rivaldo vs zidane

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rivaldo vs zidane - Page 2 Empty Re: rivaldo vs zidane

Post by titosantill Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:44 am

Bankz wrote:Lol, some of you guys on here are funny. 1.Now while zidane was probably the better player over time, zidane has never, is not and will never be a top 10 player of all-time on an individual level. 2.zidane even while at his best, never had absolute domination at any point in football like R9, maradona, cruyff, messi, ronaldinho just to name a few. 3.zidane is one of the most inconsistent player of all time if anyone actually watched him play week in week out save for those international tournaments of which he only had a dominant tournament in euro 2000 and wc 2006 only.. 4.zidane world player awards were all very debatable from 1998, 2000, to 2003. Now let me shock you guys, In the 1998 wc zidane didn't even have a great wc, he just had a great final and that was down to the ronaldo seizure incident the day before the final where he almost lost he's life, he's name was even omitted from the squad hours to the final before magically appearing on the field from the hospital due to pressure from nike and from ronaldo himself according to zagallo, and you think that didn't have an effect on the brazilian squad? 5. Zidane is one of those players that people like to love no matter what he did or he's short-comings. One goal from 30yards and people wankfest on it while forgetting he's being crap from the last 10 games. 6.Rivaldo at least had stats and the eye test on his side and while it's poor to judge players on stats sorely, zidane was as poor as they came even far worse than iniesta of today and that says a lot about a supposed goat (some of his best seasons he had like 5 goals and 7 assists in real). 7.Rivaldo suffered what is happening to cr7 today, being born in the ronaldo (R9) era as that severely limited his percieved greatness 8.zidane was born in the luckiest era in the whole of french football history as a group.(taking nothing away from him though, with the 2006 wc being a case in point). 9. Zidanes greatness is only a some total of its parts as his career at the top top level was really long. That i give to him. 10 in zidane's defence, he was a better performer in big games throughout he's career, not that rivaldo was a scrub but zidane's is probably 'more' well documented and more clutch in my eyes. 11.while players like prime R9, maradona, ronaldinho, messi would dominate football today, guys like zizou would struggle to make it into the top 10 to be honest. so imo, zidane is better, but not in the 2-5 levels way some of you are making it seem like,individually they are pretty much on thesame level, rivaldo was more like di maria always on he's best form,while zidane was exactly like ozil (with less assists) but more decisive and more clutch in big games..so, zidane is better yes, but not sorely down to talent, unlike a case of messi and cr7..


It is easy to downplay what a person has done once they've retired. at that point we start using terms like "if", "should", "could". i'm not into the top ten debate because its useless in football. goal keepers, defenders are valuable too. even top tens based on positions are difficult to measure over time.

when zidane was playing though, he was a terror, today people complain and say things like "x disappeared in the big games", "y cannot score in clutch moments", "z disappears in tough games", you are critiquing the man for his performances at the grandest of stages? stages where a lot of his peers shrunk and disappeared? talk about a player without stage fright....and your argument that zidane would not be a good player today makes little sense, we have no proof to come to such a conclusion.

Your second point- "zidane didn't have absolute domination". non of those players you mentioned had absolute domination, not even messi, but he's the closest. maradona did NOT have absolute domination, i'm old enough to have seen him play, and when he played the debate was diego, zico, platini or rummenigge...i rank diego higher than anyone i've seen, but his status grew when him and all those guys retired. R9 did NOT have absolute domination, he was a fantastic individual player, won very very little taking into account the talent he had, and besides his years at barcelona and psv, during his inter and madrid years, especially at madrid more strikers came out who may not have had his skill set but were just as effective if not more

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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:45 am

Bankz wrote:Danny the game you speak about against denmark hope you remember that while rivaldo scored two goals, it was ronaldo who gave him the 2 assists in that game and ronaldo was the best player on the pitch (i think he was given the man of the match award, but yeah it was between the two) in that 3-2 win over denmark..i get your point though as you were trying to defend rivaldo in perspective while someone tried to discredit him..it's just that i also wanted to point out a fact so we give everyone their due..#Respect.


Thats true, Ronaldo did play his part. He was great the whole tournament minus the final obviously, his performance was nothing short of inspirational in fact. But yes, as you know, I am merely pointing out it was not a 1 man team as shown in that game, other players gave great contributions.
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Post by titosantill Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:29 pm

Your point 5- you critique zidane for stepping up in large tournaments and clutch moments, but i bet you have criticized other players who fail to shine in these moments but run rampant against the sheffields, nottinghams, cagliaris and numancias of this world....zidane wasn't a goal scorer, watch old tapes of his, not clips, the man was a midfield general if i ever saw one. nowadays we are spoiled with stats and wikipedia. people look at those and arrive at the conclusion that zidane was inconsistent....rui costa had a season where he scored 1 goal, 1 goal all through for ac milan, when they won the ucl in 03....if you watched him week in week out u know what that man brought to that milan team

i'm not going to talk about balon d'ors- every year there is a major argument why x won and y didn't win...i could care less about such awards that we cannot accurately measure. hell, in 02 many could argue that others where more deserving of balon d'or than el phenomeno

as for the 98 world cup, ronaldo(the original), healthy or not has never beat zidane...zidane's team always bested ronaldo's or played to a draw, even in serie a whilst they were at juve and inter. (i may be wrong on this, inter may have won, but not more than once, that i am sure of). ifs and or buts, what matters is at the 98 final someone scored twice, talk about stepping up in a big game, yet we complain when others don't, but when others do, we look for ways to discredit them.

your next point, if you are referring to zizou's leverkusen volley as people forgetting his previous games in that ucl tournament...he played perfect in that final, was amazing in the semis against barcelona and in the quarter final second leg against effenberg's bayern munich ....rivaldo obviously has the stats, its not rocket science, he was a forward. him and raul were in the running for pichichi for like 2 or 3 straight years. at barcelona he played with kluivert up front until van gaal started plying to move him out wide, which caused their feud

zidane at juve played behind inzaghi and del piero, at one point vieri and del piero, trez and del piero, @ madrid morientes and raul, and later ronaldo and raul where in front of him...rivaldo also took pks and free kicks. zidane was the main set piece taker only in france....he took very few in his times at madrid and juve combined compared to rivaldo at barcelona....its like comparing the stats of van pearsie to xavi/iniesta .....and there's more to a midfielders game than assists....zizou made his teammates better, linked up play, set up and called plays on the pitch; because he didnt give the last pass to the person who scored doesn't mean he wasn't a play maker....anyone who watched him LIVE knows this

rivaldo did NOT suffer from being in r9 era, because it wasn't R9's era....if i'm not mistaken, rivaldo has even won more team trophies(with barcelona and milan, i'm not counting his greek trophies at olympiakos) than ronaldo....so i don't get how he suffered from r9. r9 did NOT dominate the era, he had amazing individual years at psv and barca, but rivaldo even won more competitive league titles than he did...so, stop lying

zidane was born in the luckiest era for french football- every body has their time, not every one takes advantage...argentina currently are in their best era when it comes to strikers, they haven't won shit. the dutch had amazing players in the 90s-00s, they won shit; the dutch had an amazing era with cruyff, they won ZERO. the dutch had van basten, gullit, riijkard, they won a euro cup and didn't go far in any other tournament. argentina had a side that featured batigol, ortega, diego simeone, zanetti, redondo etc, they did well in south america, but ZERO at the world stage. the hungarian team of puskas, kocsis and hidegkuti were lauded as the best during their time, they won ZERO.....not zidane's fault that not only did his team win but he played a major role

and lets not forget, he retired once, and they almost didn't make it to the 06 world cup, until he came back, or have we CONVENIENTLY forgotten about that? where theirry henry said "god is back" upon hearing of zizou's return to les bleus

once again I don't buy into top ten arguments, but zizou would play well in any era; his form of football was not based on speed or physicality. any striker would absolutely have loved to play alongside him...i can imagine this real madrid team with zizou behind cristiano bale and benzema, with carlo ancelotti as coach or even under mourinho's real and u think he would flop? that's just asinine .....the man has paid his dues, and rivaldo for the record was an amazing player too, but as i said before, he was a luxury, zizou a necessity....if most people are starting a team and had to pick between zizou and rivaldo, most, even brazilian fans who called zidane "the wizard" and barcelona fans will go for zizou.....milan fans will definitely go wit zizou. rivaldo was utter garbage over there
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Post by Bankz Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:51 pm

@titto where did i bash zidane for being clutch in big games? Didn't i give it to him as a positive? Didn't i admit he was better than rivaldo? What's your problem when i say that 'x' player had absolute domination? When i made that statement, i meant that at that point that they where the absolute best and most talented individually without debates or arguments..are u saying ronaldinho didn't absolutely dominate in he's peak? Are u saying messi didn't dominate in he's peak? Are u saying pre-injury R9 didn't absolutely dominate in he's peak? Cruyff too? Weren't they all football yardsticks? Were they ever debatable? like e.g saying cr7 is the best in the world today and still find numerous players and coaches annonymously saying messi is the best? you say ronaldo (R9) won so little, now, since when has it become the yardstick to judge players based on collective trophies won? Btw, the topic is based on individual talent and genius and of which pre-injury R9 absolutely dominated & it wasn't even close,(till that faithful night in paris) and he still remains one of the best ever strictly on talent and genius holding he's own with maradona,pele,cruyff,and messi ..was r9 in madrid ever in his peak? Did he not just come back from 2 career threatning injuries that lasted almost two years? and didn't that same "one legged, finished" R9 win a world cup while being the top scorer and won the wpoty and ballon d'or as a result? Still, as a result of those injuries, didn't he suffer hypotheroidsm issues from then on? even coming 3rd to henry and zizou the following year? in one of the most debatable wpoty awards since in it's history? And to set the record straight, R9 won every single thing individually for club and country and i mean every single individual award (as thats what this topic is about) for the national team he won every collective trophy bar non and won every and any individual award with the national team..the only thing he never won was the champions league and multiple legue titles...and by your logic we can safely say that ibra is a better club player than henry since he won more for club..like i said, collective trophies are not accurate measurements for measuring player performance, they only tell half the story..u argue inteligently though moreso when u don't make use of insults to prove a point, it shows maturity on your part..
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Post by Bankz Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:32 pm

@titto Just praised u 4 not using insults and u go ahead and call me a liar? lol, anyway wether other teams failed to take advantage of their best team is irrelevant, but does it still remove the fact that he was in the best french generation? It doest. he took advantage kudos to him..but where did i tell a lie? Still waiting..if u actually read my post, didn't i acknowledge he dominated the 2006 wc to his credit? Thus, not putting he's entire success on a lucky generation? More so mr titto, there is a difference between the best team "individually" and a talented "group" which zidane played for in he's peak years, sure, being in the best group especially isn't a guaranteed determinant but it sure helps, or does it not?..another thing is, are u in all honesty saying zidane wasn't inconsistent? Lol. Again when i talk about rivaldo and ronaldo i expect the reader to employ common sense to understand that i was talking about the brazilian national team as R9 completely outshined him to no end even if they won almost same trophies, R9 9 out of 10 times took deserved glory even though rivaldo was also vital in his own right too (from copa america 97 to 99 to wc 98 to 2006 to confed cup 97 and down to their wc qualifiers performance 00/01 vs 04/05 and u cant deny that it took much away from he's supposed greatness. doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. Most importantly if u actually read what i wrote you'd notice that i was arguing in the light of those people saying that zidane was 5 levels above rivaldo, which is utterly untrue..and finally,if u really took your time to read what i posted you see the tiny bit where i said that zidane was the superior player, or is it that hard to figure out? Now, if u will say that u read it at all, then what's your argument for? Cause i pretty much covered everything u posted..All i was doing was merely letting some know that zidane had short-comings too
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Post by titosantill Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:49 pm

what do you mean by 'dominate'? i said the closest person to dominating out of all those names was messi...i still don't know about r9 dominating. i don't want to get into that cos that's another debate on its own....i personally considered romario better than r9....there's the difference between us. I don't really rate individual awards aside from top scorer awards, and that's because they are measurable, and i only bring those up if the debate is about strikers, not strikers vs midfielders

and i never thought about ibra and henry, but i think i kinda prefer ibra to thierry...haven't really thought about that debate though, maybe another thread

but i watched ronaldo when he just got to europe, beast of a player but i dunno about dominant, if u say he was dominant in 1996, i'll probably say yeah, i understand your logic between team trophies and individual; i also feel sometimes its wrong to rate based on that if they aren't in the same era. but, if they are in the same era, then it is a fair assessment to some degree especially if they are both main men on their teams with similar level of support in terms of teammates ....on an individual i give r9 his props, but i always had my reservations, as i mentioned, i preferred romario. true zidane isn't going to dribble a whole team and score, but there's a lot more to football than that...

i was thinking the thread was who was a better overall footballer between rivaldo and zidane; trophies excluded, i'd still give it to zidane, the skill set zidane had was perfect for the position he played on the pitch. rivaldo was very skillful but let's even look at the BASIC fundamentals; rivaldo's use of the rabona was to make up for his lackluster/weak right foot....zidane was magic with both feet, scored some of his best goals with his left, and hardly took to ground despite not being pacy. he wouldn't do one million step overs, but 1 out of 3 times they'd work (not a bad ratio at all)

as mentioned, i don't care for world player of the year and balon d'ors and i feel they should either ban them or find a reasonable way to select winners and candidates. it is almost a crime that maldini, roberto carlos, steffan effenberg (who had some fantastic years at bayern), just to name a few, have never won any of such awards....i consider balon d'or, wpoty as marketing tools....i don't rate players based on these so called awards
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Post by titosantill Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:51 pm

Bankz wrote:@titto Just praised u 4 not using insults and u go ahead and call me a liar? lol, anyway wether other teams failed to take advantage of their best team is irrelevant, but does it still remove the fact that he was in the best french generation? It doest. he took advantage kudos to him..but where did i tell a lie? Still waiting..if u actually read my post, didn't i acknowledge he dominated the 2006 wc to his credit? Thus, not putting he's entire success on a lucky generation? More so mr titto, there is a difference between the best team "individually" and a talented "group" which zidane played for in he's peak years, sure, being in the best group especially isn't a guaranteed determinant but it sure helps, or does it not?..another thing is, are u in all honesty saying zidane wasn't inconsistent? Lol. Again when i talk about rivaldo and ronaldo i expect the reader to employ common sense to understand that i was talking about the brazilian national team as R9 completely outshined him to no end even if they won almost same trophies, R9 9 out of 10 times took deserved glory even though rivaldo was also vital in his own right too (from copa america 97 to 99 to wc 98 to 2006 to confed cup 97 and down to their wc qualifiers performance 00/01 vs 04/05 and u cant deny that it took much away from he's supposed greatness. doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. Most importantly if u actually read what i wrote you'd notice that i was arguing in the light of those people saying that zidane was 5 levels above rivaldo, which is utterly untrue..and finally,if u really took your time to read what i posted you see the tiny bit where i said that zidane was the superior player, or is it that hard to figure out? Now, if u will say that u read it at all, then what's your argument for? Cause i pretty much covered everything u posted..All i was doing was merely letting some know that zidane had short-comings too



lol my apologies about the "stop lying" comment, i know people who try to discredit players by making stuff up, and wrongfully assumed that was your tactic
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Post by Bankz Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:25 pm

Mr titto i read your last posts, i found that you use knowledge & objectivity to butress your point, which in all honesty i respect and agree with even if we see things a tiny bit differently..but, titto u do agree with me that some people here try to make it sound like rivaldo was some wilshere level player by saying he's some 5 levels above, which is in itself cringe-worthy and just like u i also do not believe in stats and do not believe that the wpoty is the be all ends all too and while i do not want it to be scrapped, i want a better parameter to be employed in giving the award as opposed to this marketing sham it has become..on topic, zidane is superior to rivaldo but please people while we argue, lets try and keep things accurate regardless of who we take sides with.. (maybe we should really consider an ibra vs henry thread) #big hugs to titto for staying classy too.
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Post by Bankz Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:36 pm

Mr titto i read your last posts, i found that you use knowledge & objectivity to butress your point, which in all honesty i respect and agree with even if we see things a tiny bit differently..but, titto u do agree with me that some people here try to make it sound like rivaldo was some wilshere level player by saying he's some 5 levels above, which is in itself cringe-worthy and just like u i also do not believe in stats and do not believe that the wpoty is the be all ends all too and while i do not want it to be scrapped, i want a better parameter to be employed in giving the award as opposed to this marketing sham it has become..on topic, zidane is superior to rivaldo but please people while we argue, lets try and keep things accurate regardless of who we take sides with.. (maybe we should really consider an ibra vs henry thread) #big hugs to titto for staying classy too.
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Post by titosantill Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:51 pm

rivaldo was no scrub, in fact he was elite at depor and barcelona but that's how football is...few players define an era, and when players from that era retire, no matter how good they were, fortunately or unfortunately discussions will be limited to an even smaller group of that era....cruyff had kempes, muller, beckenbauer, camacho etc but people focus mainly on cruyff. diego had zico, platini, mathaus, rummenigae, ruud gullit etc but people hardly talk about the others...same with zizou n ronaldo, who had figo vieri rivaldo effenberg, hell even mendieta was absolute world class once upon a time but the focus will be on zizou and ronaldo and the same will probably happen when cristiano and messi retire....although fans of those two will do all they can to downplay the others achievements...comes with the whole territory i guess
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Post by farfan Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:34 pm

just shut it you too .

you basically killed this thread with your boring , unorganized , verbal diarrhea .
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Post by futbol Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:58 pm

Rivaldo.

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Post by farfan Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:22 am

Fußball wrote:Rivaldo.


you already said that in the first page Laughing
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Post by LeSwagg James Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:52 pm

.


Last edited by LeSwagg James on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LeSwagg James Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:52 pm

sportsczy wrote:  Zidane was considered the best from 1997 until 2004.


calmthefxcka bro
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Post by futbol Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:15 pm

Schmeichel (ex-Man United): "Most dangerous striker I faced? Definitely Rivaldo - one season he scored six goals in three games against me!"

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Post by Doc Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:16 am

Franz Beckenbauer wrote:Zidane is one of the greatest players in history, a truly magnificent player.
Every player makes these sort of remarks my friend, doesn't really answer much though.

Strange comparison honestly since I never at any point in my life asked myself "who is better?". We are talking about two legends whose ability on the ball and off of it were just amazing. So on a truly bias note, Zidane would win it for me but only because Rivaldo played for Barcelona and Zidane for Real Madrid. I found both to be amazing players when I were young(er).

Rivaldo was certainly God damn better than Kaka though...
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Post by Pip Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:18 am

sportsczy wrote:Zidane was considered the best from 1997 until 2004.
sportsczy wrote:At his peak, he was 2-3 levels better than Rivaldo too.
sportsczy wrote:Rivaldo was fantastic.... but he was basically Kaka.
sportsczy wrote:Only reason Zidane didn't win it in 1999 was that he started slow after all the WC celebrations (like most WC winning players) and then got injured.

What the *bleep* is wrong with you?

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Post by Pip Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:34 am

The adoration that Zidane had received in the latter stages of his career and post-retirement is unbearable. This is a guy who's reputation robbed not one, not two, but three World Player of the Year awards from far more deserving players.

Between 1997-2001, I'd say Zidane was the 3rd best footballer around. I'd put Rivaldo and Luís Figo far ahead of him at club level, Rivaldo just behind Zidane at international level.

Unbelievably overrated footballer.

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Post by Zealous Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:03 am

If this was a pick up game and I had to pick one I would say Zidane. He was a general on the field and in his prime he was genuinely a notch above every one else.

Having said that Rivaldo is no slouch. That guy was a beast in his prime and one of Brazil's best ever players.

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Post by Valkyrja Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:13 am

97-99 Ronaldo was the best lol. Not Zidane, not Rivaldo, not Figo.
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Post by Robespierre Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:18 am

Valkyrja wrote:97-99 Ronaldo was the best lol. Not Zidane, not Rivaldo, not Figo.
agreed.
and not because I am unbiased about it :coffee:
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Post by Bankz Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:24 pm

Lol, ronaldo 96-99. Unquestionably. Until the injury happened.
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Post by Pip Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:21 pm

How many matches did Ronaldo play from 1999-2001? Around 50 or so, his injuries were the reason I left him out of that. Rivaldo was consistently brilliant from 1997-2001, as was Figo. Figo's best form coincided with Rivaldo's and they both were brilliant in the international tournaments at the turn of the millennium (Copa América 1999, EURO 2000).

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rivaldo vs zidane - Page 2 Empty Re: rivaldo vs zidane

Post by Valkyrja Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:34 pm

He played around 20 matches between 99-02. but you can't say that between 97-01 Figo and Rivaldo were that best because between 95-99 Ronaldo was heads above everyone. 99-01 yes.
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rivaldo vs zidane - Page 2 Empty Re: rivaldo vs zidane

Post by Doc Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:27 pm

Didn't Del Piero arguably had a better season than Ronaldo in 97 and 98?!

Also, over hyped. The word you are looking for is over hyped Pippo. Saying Zidane was overrated is completely and utterly disrespectful.
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