Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:52 pm

Best performance's based on 4 of the most important statistic. Statistics provided by OPTA.

Goals
- How much player provided attacking quality
Chances Created - How much player provided playmaking quality
Dribbles - How much player provided advancing play
Tackling - How much player provided defending quality

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC14


4 - 23 - 46 - 9 - Messi
5 - 17 - 12 - 7 - Müller
3 - 17 - 34 - 2 - Robben
6 - 11 - 15 - 6 - James

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC10

5
- 17 - 7 - 0 - Forlan
5 - 11 - 9 - 4 - Sneijder
5 - 13 - 11 - 1 - Villa
0 - 30 - 10 - 9 - Xavi
0 - 16 - 34 - 7 - Messi

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC06

3 - 12 - 15 - 4 - Zidane
5 - 15 - 8 - 8 - Klose
3 - 12 - 20 - 1 - Henry
1 - 24 - 11 - 17 - Pirlo

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC02

x - x - x - x - Kahn
8 - 13 - 11 - 4 - Ronaldo
5 - 13 - 14 - 7 - Rivaldo
1 - 24 - 7 - 17 - Schneider

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC98

4 - 7 - 16 - 3 - Ronaldo
6 - 9 - 15 - 6 - Suker
3 - 18 - 17 - 6 - Rivaldo
2 - 19 - 20 - 10 - De Boer

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC94

5 - 8 - 25 - 1 - Romario
5 - 12 - 14 - 10 - Baggio
6 - 6 - 14 - 7 - Stoichkov
3 - 18 - 17 - 11 - Brolin

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC90

6
- 8 - 9 - 2 - Schillaci
4 - 21 - 22 - 22 - Matthaus
3 - 24 - 3 - 17 - Brehme

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC86

5 - 27 - 53 - 11 - Maradona
5 - 18 - 9 - 3 - Careca
6 - 3 - 2 - 1 - Lineker

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC82

6
- 14 - 10 - 2 - Rossi
4 - 18 - 13 - 5 - Boniek
3 - 8 - 10 - 15 - Falcao
3 - 24 - 17 - 5 - Giresse

No stats for Rummenigge.

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC78

6 - 18 - 43 - 5 - Kempes
5 - 15 - 19 - 8 - Rensenbrink
2 - 19 - 10 - 24 - Haan

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC74

3 - 36 - 33 - 9 - Cruyff
3 - 30 - 23 - 17 - Deyna
7 - 13 - 8 - 14 - Lato

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC70

4 - 28 - 16 - 9 - Pele
7 - 13 - 47 - 4 - Jairzinho
10 - 14 - 4 - 0 - Gerd Müller

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC66

3 - 18 - 15 - 15 - Charlton
9 - 10 - 35 - 10 - Eusebio
4 - 9 - 22 - 17 - Beckenbauer

The least controversial World Cup Golden Ball, based on most important statistics:

1. Maradona 86
2. Kempes 78
3. Messi 14
4. Cruyff 74
5. Romario 94
6. Rossi 82
7. Forlan 10
8. Pele 70
9. Schillaci 90
10. Charlton 66
11. Ronaldo 98
12. Zidane 06
13. Kahn 02

Note, not all players are sourced.
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Post by sportsczy on Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:04 pm

You spent a lot of time to reach nonsense conclusions... time that you can never have back. How does that make you feel?

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:07 pm

@sportsczy wrote:You spent a lot of time to reach nonsense conclusions... time that you can never have back. How does that make you feel?
Why it's nonsense?

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Post by Valkyrja on Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:12 pm

Who the heck cares about these stats. Just look at Ronaldo's performance in 98 and compare it with Messi's . It's clear who played better

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:15 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:Who the heck cares about these stats. Just look at Ronaldo's performance in 98 and compare it with Messi's . It's clear who played better
Who and why?
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Post by Valkyrja on Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:20 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@Valkyrja wrote:Who the heck cares about these stats. Just look at Ronaldo's performance in 98 and compare it with Messi's . It's clear who played better
Who and why?


Messi ofc. He carried Argentina during the group stage

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:27 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@Valkyrja wrote:Who the heck cares about these stats. Just look at Ronaldo's performance in 98 and compare it with Messi's . It's clear who played better
Who and why?


Messi ofc. He carried Argentina during the group stage
So Ronaldo 98 scored more important goals? Lets see:

Pele 70 (4 goals)

Group

BRA 4 (+2)
ENG 4 (+1)
ROM 4 (+1)
CZE 0

Knockout

QF BRA 4 - 2 PER
SF BRA 3 - 1 URU
Final BRA 3 - 1 ITA

Nothing changes without Pele's goals, Brazil wins World Cup.

Cruyff 74 (3 goals)

Group 1

NED 5
SWE 4
BUL 2
URU 1

Group 2

NED 6
BRA 4
EGE 1
ARG 1

Final NED 1 - 2 WGE

Nothing changes without Cruyff's goals, Netherlands ends runner-ups.

Maradona 86 (5 goals)

Group

ITA 5
ARG 4
BUL 2
KOR 1

R16 ARG 1 - 0 URU
QF ARG 0 - 1 ENG

Argentina ends 2nd in the group and gets eliminated in QF without Maradona's goals, although the opposition would've been different.

Ronaldo 98 (4 goals)

Group

BRA 6
NOR 5
MOR 4
SCO 1

R16 BRA 2 - 1 CHI
QF BRA 3 - 2 DEN
SF BRA 0 - 1 NED

Brazil gets eliminated in SF instead of Final without Ronaldo's goals.

Messi 14 (4 goals)

Group

NIG 7
BOS 4
ARG 2 (-1)
IRA 2 (-2)


Argentina gets eliminated in group phase instead of Final without Messi's goals.

Seems to me Messi's goals were more important than at least Pele 70, Cruyff 74 and Ronaldo 98?
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Post by Harmonica on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:05 pm

RWO mad about Kahn. Proud It's only logical. Smile
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:47 am

How are you judging controversy from stats?

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:12 am

@Kick wrote:How are you judging controversy from stats?
The chosen best player compared to the actual quality of their contemporaries?
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:27 am

So why isn't the saves per game of Kahn compared to the saves per game of Ronaldo?

Because it's silly. Just like it's silly to use Stats to compare the 'controversy' of a winner.

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:54 am

@Kick wrote:So why isn't the saves per game of Kahn compared to the saves per game of Ronaldo?

Because it's silly. Just like it's silly to use Stats to compare the 'controversy' of a winner.
Because you can't statistically compare goalies and outfield players? He's the most controversial because he's the only goalkeeper to win it. Logical really.
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:59 am

He's the most controversial because he's a GK? rofl

With that logic, we may as well play 11 attackers in our team, since statistically, they're 'the most effective'. rofl

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:06 am

@Kick wrote:He's the most controversial because he's a GK? rofl

With that logic, we may as well play 11 attackers in our team, since statistically, they're 'the most effective'. rofl
Let me repeat, he's the most controversial because he's the only goal keeper to win it, not because he's a goal keeper.

No, that's not the logic, if it was, we wouldn't compare play making, or tackling.

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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:14 am

That's not controversy.

controversial
kɒntrəˈvəːʃ(ə)l/Submit
adjective
giving rise or likely to give rise to controversy or public disagreement.

If a player played well in the tournament, regardless of position or statistics, then there isn't going to be public disagreement about it.

A better way to portray this would be to actually ask the public who they think is the least deserving, then compiling the data and working out controversy from that.

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:22 am

@Kick wrote:That's not controversy.

controversial
kɒntrəˈvəːʃ(ə)l/Submit
adjective
giving rise or likely to give rise to controversy or public disagreement.

If a player played well in the tournament, regardless of position or statistics, then there isn't going to be public disagreement about it.

A better way to portray this would be to actually ask the public who they think is the least deserving, then compiling the data and working out controversy from that.
Public disagreement, or public controversy is what media creates it to be. I'm comparing the actual reality, or actual quality, not what public thinks.

Casual fans don't have knowledge, or ability to compare players rationally.


Last edited by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:24 am

So you are not looking at controversy then.

What you are looking at who was the best based on four stats.

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:25 am

@Kick wrote:So you are not looking at controversy then.

What you are looking at who was the best based on four stats.
I am.

Most controversial based on four of the most important statistic.
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:28 am

No, not controversial at all.

Controversy relies on public disagreement, you've taken the public out of it, therefore it cannot be controversial, in any way, shape or form.

Also, they are not the four most important statistics of a game.

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:35 am

@Kick wrote:No, not controversial at all.

Controversy relies on public disagreement, you've taken the public out of it, therefore it cannot be controversial, in any way, shape or form.

Also, they are not the four most important statistics of a game.
Yes, controversial.

No, controversy doesn't have to be a public disagreement.

Yes, they are the most important statistics, and the most meaningful. Goals, play making, dribbles and tackles. These are also the statistics the best players are related to, and legends are made of.
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:45 am

Yes, it does.
Here is a quick definition for you:
controversy
ˈkɒntrəvəːsi,kənˈtrɒvəsi/Submit
noun
prolonged public disagreement or heated discussion.


Those Statistics do not make legends, otherwise Hierro would be regarded as the greatest defender of all time. Cini would be the greatest goalkeeper and Lehmen would have started over Kahn.

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:54 am

@Kick wrote:Yes, it does.
Here is a quick definition for you:
controversy
ˈkɒntrəvəːsi,kənˈtrɒvəsi/Submit
noun
prolonged public disagreement or heated discussion.


Those Statistics do not make legends, otherwise Hierro would be regarded as the greatest defender of all time. Cini would be the greatest goalkeeper and Lehmen would have started over Kahn.
No it doesn't.

controversy
Syllabification: con·tro·ver·sy
Pronunciation: /ˈkäntrəˌvərsē    /
NOUN (plural controversies)

Disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated:
he sometimes caused controversy because of his forceful views
the announcement ended a protracted controversy

The disagreement of the panel and the actual quality produced, a controversy.

Goal scoring is the most important for a forward, play making for a midfielder, and tackling for a defender. Dribbling is important for everybody. You can see from the statistics who were the best playemakers and so on. It's not coincidence that Messi, Pele, Maradona, Pirlo, Xavi and Cruyff and so on were the best playmakers, or created most chances in World Cup.
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:05 am

So where is the disagreement?

Also if it isn't prolonged, public and/or heated, it's just disagreement, not controversy Laughing

Really? so the most important thing for a midfielder to do is create chances? rofl

I'd argue clearances are just as important for a defender, since, what good is a tackle if you just give it back to the opposition again?

amount of tackles do not tell you how good a defender is just like chances created does not tell you how good a midfielder is.

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:11 am

@Kick wrote:So where is the disagreement?

Also if it isn't prolonged, public and/or heated, it's just disagreement, not controversy Laughing

Really? so the most important thing for a midfielder to do is create chances? rofl

I'd argue clearances are just as important for a defender, since, what good is a tackle if you just give it back to the opposition again?

amount of tackles do not tell you how good a defender is just like chances created does not tell you how good a midfielder is.
Have you even read the first post? Ronaldo 98 won Golden Ball even when Suker produced more quality? There's more controversy than Maradona 86 winning it over Careca, because it has less disagreement between the panel and the actual quality produced.

Yes, it is.

Tackling needs more quality than clearance. Tackle here is tackle won, and possession won because of it. What good is a clearance if you give it to opposition?

Yes they do.
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Post by Kick on Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:17 am

Please point to were the disagreement about the 98 golden ball winner is, (a link will do)

What about a DM? is his most important job to create chances? Or should he be protecting the defence? What about a B2B? I suppose he can be as lazy as he likes, as long as he creates a chance every now and then.
Why is it the most important?

So why did you not include the amount of times possession is lost directly after possession was won by this tackle, or amount of time the team retained the ball after possession was won? surely that would influence the importance of the statistic.

How do they?

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