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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:27 pm

As for the Porto thing, and "what have Bayern done" etc pp.

The injuries are very bad and have a huge impact no doubt.

A different thing is that we had a lot of injuries all season, not quite as extreme as right now but similarly, yet we played much much better even with our 'B' players on the field.

Just like last season, it's simply undeniable our whole team play and team form, the quality, speed, accuracy, confidence of our play, has degraded terribly since the beginning of the new year.

In the state we were in when we smashed Roma, we would not be embarrassed away by Porto like that, period.
No matter who's missing.
We'd not win 7:1 probably, or maybe draw or whatever as Robben and Alaba missing is a unambiguous loss of overall quality.
But the annoying thing is just how POOR we play at this point (and did last April too), and this is a problem that concerns Pep's performance as manager tbh.

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Post by windkick Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:11 pm

btw, both Bale and Modric are out for about 3-6 weeks each. While Bale has been shit, his speed does trouble allot of the La Liga sides even when he isn't getting on the score sheet. And Modric is an engine in midfield they need. I hope this gives Atleti the confidence they need to at least rustle up a draw against them on Wednesday. Also hope this leads to them dropping points in la Liga, as we could use the help.

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Post by The Franchise Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:34 pm

I agree with that btw re Bayern.

I see two seperate issues which cant be confused, though its easy to.

There is the legit excuse that Bayern are weaker because of injuries, thats legitimate and frankly unquestionable.

But the 2nd thing is, even with injuries they should be doing better. The team at the start of the season wouldnt lose 1-3 to Porto away, regardless.
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Post by billy_gr Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:59 pm

Guys we 're going over the top here. Daniel provided some nice arguments and I understand where he's coming from but, Alfred, best team of the world? That's a bit too much. At least I'm not convinced. Maybe they will progress and they have to face Madrid again. I d love to swallow my words if they take revenge on them. Maybe Porto shock them in Munich too. I'll post again after the next game.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:15 pm

well at the moment we're nowhere near the best team of the world, that much is for sure Laughing
Neither in terms of personell nor the way we play.

By the looks of it, we're not even top 8 in our current state Laughing
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Post by CBarca Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:38 am

To me it's very interesting as the Barcelona drop in February and then surge in the late season under Pep is very well documented, especially simply through the experience of us Barca fans.

Not sure why he hasn't been able to do the same for this Bayern team. Especially considering the personnel is good enough, and the way he's had them playing at, say, the beginning of the season.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:16 am

"late season" is now, and there's no surge.

I don't think this has to do with a controlled trajectory, I don't know what it is but it is truly worrying.
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Post by alexjanosik Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:06 am

I think you are being a tad unreasonable hans.I think Pep is a victim of his own impossibly high standards.
Everyone expects him to win the treble every season.That is just impossible.There is a reason no one has ever won the CL back to back.It is because it is practically impossible.Our great team couldnt do it,the great Milan team couldnt do it,Madrid couldnt and neither could your great side.
There are variety of reasons for it.Motivation and hunger is very important to winning it.After winning 2,we just didnt have that hunger anymore.Were we that much worse than Bayern that we lost 7-0.Among other things,the main problem was that we had no desire left while Bayern had that eye of the tiger look.They were far more hungry and destroyed us.
The moment Bayern won the treble a bit of that hunger was gone.When you played Madrid last season,you just didnt have that hunger whereas Madrid were desperate.I think even some of your players like Muller have mentioned this.It also doesnt help that Germany won the WC and some of the German players may feel that they have accomplished all there is to achieve.It is incredibly difficult to motivate a group of players who have won it all.The likes of Ferguson and Cruyff have said the same which is also why they talked of teams having a cycle and the need to recycle teams.
All that being the case,even for a coach of Pep's caliber, a domestic double and the CL semis is the most any reasonable fan can expect.Pep achieved that last season and is on course to do so again.
He has a severely depleted squad right now.Have the performances deteriorated second half of the season?Yes,but imo injuries have played a huge part.Also it is a hunch,but perhaps he is finding the long winter break in Germany troublesome.At Barca,there was no winter break.Maybe the long winter break is hindering the continuity in the performances.It is just a hunch.
I did think you played well against Hoffenheim at the weekend considering all the circumstances.Dante was once more a calamity.He is just not good enough and needs to be shown the door in the summer.Rode had another impressive performance.I think he should start against Porto.The midfield should be Guadino,Rode and Thiago.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:31 am

Alex, don't get me wrong.

I'm absolutely not among those who ridiculously expect, or 'demand', a CL win for us.
In fact I get very angry when stupid commentators, and fans, set the bar for us and Pep like this, where in fact everyone can only lose.
But we should be competing, and we're not. We weren't either last season, we were poor already against a terrible Man Utd (even Arsenal). Real, everyone could see that. This season, we were poor against Shakhtjar already. We were absolutely terrible against Porto.

I completely agree with all of your points about 'hunger'.
The most important thing is intensity. It's the reason why in football teams from lower leagues can cause upsets in cups etc.

In our treble season we had something to prove.
After that, we didn't, also the whole perception changes, opponents adapt etc.
I mean even Mourinho's Real in 2012 didn't park the bus like Ancelotti's Real did. Why? Because later they perceived us as favourites (and of course recognized Pep's way of trying to dominate games).

That's also why this 'best team in the world' story annoys me. The moment we think we are the best team chances are we'll be found out to not be all that.
I won't even start with what Breitner said before last years semi, it summed up how fatal such a perception can be.

All this also doesn't mean that I'm on Pep's case because of achievements. Achievements are secondary to the quality of our play.
I absolutely love having him as manager, the job he's doing in the league is absolutely brilliant and it's interesting, fun to watch, the players and fans love him. And as a RESULT of these things, it's crazily successful.

But.

You can't deny, like last season, we deteriorate in crunch time.
It's hard to isolate issues, as injuries, circumstances play into it.

But as I said, our teamplay deteriorates. The quality of our football deteriorates.
We are slow, we are timid. We are imprecise. That has consequences, as it means we get neither into the mindset nor the positions to get our counterpress going, which is such an integral part of our game.

When it did last season, I firmly believed it was mainly down to the drop in hunger.

It's happening again, and this explanation doesn't entirely convince me anymore.
Something else is going on with the way Pep prepares, sets up the team.

Maybe his high intensity, demanding multiple plans/formations style, (nothing more ridiculous than to claim he's 'got no plan B'), is wearing the players' mental capacities down as the season goes on?

As I said, I don't know.

But you watch us. You know we did play more precise and assured, and most of all intense, in fall.
It's just very frustrating if the curve goes down over a season, instead of up.

As Dani said, even with the injuries, we should be doing better, I might add, because we have been doing so much better earlier this season, even with lots of injuries.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:47 am

To make it clear again, with "doing better" I don't mean we should win the CL or something.
I mean we should not be timid, slow, technically unsound against a Porto side which frankly, in spite of their good quality, didn't exactly play out of this world.

We gifted them the goals, they didn't create them.

OK, shit happens, then we pull back to 1:2 at HT, at which point they weren't better.

Why then such a poor and uninspired second half? It's not acceptable.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:03 am

Overlooked the part about the winter break in your post.

Yes, I've got a similar hunch.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:10 pm

Yes, I agree also. When I said doing better, I just meant performance and result quite secondary.

I mean, they are linked...a better performing Bayern wouldnt lose to Porto like they did and they wouldnt play like they did either.

But we also have to remember goals change games, especially in the big matches.

What Alonso and Dante did were awful, you dont expect that from players of that level. I dont rate current Dante and I have not rated Alonso in about 5 years so its not that big a surprise but still, what they did was ghastly errors and they changed the entire attitude of both teams. It created tension in Bayern and inspired Porto, which lead to that performance and that result.
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Post by alexjanosik Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:21 pm

Maybe Pep's overall fitness and training regime is more suited to a season without a winter break.
Maybe his training regime is not optimal for a season with such a long winter break.Hence the sub optimal performances in the second half of the season.
I am no expert on training and physiology and am completely clueless.Maybe someone more knowledgeable like dani or free could explain if it could be a factor.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:33 pm

I couldn't say either.

I'd just add that this post winter break drop off isn't exclusively something that happens in the Pep era.

In fact, this winter break, when since there's a month without competitive football the thirsty fan is lapping up news and proclamations about how well the training camp went etc, and the following Wolfsburg game where we paradoxically looked as if we had not trained at all, or as if we had trained how to misplace passes and how to not know the movements of the teammates lol, reminded me a lot of the famous "best winter training camp of all times" in 2011/12.

That's what someone (I think Hoeness?) really called it publcly back then, we also went into the break with a comfortable lead in the league and all looked rosy, the superbestest of possible winter training camps followed and then we proceeded to lose the lead, and league, with surprising swiftness lol.

Maybe, if a main problem is indeed 'hunger' as we said, the winter break is bad for us if the first half season was convincing.
Because there is naturally a drop of tension, and competitive tension is so very precious in football and so hard to conjure up artificially.

It's like starting a new season, only you start the season with +12 points.
Maybe it's indeed a problem.
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Post by alexjanosik Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:52 pm

Just one point on the plan B and Pep.I find it hilarious that people still come up with the plan B nonsense regarding Pep.He has such variety to his tactics and formations.I have seen so many different variations and tactics to tackle different opponents this season.Just one condition.That all the variations and tactics fit within his idea and philosophy of football,which is the Cruyff philosophy.
When people say that he has no plan B,what they really mean is that he can park the bus and counter.
It is such a ridiculous thing to say.Parking the bus and countering is a relatively easy thing to do which is why 99% of managers out there do it and a lot manage to do it quite well.
Do people really think that a manager of Pep's genius cant figure it out and set up his team to PTB and counter?
People seem to confuse willingness and ability.
Pep isnt willing to compromise on his principles.He can easily set up his team to PTB and counter(but he rightfully wont as it is a medieval tactic if it can even be called a tactic).

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Post by Casciavit Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:18 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Just one point on the plan B and Pep.I find it hilarious that people still come up with the plan B nonsense regarding Pep.He has such variety to his tactics and formations.I have seen so many different variations and tactics to tackle different opponents this season.Just one condition.That all the variations and tactics fit within his idea and philosophy of football,which is the Cruyff philosophy.
When people say that he has no plan B,what they really mean is that he can park the bus and counter.
It is such a ridiculous thing to say.Parking the bus and countering is a relatively easy thing to do which is why 99% of managers out there do it and a lot manage to do it quite well.
Do people really think that a manager of Pep's genius cant figure it out and set up his team to PTB and counter?
People seem to confuse willingness and ability.
Pep isnt willing to compromise on his principles.He can easily set up his team to PTB and counter(but he rightfully wont as it is a medieval tactic if it can even be called a tactic).


I agree with that. I think he's much more flexible than many give him credit for. This season I've seen him field very defensive lineups and hell he's been using a pivot every now and then too.

As for Bayern's slump, I've already written about it, but for me it boils down to the injuries mostly. To play positional play at the highest level the players need to be in top mental, physical and technical form.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:27 pm

Let's add "overturned a 3-1 loss with half a starting team against a top 8 European team" on the "what have they done?" column hmm
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Post by billy_gr Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:28 pm

Bayern Proud
how wrong I was....
dat keeper though
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Post by windkick Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:48 pm

What an ass raping. Was like Germany vs Brazil
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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:17 am

alexjanosik wrote:Maybe Pep's overall fitness and training regime is more suited to a season without a winter break.
Maybe his training regime is not optimal for a season with such a long winter break.Hence the sub optimal performances in the second half of the season.
I am no expert on training and physiology and am completely clueless.Maybe someone more knowledgeable like dani or free could explain if it could be a factor.

Not my strong point to be honest. I know the basics and have read various academic journals on physiology but just that.

My guess though would be whoever came up with the training plan (wouldnt be Pep, think the fitness coaches would have that responsibility) already had in mind the winter break. Unless Pep foolishly overruled his own fitness staff (cant imagine any coach would) then they would have designed everything and anyone working on that high level position surely already considered the winter break.

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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:19 am

Porto :facepalm:

Total first half meltdown.

I dont even know what to say.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:40 pm

Goes to show though, that injuries are NOT the main issue.

Except for Badstuber instead of Dante, same team as 6 days ago, yet a completely different performance.

Full engagement, quick play, relentless counterpressing. That's how we're supposed to roll.
Sometimes as much as 4 players hounding a Porto midfielder who receives a ball.

I didn't think we'd be able to turn it on like that tbh. Great first half performance.

Dani your point about goals impacting games, the indivdual errors, stands strong after this, even if I have the feeling such lackluster and bloodless away performances are amplified by Pep's for my taste needlessly timid approach to CL away games. Maybe he's even trying to be too tactical?

I want us to be all over the opponent, even away, I think we're much better then instead of going for the slow control route.
Because paradoxically we achieve security and control better the higher up we push and the more we go for it imo.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:43 pm

The Franchise wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Maybe Pep's overall fitness and training regime is more suited to a season without a winter break.
Maybe his training regime is not optimal for a season with such a long winter break.Hence the sub optimal performances in the second half of the season.
I am no expert on training and physiology and am completely clueless.Maybe someone more knowledgeable like dani or free could explain if it could be a factor.

Not my strong point to be honest. I know the basics and have read various academic journals on physiology but just that.

My guess though would be whoever came up with the training plan (wouldnt be Pep, think the fitness coaches would have that responsibility) already had in mind the winter break. Unless Pep foolishly overruled his own fitness staff (cant imagine any coach would) then they would have designed everything and anyone working on that high level position surely already considered the winter break.



Pretty sure this is all meticulously planned to take the winter break into account. They're professionals after all.
It's more a mental thing.
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Post by windkick Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:23 pm

They also didn't score away vs Shakhtar. I remember when Pep was with us we would also end series at home, not away. Maybe Pep isn't good at on the road, idk. That's one of the things I can think of that's similar to his Barca and Bayern teams in Europe


Last edited by windkick on Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:57 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:Goes to show though, that injuries are NOT the main issue.

Except for Badstuber instead of Dante, same team as 6 days ago, yet a completely different performance.

Full engagement, quick play, relentless counterpressing. That's how we're supposed to roll.
Sometimes as much as 4 players hounding a Porto midfielder who receives a ball.

I didn't think we'd be able to turn it on like that tbh. Great first half performance.

Dani your point about goals impacting games, the indivdual errors, stands strong after this, even if I have the feeling such lackluster and bloodless away performances are amplified by Pep's for my taste needlessly timid approach to CL away games. Maybe he's even trying to be too tactical?

I want us to be all over the opponent, even away, I think we're much better then instead of going for the slow control route.
Because paradoxically we achieve security and control better the higher up we push and the more we go for it imo.

I think that the first game impacted the first half of this one. I think they were so badly outplayed that they took it personally and knew everyone was doubting them. It was like a spark of motivation for them.

The slightly worrying part was the second half, because it seemed like they knew they had won and could "relax" again. But I mean, great teams do that, Barca did. So it may not mean much and the Porto 1st leg loss gave them what they needed, a real wake up call.

On the Porto point of view, its a similar story. Amazing at home, awful away. I dont know why the contrast is so dramatic, even with totally different players this year compared to years ago. But the issue remains the same.

About Pep's being too tactical, its not the first time he has been accused of that. I think that Inter - Barca first leg those years ago really effected Pep. Because he knows it was totally his fault and he got it so wrong on that day and Barca couldnt recover from it. Maybe its actually coincidence, but at since then I think away legs alter his thinking on CL games. I feel he did the same last year against Madrid, I would say he even lost his nerve and went with a team which he fooled himself into thinking it was "safer" when it was that same old situation that safety is doing what you do best, not over-thinking the situation.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:14 pm

The Franchise wrote:
I think that the first game impacted the first half of this one. I think they were so badly outplayed that they took it personally and knew everyone was doubting them. It was like a spark of motivation for them.

No doubt. Last year we had uninspired draws (1:1 at Machester), or even the 0:1 away at Real, which still could be somewhat euphemized.
This first leg, together with the medical staff affair and the ensuing press storm, gave a real back to the wall feeling.

Thing is though, I don't want us to have to rely on something like that, and push our luck.
Anything like this first leg 1:3 away against a team in the semis and we're out, they're not going to bend over like Porto did.

The Franchise wrote:
The slightly worrying part was the second half, because it seemed like they knew they had won and could "relax" again. But I mean, great teams do that, Barca did. So it may not mean much and the Porto 1st leg loss gave them what they needed, a real wake up call.

That's always astonishing to me, just how much momentum, concentration and tension are important for our game.
Football as a whole, but seemingly especially our game.

The 2:3 against City at home last season - textbook example.
2 goals in ten minutes, like a hot knife through butter, playing fantastic, City have no chance. Then we relax (after 15 minutes lol), City fight back and we have lost momentum and can't get it back. You lose momentum, you then lose challenges.

Almost feels like the momentum alone determines whether we are the better or the worse team - had Porto scored a second after 80 minutes god knows how insecure and bad we might have become.

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About Pep's being too tactical, its not the first time he has been accused of that. I think that Inter - Barca first leg those years ago really effected Pep. Because he knows it was totally his fault and he got it so wrong on that day and Barca couldnt recover from it. Maybe its actually coincidence, but at since then I think away legs alter his thinking on CL games. I feel he did the same last year against Madrid, I would say he even lost his nerve and went with a team which he fooled himself into thinking it was "safer" when it was that same old situation that safety is doing what you do best, not over-thinking the situation.


Yes I agree. We are not safer when the signal is "safety". Which is connected with the momentum thing.

(was very clear under van Gaal - he always brought on Tymoschtschuk as a defensive midfielder when he wanted to defend a lead last 15 minutes - sounds logical, but the result usually was a total breakdown in confidence and momentum lol)

As for Pep, he's definitely sometimes overdoing it, trying to be too perfect.
And in our away games, I think in a way he's too respectful and defensive.

But I think what we cannot forget is, that he's actually still a young and inexperienced coach.
Bayern is, in a way, his first job, away from home.
I've never seen a coach of ours so miserably nervous before important games lol, I always want to hug him and tell him it's not THAT important.
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