball in the first 2 thirds anyway. If the pressing is really good, then it is possible.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:49 pm

MT your confusing two different things, pressing and getting back into 2 banks of 4.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:07 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@Valkyrja wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:I have no idea how he is going fit in this team, in a functional way. Defensively anyway.


he works very hard defensively.

Irrelevant. If he is playing striker, the leftback is free. If he is playing rightwing, thats not a good fit for him.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he play kind of on the right wing for Liverpool at times?

......Sturridge.....
Sterling..Coutinho..Suarez

I seem to remember that's how they played when they thrashed Arsenal
? hmm

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:12 pm

guess that is irrelevant too though as Barca won't play a counter attacking game like Liverpool in that match hmm

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Onyx on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:14 pm

Which one's the problem? That he can't close down the LB when the ball is lost? He doesn't need to do that straight away. When the players swarm around the LB, he'll find it hard to make a pass. It won't matter that some players are actually free, because the LB will be totally surrounded. It all depends on how good the pressing is imo.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:21 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@Valkyrja wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:I have no idea how he is going fit in this team, in a functional way. Defensively anyway.


he works very hard defensively.

Irrelevant. If he is playing striker, the leftback is free. If he is playing rightwing, thats not a good fit for him.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he play kind of on the right wing for Liverpool at times?

......Sturridge.....
Sterling..Coutinho..Suarez

I seem to remember that's how they played when they thrashed Arsenal
? hmm

The right wing itself isnt a problem for him, but the way we traditionally have used strikers on the wings might be.

The level of tactically freedom isnt high for our wingers, traditionally. Plus, surely buying Suarez was so we can use him as a 9 because Messi is no longer a false 9.

But yes, Suarez played on the right on paper, but I remember that game, he came to middle very often and Coutinho was playing deeper.
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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:33 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Which one's the problem? That he can't close down the LB when the ball is lost? He doesn't need to do that straight away. When the players swarm around the LB, he'll find it hard to make a pass. It won't matter that some players are actually free, because the LB will be totally surrounded. It all depends on how good the pressing is imo.


Which players are swarming at the leftback?

You realise it doesnt matter if the leftback doesnt have to be the one to receive the pass right? If those players are covering like you say, then someone else is free.

If its the rightback, then the opposing leftwinger is free. If its the CM (even worse) then the midfielder is free and they easily pass out of pressure.


As I say the ball doesnt have to once go to the leftback. But if one of those two players (RB or CM) are leaving their natural positioning to go press him, then it leaves someone else open ( or space appears) and whoever recovered the ball can pass to them/into the space instead.

It all depends where the ball is. If we picture a situation where Messi and Suarez try and 1-2 and the CB reads it, he is going to be the man with the ball. Lets say Messi presses him straight away (wont happen but whatever), Dani Alves come to pressure the LB because Saurez cant make it, then the CB is looking straight ahead at the winger Alves is leaving to press the LB, and he knocks it to him instead.

Thinking ahead, Pique goes to the winger so he cant receive a pass, then this leaves the striker 1 v 1 with Pique's partner, pass goes direct into him. Pique's partner cant go too close to the striker because he is the last defender and has space to cover alone or he is in on goal...so the striker gets it in space and is turning. They have escaped pressure easily.

Busquets knows all this, so he covers for Pique by dropping into the space. This leaves his man (the CAM) free and he receives the ball instead. Again they are out.

And all is this is if its done 100% perfect from Barca's point of view. If someone is late to press, or if someone presses and still gets beaten, its an even bigger crisis.
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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:34 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
The right wing itself isnt a problem for him, but the way we traditionally have used strikers on the wings might be.

The level of tactically freedom isnt high for our wingers, traditionally. Plus, surely buying Suarez was so we can use him as a 9 because Messi is no longer a false 9.

Ah ok I see

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:46 pm

BTW this isnt me saying it cant work with Suarez, we have proof it can work. We seen this already vs Milan.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/03/13/barcelona-4-0-milan-tactics/

However, this was a one off game with us in desperation mode and working with intensity not seen since the days of Pep. Over the course of an entire season and doing so multiple games, multiple big games in fact, is another story.

Even in this game, after about 2/3-0 Milan began to figure out how to play from the back.
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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Onyx on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:01 pm

The player immediately closing down the LB would be Rakitic or Alves. The opposition CM or AM might be free, but it won't matter because the LB will be caged and everyone else's positioning will be narrow, so there won't be much space.

This video is a decent example. Despite the opposition players having space and players free, they still can't find them because the pitch is narrowed and the player with the ball is caged.

Spoiler:

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:27 pm

The only reason the pitch is narrowed and the ball caged in as you put it, is because the first 2, 3 passes are not clear. If there are not clear, then the person with the ball panics and makes a poor decision.

However, when you leave the midfield to press the fullback, like you say Rakitic will, there is a clear pass. To the midfielder Rakitic just left.

I wont repeat what I said about Alves-Pique-Busquets, but its the same thing.

You seem to be basing all this on the assumption the leftback will get the ball and be pressured. But the leftback never has to get the ball once, he can just be free because Suarez isnt in his region, someone else moves there and the movement opens up space for someone else.

That video is nice, it is showing alot of what happens when the ball is lost in the middle and there are already people in the area so you can press straight away. But you dont have control over where you lose the ball, you can lose it in areas where you dont have players.

More importantly, this is against Sporting Gijon. I am very sure we can pressure the likes of Sporting Gijon into mistakes even without perfect balance and structure because they dont have elite composure or skills.

To win the big games, it will take more than what is done vs Sporting Gijon.
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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Adit on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:52 pm

Said it to mt  in the other thread. Striker tracking LB is just impossible... Weather it is kuyt, Or Suarez .

Rakitic pressing LB means a midfielder is free...mt thinks every left back will panic and just hoof the ball over. Not against big teams.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Onyx on Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:28 pm

If Rakitic commits, then Iniesta covers and Neymar/Alba move in and become more narrow. 2-3 players might be free, but they'll be half marked by anyone on the left side of the pitch, while the player with the ball will be caged.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Onyx on Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:39 pm

Example:

Spoiler:
[img][/img]

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:35 pm

The RW isnt going to stand there and let that happen, he is going to sprint into the space in front of him with will commit Alba's attention.

The striker wont stand there, he going to come forward to draw Pique and then right into that channel of space between Alves and Pique.

The AM is going to love Busquets is leaving him alone and comes towards the space Iniesta is leaving.

The time it takes Rakitic to get over the LB and Iniesta to get across is plenty time for the pass to be played in to him. It wont even have to be that accurate in that amount of space.

Now we have a 3 v 3 of RW, AM and ST vs Pique, Alba and some CB. Not a single coach in the world wants equal numbers against his defenders at the back, they always want numerical superiority because its too dangerous.

Also, what Adit said is right. You think Marcelo for example is just going to panic and hoof? He will wait for Rakitic to run full speed at him and turn to his right while Rakitic is coming to his left, using his own momentum against him, he can do it because he is a great dribbler and can use both feet. To panic these players, you have to be on him before he even gets the ball so he is facing his own goal.


Last edited by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Casciavit on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:42 pm

Why can't Suarez play in the same spaces Villa did? It's not like Villa was hugging the touchline for you guys, he was playing in the space between the LB and LCB, no?


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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:43 pm

@Casciavit wrote:Why can't Suarez play in the same spaces Villa did? It's not like Villa was hugging the touchline for you guys, he was playing in the space between the LB and LCB, no?



We talking defensively here Casc.

edit: sorry misunderstood your point.

The point of signing Suarez surely wasnt to play him like Villa, as a striker out of position. Villa didnt stay wide no, but his starting position was wide and then he moved inside with movement. But the starting position is the key one, he started out wide.

This worked because Messi can drop into midfield, take a CB with him and space opens for Villa to move into. Or the CB who is alien so high up gets beat by Messi or allows him to get the ball and chaos happens. Now, CB's dont follow Messi anymore, they leave it to the midfielders and then after Messi gets past them, the CB's are right on top of him.

Essentially Messi has the attention of 3-4 players now rather than 2. Teams (when back in their low block, not pressing us) arent going to pressure Iniesta and Xavi to leave Messi space in between the lines because the CB's arent coming up. They will drop off onto Messi and Iniesta, let Xavi and Busquets have the ball on the half way line with no options in front. Messi dont offer movement behind CB's anymore so that ball isnt on either.

 Messi needs a "block" in front of him now, someone who keeps the CB's occupied so he can move with and without the ball more easier. He isnt reading situations well for whatever reason and he loses alot of balls trying to dribble people because he is so surrounded.  The "block" in theory gives him more room. So if he runs or dribbles past the midfielder on him, the CB's cant just straight away rush out to him. There is a striker in a goalscoring position.

So Suarez's starting position has to occupy the CB's, not a fullback. At least that seems to be the logic behind replacing Alexis for him.
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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Onyx on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:49 pm

Basically I don't think the pressing is to do with players being free, or not being free etc. I think it's more about how the team approaches the player with the ball, in this case the LB.

The player nearest to the ball closes down, the others swarm and block out his passing lanes. So even if there is someone free, it'll be hard to get the ball to that player, due to the intensity of the pressing.

If not being pressured instantly is a problem, then Alves can press the LB instead, while the others trap out the LW.

Villa in the middle worked fine in this game.

Spoiler:

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by futbol on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:05 pm

I'm not saying you don't make valid points, Dani. But I still remain you're overthinking this. I'm quite confident Luis Enrique is not stupid and will leave major spaces uncovered. The guy wants a scaffolding to watch the spaces between the lines in training sessions, fss. Laughing If we're playing against Real Madrid we won't leave Marcelo completely unmarked and have Suarez glued to the centerbacks. I can't explain to you the exact mechanisms. First I'm not a tactician, second we don't even know how Lucho will line up. For all we know we'll be playing with Busquets and Mascherano in a double pivot. But I still don't see a huge problem. It's not as if Barca can't afford fluidity where the wing forward occupies central positions at times and his old position can't be covered by others. As an example: Spain in the past few years. Iniesta is a left winger who tracks and presses the rightback only on paper. In reality he's drifting centrally all the time. His pre-assist for Silva's goal in the Euro final came from the right(!) half-field position. He's basically a midfielder and doesn't run up and down the flanks. On paper you'd say this isn't possible. But there are certainly tactical mechanisms that can make it happen properly.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by The Franchise on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:16 am

MT, I feel your either not listening, not understanding or just stubbornly sticking to your opinion regardless of what im saying. Which is all fine, but as I say, I disagree with you and wont repeat myself more.

Futbol. I believe Luis Enrique isnt stupid, I believe he understands balance of pressing and what issues can occur in lobsided structure.

So I am not highly concerned. However, I am very eager to see what he does because getting things right tactically is crucial, I cant stress that enough...players are so highly trained, so many teams have some many great players..the margin between winning and losing is smaller than ever and it almost always comes down to 2 things. Individual errors and tactics.

My final points on this before this thread turns into what it should be about, Suarez.

We will see what happens, we will see how Enrique uses all the things at his disposal and how he figures it all out. My main point I made on this thread was not my disbelief in Suarez working, my main point was I dont know how it will work and the suggestions I have read here so far dont answer that in any way, for me.





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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by futbol on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:15 am

Okay. We'll see how it pans out.

Regardless:



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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Red Alert on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:20 am



All of his goals for us.

I miss him already. Sad

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by danyjr on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:53 am

One thing to note from that video is how Liverpool's plan was based on Suárez and his combination with Sturridge last season was amongst the deadliest in EPL. I don't think this is repeatable at Barcelona with Messi and Neymar playing. The combination lacks balance in my opinion.

Regardless, he is one of the smartest strikers I've seen in modern football. His movements are always spot on and his finishing is immaculate.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Donuts on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:05 am

Apparently if Suarez bites another player, his punishment will be that we take away 3m of his yearly salary.

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Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

Post by Winter is Coming on Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:15 pm

“I am happy that Germany won the World Cup. They are playing the kind of football that Barcelona are distancing themselves from,” Cruyff wrote in his column for De Telegraaf.

“That feeling has only gotten stronger with the signing of Luis Suarez. He is a great player, but has a complicated character.

“I don’t know how they plan to play free-flowing attacking football with Messi, Neymar and Suarez in one team. They are all players who rely on their individual actions.

“Barcelona choose for individualism rather than a team playing good football. The style of play they developed under Frank Rijkaard and Pep Guardiola is being abandoned.”

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