Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966

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Post by Harmonica on Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:20 pm

No, actually we're not getting anywhere.

Again,we are talking best individual player performance here, not how much somebody made somebody else magically play better.

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Post by Kick on Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:21 am

Well we've removed Kahn, so that is progress.

Did you ever play football?
I use to, and in one of my last seasons, I was a CB and my team captain. I had this GK who was piss poor, couldn't stop a shot and couldn't kick a ball properly to save him. my defence and I knew this, we adapted our game around this, and I would clear anything and everything regardless of whether my GK made a call to get it or not. Then, about 5 games into the season, we got a new GK, a very good one, one I had played with before a knew well.

He was great with his feet and a fantastic shot stopper. The confidence he brought to my defence and myself was incredible, and because of it, we all played better, which meant we conceded less goals. Not because he was saving everything the other GK couldn't save but because the entire defence was playing better with the knowledge that we've got a good GK to back us up if we made a mistake.

All the parents could see this change, and more than once told us about it.

Now, let me ask you this, surely, as an educated football fan, you would be able to see a similar change from the influence of one player?

And if you can see it, surely, whoever votes on these awards can see it, therefore, surely, this has an effect on the winner?

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:45 pm

So somebody better made you have more confidence? Are you for real? It's not that the other player made you play better, it's the fact that you were hampered by the other player. Players are their own personal people, they all have different behavior, it's not like some guy from nowhere will make everyone automatically better than they are. Surely if you've played football, you understand that it's not other people who's supposed to magically make you play better, it's the tactics which is supposed to make team function better? Again we are not talking team edge here, we're talking individual edge here.

What we do know that no player in history has affected other teams tactics as much as Messi, and who had to sacrifice their own game more.
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Post by Clockwork Orange on Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:35 am

I feel that Robben was the best player in the world cup. Lionel Messi was the second best after Robben.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:01 am

@Clockwork Orange wrote:I feel that Robben was the best player in the world cup. Lionel Messi was the second best after Robben.
Why? Robben scored less, created less, dribbled less, defended less, wasn't as important, as marked, and had more space and time than Messi?
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Post by Clockwork Orange on Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:06 am

@Harmonica wrote:
@Clockwork Orange wrote:I feel that Robben was the best player in the world cup. Lionel Messi was the second best after Robben.
Why? Robben scored less, created less, dribbled less, defended less, wasn't as important, as marked, and had more space and time than Messi?

I just feel that Robben performed better within the parameters of the system laid down by Louis van Gaal. Lionel Messi looked lethargic in a lot of games. Robben worked hard and ran a lot and worked harder for us while Lionel Messi was walking about the pitch lackadaisically when Argentina were dispossessed.

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Post by Bankz on Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:11 am

Lets face it, these awards are given to certain players based on percieved clutchness (especially in big games), not some meaningless statistics no one cares about. And lol at comparing ronaldo 98/02 zidane 06 and maradona 86 to messi 2014..just give up already, if anything, messi is the only controversial winner here.
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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:15 am

@Clockwork Orange wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@Clockwork Orange wrote:I feel that Robben was the best player in the world cup. Lionel Messi was the second best after Robben.
Why? Robben scored less, created less, dribbled less, defended less, wasn't as important, as marked, and had more space and time than Messi?

I just feel that Robben performed better within the parameters of the system laid down by Louis van Gaal. Lionel Messi looked lethargic in a lot of games. Robben worked hard and ran a lot and worked harder for us while Lionel Messi was walking about the pitch lackadaisically when Argentina were dispossessed.
Feel has nothing to do it. If you can't argue why it was better directly then you don't have rational argument.

Funny thing you say Robben was working harder when team were dispossessed. Messi had 11 tackles and 2 interceptions to Robben's 2 tackles and 1 interception.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:41 am

Messi WC14

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 3 291kt95

4 goals from 3 great scoring chances
17 great scoring chances created
46 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
11 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals =  88% importance (+1 SO goal)

Goals Scored
Bosnia And Hertzegovina 1
Iran 1
Nigeria 1
Nigeria 2

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Belgium 1
Germany 1

Great Chances Greated
Bosnia 1
Bosnia 2
Bosnia 3
Iran 1
Nigeria 1
Nigeria 2
Switzerland 1
Switzerland 2
Switzerland 3
Switzerland 4
Belgium 1
Belgium 2
Belgium 3
Netherlands 1
Netherlands 2
Netherlands 3
Germany 1


Last edited by Harmonica on Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:41 am

Ronaldo WC98

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 3 Ronaldo2

4 goals from 12 great scoring chances
4 great scoring chances created
16 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
3
tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
7 (4 + 3 + 0) out of 14 team goals = 50% importance (+ 1 SO goal)

Goals Scored

Morocco 1
Chile 1
Chile 2
Netherlands 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Norway 1
Chile 1
Chile 2
Denmark 1
Netherlands 1
Netherlands 2
Netherlands 3
Netherlands 4
France 1

Great Chances Created
Morocco 1
Norway 1
Denmark 1
Denmark 2


Last edited by Harmonica on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:48 am; edited 3 times in total
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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:41 am

Romario WC94

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 3 Romario1

5 goals from 17 great scoring chances
7 great scoring chances created
25 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
1 tackle (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
8 (5 + 3 + 0) out of 11 team goals = 73% importance (+ 1 SO goal)

Goals Scored
Russia 1
Cameroon 1
Sweden 1
Netherlands 1
Sweden 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Russia 1
Cameroon 1
Sweden 1
USA 1
USA 2
USA 3
Netherlands 1
Netherlands 2
Sweden 1
Sweden 2
Sweden 3
Italy 1
Italy 2

Great Chances Created
Russia 1
Russia 2
Cameroon 1
USA 1
Netherlands 1
Sweden 1
Italy 1

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:45 am

As shown here, example Ronaldo 98 and Romario 94 are not even remotely close Messi 14 in overall performance.
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Post by Harmonica on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:36 pm

Pele WC70

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4 goals from 16 great scoring chances
14 great scoring chances created
16 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
9 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
11 (4 + 6 + 1) out of 19 team goals =  58% importance

Goals Scored

Czechoslovakia 1
Romania 1
Romania 2
Italy 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed

Czechoslovakia 1
Czechoslovakia 2
England 1
Peru 1
Peru 2
Peru 3
Peru 4
Uruguay 1
Uruguay 2
Uruguay 3
Italy 1
Italy 2
Italy 3

Great Chances Created

Czechoslovakia 1
Czechoslovakia 2
Czechoslovakia 3
England 1
Romania 1
Peru 1
Peru 2
Peru 3
Peru 4
Uruguay 1
Uruguay 2
Italy 1
Italy 2
Italy 3
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:56 pm

If your life mission is to get people to badmouth Messi, to spite your obnoxiousness, you're doing a great job Thumbs up

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:59 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:If your life mission is to get people to badmouth Messi, to spite your obnoxiousness, you're doing a great job Thumbs up
Fanboys will always badmouth no matter what, but what I can do is to show how ignorant they really are. Because truth is always in my side.

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Post by RealGunner on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:59 pm

Not going to join in this debate but that's some fantastic work with the profiles Harmonica. At least people can enjoy the goals if anything lol.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:21 am

Jesus I didn't notice - the goals are linked as gifs

Harmonica :bow: nice work I take everything back, nothing obnoxious about that

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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:53 pm

Maradona WC86

Most controversial World Cup Golden Ball's since 1966 - Page 3 Maradona

5 goals from 7 great scoring chances
17 great scoring chances created
53 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
11 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
11 (5 + 5 + 1) out of 14 team goals =  79% importance

Goals Scored
Italy 1
England 1
England 2
Belgium 1
Belgium 2

Great Scoring Chances Missed
South Korea 1
Uruguay 1
Belgium 1
Germany 1

Great Chances Created
South Korea 1
South Korea 2
South Korea 3
South Korea 4
Italy 1
Bulgaria 1
Uruguay 1
Uruguay 2
Uruguay 3
Uruguay 4
England 1
Belgium 1
Belgium 2
Belgium 3
Belgium 4
Germany 1
Germany 2
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Post by Harmonica on Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:54 pm

Messi 14 and Maradona 86 are rather similar performance's, where as Maradona provided more perceived quality, he had more space and time to do so. Both however are well beyond Pele 70.

Current ranking based on provided relative statistic, importance and performance comparison:

1. Maradona 86/Messi 14
3. Romario 94
4. Pele 70
5. Ronaldo 98

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Post by Harmonica on Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:35 pm

World Cup Golden Ball "Right hand man's" Ranking

Goals/Shots - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC

7/12 - 13 - 47 - 4 - Jairzinho 70
5/26 - 9 - 19 - 9 - Neeskens 74
5/18 - 8 - 7 - 7 - Klose 02
3/15 - 18 - 17 - 6 - Rivaldo 98
3/20 - 18 - 12 - 4 - Bebeto 94
4/11 - 5 - 23 - 2 - Luque 78
4/18 - 5 - 13 - 7 - Valdano 86
4/15 - 9 - 5 - 3 - Hurst 66
3/18 - 12 - 20 - 1 - Henry 06
3/23 - 10 - 7 - 3 - Suarez 10
1/10 - 25 - 9 - 3 - Giannini 90
1/13 - 15 - 17 - 14 - Conti 82
1/24 - 11 - 25 - 7 - Di Maria 14


Last edited by Harmonica on Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:53 pm

Klose 02 you mean .. ?

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Post by FilthyLuca on Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:26 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@Clockwork Orange wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
Why? Robben scored less, created less, dribbled less, defended less, wasn't as important, as marked, and had more space and time than Messi?

I just feel that Robben performed better within the parameters of the system laid down by Louis van Gaal. Lionel Messi looked lethargic in a lot of games. Robben worked hard and ran a lot and worked harder for us while Lionel Messi was walking about the pitch lackadaisically when Argentina were dispossessed.
Feel has nothing to do it. If you can't argue why it was better directly then you don't have rational argument.

Funny thing you say Robben was working harder when team were dispossessed. Messi had 11 tackles and 2 interceptions to Robben's 2 tackles and 1 interception.


where did you get the stats from?

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Post by titosantill on Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:15 pm

stats don't tell the whole story in football....stats are like prisoners, you torture them well enough and they'll confess to anything. messi's a good player, but anyone who watched usa 94, and mexico 86 knows u cannot compare what he did with those other players...i personally was more impressed by arjen robben even though he doesn't have the stats to back him up, he felt like a threat every time he had the ball
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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:42 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:Klose 02 you mean .. ?
Yes.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:43 pm

@FilthyLuca wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@Clockwork Orange wrote:

I just feel that Robben performed better within the parameters of the system laid down by Louis van Gaal. Lionel Messi looked lethargic in a lot of games. Robben worked hard and ran a lot and worked harder for us while Lionel Messi was walking about the pitch lackadaisically when Argentina were dispossessed.
Feel has nothing to do it. If you can't argue why it was better directly then you don't have rational argument.

Funny thing you say Robben was working harder when team were dispossessed. Messi had 11 tackles and 2 interceptions to Robben's 2 tackles and 1 interception.


where did you get the stats from?
http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/247/Tournaments/36/Seasons/3768/Stages/10274/PlayerStatistics/International-FIFA-World-Cup-2014

Their source is OPTA.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:45 pm

@titosantill wrote:stats don't tell the whole story in football....stats are like prisoners, you torture them well enough and they'll confess to anything. messi's a good player, but anyone who watched usa 94, and mexico 86 knows u cannot compare what he did with those other players...i personally was more impressed by arjen robben even though he doesn't have the stats to back him up, he felt like a threat every time he had the ball
That's what it is, excitement, because Robben excites you, it clouds your judgement and you feel it's better. That's how most football fans base their rankings, how it made them feel. Again, feel has nothing to do with judging quality. Quality is something that can be directly and rationally evaluated from concrete evidence, videos, statistics and so on.
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