Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966

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Post by Pip on Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:48 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
Pippo wrote:Why don't you do Ronaldo in 2002?
He didn't win Golden Ball.
Oh, right. Stupid of me, I didn't even read the title. :facepalm:

Can you still do the comparison...for comparison's sake? hmm

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Post by Curtinho on Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:54 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Cruyff  WC74

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 Cruyff%2074

3 goals from 9 great scoring chances
16 great scoring chances created
33 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
9
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
10 (3 + 4 + 3) out of 15 team goals = 67% importance

Goals Scored

Argentina 1
Argentina 2
Brazil 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Uruguay 1
Uruguay 2
Uruguay 3
Argentina 1
Argentina 2
Brazil 1

Great Chances Created
Uruguay 1
Uruguay 2
Uruguay 3
Uruguay 4
Sweden 1
Sweden 2
Bulgaria 1
Bulgaria 2
Bulgaria 3
Bulgaria 4
Argentina 1
Argentina 2
East Germany 1
Brazil 1
West Germany 1
West Germany 2

What a legend.

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Post by Harmonica on Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:26 pm

Pippo wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
Pippo wrote:Why don't you do Ronaldo in 2002?
He didn't win Golden Ball.
Oh, right. Stupid of me, I didn't even read the title. :facepalm:

Can you still do the comparison...for comparison's sake? hmm
Maybe after I've done the rest Golden Ball winners, as I want to make relation between them first.

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:11 am

Forlan WC10

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 O5CFJ1h

5 goals from 6 great scoring chances
12 great scoring chances created
7 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
0
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
9 (5 (1p) + 1 + 3) out of 11 team goals = 82% importance

Goals Scored
South Africa 1
South Africa 2
Ghana 1
Netherlands 1
Germany 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
France 1
France 2
Germany 1
Germany 2

Great Chances Created
South Africa 1
South Africa 2
Mexico 1
Mexico 2
Mexico 3
South Korea 1
South Korea 2
Ghana 1
Ghana 2
Ghana 3
Germany 1
Germany 2
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Post by Harmonica on Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:17 pm

Rossi WC82

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 LfsL1Vb

6 goals from 9 great scoring chances
5 great scoring chances created
10 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
2
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
9 (6 + 1 + 2) out of 12 team goals = 75% importance

Goals Scored
Brazil 1
Brazil 2
Brazil 3
Poland 1
Poland 2
West Germany 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Peru 1
Cameroon 1
Argentina 1
Brazil 1

Great Chances Greated
Italy 1
Cameroon 1
Argentina 1
Poland 1
West Germany 1
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Post by jibers on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:26 pm

Fußball wrote:I wouldn't have a problem with stats if they were flawless. However OPTA has a rigid definition and it leads to illogical consequences. For example they define a "chance created" (= "key pass") as "the final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate." So let me show you what this means on the pitch:

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 Wn5RJAv

^ This according to OPTA is a "chance created" by Messi. So Messi passing the ball sideways to Neymar who receives the ball outside the box with plent of defenders infront of him, dribbles a few meters laterally to buy himself some space against 2 defenders and then takes a shot from outside the box is a "chance created" by Messi according to strict statistical OPTA measurements.

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 IhYi3oMrmcw6e

^ This is Iniesta slicing the entire Italy defense open with an inch perfect throughball. This, according to OPTA, is not a "key pass". Because Fabregas passes the ball on to the goalscorer so Iniesta is not the last man to pass the ball before the shot is taken.

So according to OPTA you can have a situation where 1 player squares easy passes around the edge of the box for teammates to take shots "creating chance gallore" and another one who GENUINENLY opens up the pitch from deep, someone who literally makes a KEY pass as everyone understands the word "key" and "pass", getting 0 key passes. This is why Gareth Bale has the same amount of "key passes" as Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Modric last season by the way. Laughing



I would say Whoscored is not completely off the mark. There is a certain conformity between what you see and what Whoscored hands out as ratings and although getting for example 3 key passes, 3 dribbles and 1 goal shows that it can't have been a completely bad performance it doesn't necessarily mean it must have been a better performance than someone who had 2 key passes, 1 dribble and 0 goals.


Harmonica what's your response to this?

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Post by halamadrid2 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:57 pm

Must've taken fussball a week to write that but you are completely right. The stats some of the sites use are very flawed and doesn't tell you the full story which is why despite scoring more goals people appreciate Benzema more than Bale this season. I know it might be hard for them to collect the stats of every single player if they had to sit down and discuss what they'd consider a key pass and what not but at least they are consistent which is the most important thing
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Post by Harmonica on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:58 pm

@jibers wrote:
Harmonica what's your response to this?
I didn't use OPTA chances created in this evaluation, I watched every game, and evaluated every situation myself. Although you definitely can include OPTA chances created, in larger samples the individual differences tend to average themselves out.
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Post by guest_07 on Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:53 am

@Harmonica wrote:
@jibers wrote:
Harmonica what's your response to this?
I didn't use OPTA chances created in this evaluation, I watched every game, and evaluated every situation myself. Although you definitely can include OPTA chances created, in larger samples the individual differences tend to average themselves out.


i don't necessarily agree with you

but for you hard work, i salute to you

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Post by Harmonica on Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:00 pm

@guest_07 wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@jibers wrote:
Harmonica what's your response to this?
I didn't use OPTA chances created in this evaluation, I watched every game, and evaluated every situation myself. Although you definitely can include OPTA chances created, in larger samples the individual differences tend to average themselves out.

i don't necessarily agree with you

but for you hard work, i salute to you
Thanks.
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Post by Harmonica on Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:00 pm

Schillaci 90

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 XMDRbS5

6 goals from 13 great scoring chances
3 great scoring chances created
9 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
2
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
7 (6 (1p) + 1 + 0) out of 10 team goals = 70% importance

Goals Scored
Austria 1
Czechoslovakia 1
Uruguay 1
Ireland 1
Argentina 1
England 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
USA 1
Czechoslovakia 1
Czechoslovakia 2
Uruguay 1
Uruguay 2
Uruguay 3
Uruguay 4
Ireland 1
Ireland 2
England 1

Great Chances Created
Czechoslovakia 1
Czechoslovakia 2
England 1
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Post by Art Morte on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:36 am

I don't find it feasible to assign a controversy factor to Golden Ball winners, but got to give this thread 5/5 for its educational value and effort Thumbs up
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Post by Harmonica on Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:57 pm

Kempes 78

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 0W1viX5

6 goals from 7 great scoring chances
14 great scoring chances created
43 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
5
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
12 (6 + 2 + 4) out of 15 team goals = 80% importance

Goals Scored
Poland 1
Poland 2
Peru 1
Peru 2
Netherlands 1
Netherlands 2

Great Scoring Chances Missed
France 1
France 2
Italy 1
Poland 1

Great Chances Created
Hungary 1
Hungary 2
France 1
France 2
France 3
France 4
Poland 1
Poland 2
Peru 1
Peru 2
Peru 3
Peru 4
Netherlands 1
Netherlands 2
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Post by Harmonica on Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:17 pm

Started the non Golden Ball performance's.

Eusebio  WC66

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 VC24d6x

9 goals from 24 great scoring chances
12 great scoring chances created
35 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
10
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
12 (9 (4p) + 2 + 1) out of 17 team goals = 71% importance

Goals Scored
Bulgaria 1
Brazil 1
Brazil 2
North Korea 1
North Korea 2
North Korea 3
North Korea 4
England 1
Soviet Union 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Bulgaria 1
Bulgaria 2
Bulgaria 3
Brazil 1
Brazil 2
Brazil 3
Brazil 4
Brazil 5
Brazil 6
North Korea 1-5
England 1
Soviet Union 1

Great Chances Created
Hungary 1
Hungary 2
Bulgaria 1
Bulgaria 2
Brazil 1
Brazil 2
Brazil 3
North Korea 1
North Korea 2
North Korea 3
North Korea 4
England 1
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Post by Harmonica on Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:17 pm

I thought little of comparing Charlton to Eusebio in WC66 Golden Ball,

- Eusebio played better in rounds 1,3,4,6 and Charlton rounds 2,5. However overall difference is quite small, and Charlton played better in the head to head game, which is why Eusebio played for 3rd and Charlton in the final.

- Statistics. Goal scoring is quite even actually, 3 of the penalties Eusebio scored he didn't create which can be taken off the comparison. So Eusebio scored twice as many relative goals, but had 6 times as many great chances to score.

Chance's created on paper Charlton had twice as many, but most of those were not great chance's and in practice Eusebio created 3 times the great chance's. So advantage to Eusebio actually.

Charlton defended more, but I think Eusebio's advancing play with dribbling overshadows that with quite a lot.

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC66 (opta)

3 - 18 - 15 - 15 - Charlton
9 - 10 - 35 - 10 - Eusebio
4 - 9 - 22 - 17 - Beckenbauer

So for me Eusebio played better in the tournament and should have been ahead of Charlton in the Golden Ball.
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Post by Curtinho on Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:59 pm

So, based on this so far is Cruyff the goat Golden Ball?

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Post by Harmonica on Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:47 pm

El Cujo wrote:So, based on this so far is Cruyff the goat Golden Ball?
This is the current ranking,

Golden Ball performance index, considering round by round performance, statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver or bronze ball.

1.
Maradona 86
Messi 14

3.
Kempes 78
4.
Cruyff 74
5.
Forlan 10
6.
Romario 94
7.
Eusebio 66
Pele 70
Rossi 82

10.
Schillaci 90
11.
Charlton 66
12.
Ronaldo 98
13.
Zidane 06


I have about 100 page argument in another site on the subject.
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Post by Harmonica on Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:30 pm

Jairzinho WC70

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 V7N5PkO

7 goals from 6 great scoring chances
9 great scoring chances created
47 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
4
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
11 (7 + 1 + 3) out of 19 team goals = 58% importance

Goals Scored
Czechoslovakia 1
Czechoslovakia 2
England 1
Romania 1
Peru 1
Uruguay 1
Italy 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Czechoslovakia 1
England 1
Peru 1
Uruguay 1

Great Chances Created
England 1
Romania 1
Romania 2
Peru 1
Peru 2
Uruguay 1
Uruguay 2
Italy 1
Italy 2
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Post by Harmonica on Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:30 pm

Jairzinho's goal scoring and dribbling was almost identical of Messi's, scored more goals based the chances he should had, and advanced the play by dribbling more than anyone in the tournament. But it isn't as good as Messi, because it's less important performance, and he created less scoring chances, and defended less.

But compared to Pele it's easily better one, Jairzinho played better in 4 rounds, only against Romania and Italy were they as good. Both were part 11 goals of 19 Brazil scored. And although he didn't put as much in creating and defending department, the margin in goal scoring in relation to chance's and dribbling is a massive one. This makes Pele's Golden Ball look really bizarre one, and what's even more bizarre is that Jairzinho wasn't even Top 3. In the old days it was more about marketability and hype, rather than the actual perfomance's. Which is quite logical as papers and the sport needed legends, and people didn't have video evidence to see through those as they can nowadays.

Round by round performance it's 3rd best overall, but Kempes produced slightly more quality and was a lot more important overall, so I give advantage for him.

World Cup performance index, considering round by round performance, statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver,  bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

1.
Maradona 86
Messi 14

3.
Kempes 78
4.
Jairzinho 70
5.
Cruyff 74
6.
Forlan 10
7.
Romario 94
8.
Eusebio 66
Pele 70
Rossi 82

11.
Schillaci 90
12.
Charlton 66
13.
Ronaldo 98
14.
Zidane 06
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Post by Art Morte on Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:12 pm

I gotta admit that I didn't know who Jairzinho was, but enjoying those gifs right now :bow:

#wildfridaynight
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Post by futbol on Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:48 pm

Is it just by browser that doesn't open the gifs in the browser immediately like other Harmonica gifs and wants to download them first instead (because of size I guess)? It's annoying to download them one for one.

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Post by Harmonica on Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:38 am

It would be too much to download in the same page, if you're using chrome there's plugin linkclump which allows you opening multiple links at the same time. I'm sure there's extensions as such for every browser.
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Post by Cruijf on Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:06 pm

Are you using chrome? If not that's your first problem Razz

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Post by futbol on Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:59 pm

Firefox. Sad

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:22 am

Ronaldo WC02

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 5 AybODkm

8 goals from 27 great scoring chances
10 great scoring chances created
11 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
4
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
9 (8 + 1 + 0) out of 17 team goals = 53% importance

Goals Scored
Turkey 1
China 1
Costa Rica 1
Costa Rica 2
Belgium 1
Turkey 1
Germany 1
Germany 2

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Turkey 1
Turkey 2
China 1
Costa Rica 1
Costa Rica 2
Costa Rica 3
Costa Rica 4
Costa Rica 5
Costa Rica 6
Belgium 1
Belgium 2
Belgium 3
Belgium 4
England 1
England 2
England 3
Turkey 1
Germany 1
Germany 2
Germany 3

Great Chances Greated
Turkey 1
Turkey 2
China 1
Costa Rica 1
Belgium 1
England 1
England 2
Turkey 1
Turkey 2
Turkey 3
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Post by Harmonica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:22 am

Round by round it's not as good as Romario 94/Rossi 82, nor Eusebio 66/Pele 70 to the 6th round.

Compared to Ronaldo 98, Ronaldo 02 scored more, but mostly because his team created more chance's for him, Ronaldo 02 scored slightly worse ratio 8 from 27 great chance's than Ronaldo 98 (4/12), and they are almost as important, 53% vs 50%. Ronaldo 98 dribbled more, but created less chance's. Ronaldo 98 it's almost identical performance to the final, the final performance setting them apart, and I think it equals Charlton's 66 performance overall.

I've to tell you I can understand the reason why Khan was voted for Golden Ball even without watching his performance, if he was amazing. It was done before final, and Ronaldo didn't impress me, and even in the final Ronaldo missed 2 1on1's against Khan, so it's pretty even performance in the final also.

World Cup performance index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

1.
Maradona 86
Messi 14

3.
Kempes 78
4.
Jairzinho 70

5.
Cruyff 74
6.
Forlan 10
7.
Romario 94
8.
Eusebio 66
Pele 70
Rossi 82

11.
Schillaci 90
12.
Ronaldo 02
Charlton 66
14.
Ronaldo 98
15.
Zidane 06
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