Do we play better without Jack?

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Artilleristen on Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:11 am

@julias wrote:
@6unner wrote:The bad part of this is Dnmac4 is actually kind of right and it has been something we have been discussing all year. Not because of the over nefarious "Wilshere is a horrible player" that some here IMHO seem to be reading into it. More because when Wilshere is in we have been playing this new 4-1-4-1 formation and it is horrible. We can not score and our defense is suspect. When Wilshere has not been in we move back to something that resembles the 4-2-3-1 that we played last year and we look much better. Not really sure why it is that Wenger has decided that if Wilshere is in we need to change the formation. I also have no idea why Wenger is trying to force Jack in to a 10. We have someone that was recognized as one of the best 10s in the world until he arrived in the new 4-1-4-1 then was moved to the wing. Along with others that have years of being much more consistent in a creative role than Jack.


I agree on the formation switch it is annoying but I get the feeling Wenger does it because he wants to force Wilshere and Ramsey into the same team which I just don't understand.

The ironic thing is I doubt see either Jack or Aaron as no10s which makes it even more irritating that Oezil is shifted outwide.

Imo it should be one of the two fighting for the 2 in a 4231 not shoved together in that strange 4141.

If there was a position battle between them Ramsey's class would wipe the floor with Jack, I wish Arsene would loan him out to a good team so he could grow, he has been stagnant since cesc left.

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by julias on Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:36 am

@Artilleristen wrote:
@julias wrote:
@6unner wrote:The bad part of this is Dnmac4 is actually kind of right and it has been something we have been discussing all year. Not because of the over nefarious "Wilshere is a horrible player" that some here IMHO seem to be reading into it. More because when Wilshere is in we have been playing this new 4-1-4-1 formation and it is horrible. We can not score and our defense is suspect. When Wilshere has not been in we move back to something that resembles the 4-2-3-1 that we played last year and we look much better. Not really sure why it is that Wenger has decided that if Wilshere is in we need to change the formation. I also have no idea why Wenger is trying to force Jack in to a 10. We have someone that was recognized as one of the best 10s in the world until he arrived in the new 4-1-4-1 then was moved to the wing. Along with others that have years of being much more consistent in a creative role than Jack.


I agree on the formation switch it is annoying but I get the feeling Wenger does it because he wants to force Wilshere and Ramsey into the same team which I just don't understand.

The ironic thing is I doubt see either Jack or Aaron as no10s which makes it even more irritating that Oezil is shifted outwide.

Imo it should be one of the two fighting for the 2 in a 4231 not shoved together in that strange 4141.

If there was a position battle between them Ramsey's class would wipe the floor with Jack, I wish Arsene would loan him out to a good team so he could grow, he has been stagnant since cesc left.


Based off Ramsey's quality last season I tend to agree, I would have him ahead of Jack and Jack to come on or for rotation, however I think Wilsh has started the season quite well tbh

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by 6unner on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:06 pm

"quite well"?
Again I understand the formation change has caused issues on both ends of the pitch. I am not trolling here or even pointing at one person or another. Just really curious what it is that people are basing their opinions on. Is "quite well" compared to what a 10 is supposed to bring, or others in the EPL, Just from Arsenal players? To me Alexis has started the season "quite well". Our CB pairings and Schez have started the season well. Not that I dislike any single player completely. I actually think it is really down to the manager and formation. As a 10 for what is supposed to be a top team in the EPL. Jack has been disappointing. Özil as a left wing again disappointing. Artetta or Flamini for holding mid disappointing. Manager, formation and transfer window infuriating complete disappointment. The rest mildly adequate I guess. We seem to be quite well at keeping possession by passing the ball through the midfield. We are poor at creating or taking chances and helping the CBs when the midfield turns the ball over.

Again really just curious what it is that people base their opinions on. Definitely is not creating or taking a winning shot.

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Abramovich on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:17 pm

dnmad coming to troll the Arsenal fans :bow:
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Raptorgunner on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:27 pm

@6unner wrote:"quite well"?
Again I understand the formation change has caused issues on both ends of the pitch. I am not trolling here or even pointing at one person or another. Just really curious what it is that people are basing their opinions on. Is "quite well" compared to what a 10 is supposed to bring, or others in the EPL, Just from Arsenal players?  To me Alexis has started the season "quite well". Our CB pairings and Schez have started the season well. Not that I dislike any single player completely. I actually think it is really down to the manager and formation. As a 10 for what is supposed to be a top team in the EPL. Jack has been disappointing. Özil as a left wing again disappointing. Artetta or Flamini for holding mid disappointing. Manager, formation and transfer window infuriating complete disappointment. The rest mildly adequate I guess. We seem to be quite well at keeping possession by passing the ball through the midfield. We are poor at creating or taking chances and helping the CBs when the midfield turns the ball over.

Again really just curious what it is that people base their opinions on. Definitely is not creating or taking a winning shot.

Well said, completely agree. Sanchez is a winner and you can still see he brought with him his Barcelona mentality.
What I fear now is that Wenger will find a way to change Sanchez like he has done to many other players.

Other than Sanchez, Ozil, koscielny and maybe Theo, which other Arsenal player would start for a top team?

I think our players are good if pushed hard by a right manager with right tactic.

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by 6unner on Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:40 pm

Is that kind of the problem though, "they are good"?

I know that we led the league last year although were there circumstances with the other perennial top 4 that allowed us an early advantage? We look so bad that the ambition to achieve anything this year is pretty much gone. I actually think that this year will be our biggest fight to achieve our 4th place trophy.
So I wonder are the players that we have actually good enough to challenge for the EPL or will it take a Suarez type season from Alexis (next year) to lead us to the promised land before we capitulate in the final days. The way that Arsenal play football is almost dialogically opposed to the way that the English NT plays. I wonder if our English core has possibly peaked under our current style of play irregardless of the formation change. Should we move to a more direct game instead of the pass through the midfield possession game? I am just not convinced that we have the needed quality in our starting X1 now to continue this style of play.

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by urbaNRoots on Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:25 pm

We do play better without Jack or Aaron right now but not because they lack quality. Eventually it comes back to our formation and Wenger's quality or rather lack of as a manager. In a 4-3-3 they play pretty much the same role when one of them should be more conservative and playmake from a deeper position while also keeping an eye from a defensive POV atleast when the other is doing the attacking stuff.

In my opinion, if Wenger insists on playing a 4-3-3, one of them or both should learn to play as a proper CM who knows when to defend or attack or if that is not possible simply partner one of them with a more defensive minded CM on top of a strong DM.

I'm feeling a bit sorry for Jack that HE is getting targeted once again for Wenger's failures when he's been our best midfielder this season.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by SUPERCARTTS on Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:38 pm

Ball retention not very great. Seems to lack pace to shake of his marker. Doesn't score at all. Poor assist record. Not sure what he does for us.

I reccommmend he continues to watch those Mascherano, Xavi and Pirlo compilations in his spare time.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by DuringTheWar on Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:47 pm

Looks like he won't play tomorrow against Burnley. So when we beat burnley, ranked 20th out of 20 teams in the league, you can add that to the list Laughing

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Dnmac4 on Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:38 am

@DuringTheWar wrote:Looks like he won't play tomorrow against Burnley. So when we beat burnley, ranked 20th out of 20 teams in the league, you can add that to the list Laughing


Well you were drawing to 17th ranked Crystal Place for 70 minutes with him in the game until they yanked Jack and Ramsey saved the bacon.

A game BTW where Ramsey salvages a win and all 3 points instead of a draw when a Draw would have you in 10th place right now.

So the caliber of team really doesn't matter as when he's in the game they have played poorly most of the time against all types of teams.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by DuringTheWar on Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:39 am

@Dnmac4 wrote:
@DuringTheWar wrote:Looks like he won't play tomorrow against Burnley. So when we beat burnley, ranked 20th out of 20 teams in the league, you can add that to the list Laughing


Well you were drawing to 17th ranked Crystal Place for 70 minutes with him in the game until they yanked Jack and Ramsey saved the bacon.

A game BTW where Ramsey salvages a win and all 3 points instead of a draw when a Draw would have you in 10th place right now.

So the caliber of team really doesn't matter as when he's in the game they have played poorly most of the time against all types of teams.


We "yanked" Jack and then scored this goal in stoppage time



So a set piece situation with the box packed in stoppage time, we get the ball in there, win a couple of headers that leads to a shot that is rebounded to Ramsey to tap into an empty net. Really great play, I mean once wilshere went off it was like watching a mixture between Peps Barcelona and Sachis Milan.

Oh yeah, we couldn't possibly score a goal like that if wilshere was on the pitch, because he is totally responsible for our ability to cross the ball in the box from set pieces and win headers. Laughing

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Dnmac4 on Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:13 pm

@DuringTheWar wrote:
@Dnmac4 wrote:
@DuringTheWar wrote:Looks like he won't play tomorrow against Burnley. So when we beat burnley, ranked 20th out of 20 teams in the league, you can add that to the list Laughing


Well you were drawing to 17th ranked Crystal Place for 70 minutes with him in the game until they yanked Jack and Ramsey saved the bacon.

A game BTW where Ramsey salvages a win and all 3 points instead of a draw when a Draw would have you in 10th place right now.

So the caliber of team really doesn't matter as when he's in the game they have played poorly most of the time against all types of teams.


We "yanked" Jack and then scored this goal in stoppage time



So a set piece situation with the box packed in stoppage time, we get the ball in there, win a couple of headers that leads to a shot that is rebounded to Ramsey to tap into an empty net. Really great play, I mean once wilshere went off it was like watching a mixture between Peps Barcelona and Sachis Milan.

Oh yeah, we couldn't possibly score a goal like that if wilshere was on the pitch, because he is totally responsible for our ability to cross the ball in the box from set pieces and win headers. Laughing


Again you were even and in a Draw with Palace for 70 minutes and when he left you won in 20 minutes.

The way the goal was scored is not really any kind of issue as you could argue there is no goal ever scored that Arsenal couldn't score with Jack on the pitch.

The issue is again they kept a clean sheet when he left the game and they scored in 20 minutes which is about the pace they score when he doesn't play (every 25 minutes).

This game bears out the statistics better than almost any other game as Arsenal played totally to the numbers once he left.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Dnmac4 on Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:24 pm

Oh and BTW it has been argued on here that the change in formation is the reason Arsenal play better when Jack doesn't play.

I totally agree.

Look at today's game, they had a million chances on goal and could have won 10-0 while never looking close to conceding.  Again no matter the quality of team the big issue is when he is in the game Arsenal seem to let in goals.

BUT, the reason they change formation is that they can't operate in that formation when Jack plays because he has no true position and is all over the place hence leaving gaps for teams to exploit.  Jack has no positional sense and no sense of  being responsible for keeping his teams shape or organizing his team into shape which is a must for CM.  

All in all Arsenal went out and throttled a team they should have, Alexis looks filthy and again they stayed totally true to the numbers scoring every 25 minutes and almost never conceding when Jack doesn't play.

There may be something to all of this after all.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Hapless_Hans on Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:44 pm

Questionable science and obsessive-compulsive hating notwithstanding, the answer I'm afraid seems to be 'yes'.


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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by DuringTheWar on Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:28 pm

Well look at recent games, lost 2-1 while he wasn't on the pitch against Swansea, lost 2-1 against man utd while he wasn't on the pitch, drew 3-3 with anderlecht without him, won 2-0 against Dortmund without him (Dortmund already qualified though), won 1-0 against Southampton (in the 89 minute AFTER they played with 10 men), then lost 2-3 to stoke.

I don't think this is evidence that we do great without him

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by urbaNRoots on Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:38 pm

It was a stupid theory anyway, Wilshere has been our best midfielder this season so he couldn't have been the reason we weren't winning games.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by RealGunner on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:58 pm

Wilshere out for potentially 5 months according to Sun

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by El Gunner on Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:54 am

Lad doesn't get a break it's just ridiculous.
Time to splash the cash on Pogba I think.

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by RealGunner on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:11 am

apparently that's false and its 3 months as expected
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Dnmac4 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:34 pm

@urbaNRoots wrote:It was a stupid theory anyway, Wilshere has been our best midfielder this season so he couldn't have been the reason we weren't winning games.


OK so for a combination of factors, the first one is me being suspended from the board for arguing with a communist about the insanity of the European qualification process and how it hurts club teams now that the tournament has 24 teams 8 less than the World Cup for freaking sakes.

And the other being I wanted to let some time pass to get some good stats / information.

As anyone can see the poster I quoted who is not the only one who shares his opinion that my assertion that Arsenal play better without Jack Wilshere is in his words a "Stupid Theory" and Wilshere has been Arsenals best Midfielder.

Well here is the information and as predicted it pretty much proves out my theory and also I want to add that I believe it also proves out what others have said that Arsenal become more flexible tactically when there not forced to shove Wilshere in the lineup and move BETTER PLAYERS out wide because Jack doesn't have a position.

They have played 9 games since he went out against United and there record is 7 wins 1 draw and 1 loss.  I will add there schedule has not been easy by any means over these last 9 games playing Dortmond, West Brom, Southampton, Stoke, Gala, Newcastle, Liverpool, QPR and West Ham.

Here are some facts to take from these 9 games.

1) Arsenal have achieved 22/27 points
2) Arsenal have scored 20 goals
3) Arsenal have let in 9 goals
4) Arsenal score a goal every 40 minutes
5) Arsenal concede a goal every 90 minutes
6)Arsenal have limited there opponents to 1 or 0 goals in 7 of these 9 games.

I did say in my previous posts that the numbers were so far out of whack there was no way they could keep going in the same direction and would somewhat even out which they have.  But what is great is that the numbers don't reflect chopping up games anymore with him being subbed in and out etc.  

Below were the numbers previously in this thread.

Arsenal have scored 23 goals this year and they have let in 15 goals.

17 of there goals have come when Jack doesn't play.  For people who are bad at math 74% of Arsenal's goals this year have come with Jack on the bench.

When Jack is on the bench Arsenal scores every 25 minutes.
When Jack plays Arsenal score every 152 minutes

Now for the Defensive Statistics- 15 goals against.

13 with Jack in the game
2 with Jack out of the game

With Jack in the game Arsenal let up a goal every 70 minutes
With Jack on the bench Arsenal let up a goal every 219 minutes

As I have been saying since you guys bought Cazorla if he was played in his proper position he would go right back to being the great player he is and my whole assertion over this whole Jack Wilshere saga has been it's pure insanity to move Cazorla and Ozil out wide to shoehorn a player who is just not nearly as good as either player, hence Cazorla's best year for Arsenal when he scored 12 goals and had 11 assists in the EPL alone was largely when Wilshere was hurt and we all know how bad Wilshere's goal and assist numbers are.

Since Wilshere has been out of the lineup and hence letting Santi get a run of games in his preferred position without being a substitute or in one game out the next he has been a totally different player and I think that's pretty obvious.  He's played in 8 of the 9 games and had 4 goals and 4 assists.  

BTW, that's basically an entire season for Wilshere as his best season is either 4 goals and 5 assists in all competitions or 2 goals and 9 assists in all competitions.

I will be interested to see how the rest of the season plays out as Arsenal are finally looking like the team they should be with there talent especially in the watered down EPL and when JAck comes back we will see what the numbers really were for the season although going forward Arsenal are going to get a lot of very influential players back which Jack didn't get to play with this year so it may be somewhat unfair to him.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by urbaNRoots on Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:50 pm

Dnmac I agree with your main point. The likes of Cazorla and Özil shouldn't be played out of position so we can accomodate one said player and that includes Wilshere, especially if it is not working results wise.I have basically the same opinion about Welbeck/Giroud. Welbeck is put out of position just because he's versatile and to accomodate Giroud despite that we play better with Welbeck playing centrally. So I totally agree with you on that.

BUT that is not Wilshere's fault. His performances have been very good individually and I find it very harsh to blame HIM even if he's personally performing well. It's Wenger who doesn't know how to accomodate these players and constantly plays them out of position.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Dnmac4 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:58 pm

Were basically on the same page we just disagree about a few certain issues.  

1) You're 100% right, Wenger should have the sense to play the correct players in the correct positions.  Like I said previously when they got Steamrolled by Dortmond there is no reason on earth Dortmond should beat Arsenal as bad as they did (the score was 2-0 but it could have been 10-0) as Arsenal have better players when they are deployed in the correct positions and that game was basically a microcosm of Arsenal's struggles in the beginning of the season, dropping points to teams they shouldn't.  Since Jack's been out they really don't anymore except the one off game they lost 3-2.  

2)This is the big issue I have with Arsenal fans and where I think we fundamentally disagree a little.  I will look at preview threads before games and about 80-90% of Arsenal fans when Wilshere is healthy ALWAYS say put Jack in the middle and ship Cazorla or Ozil out wide.

This is a big issue because it destroys Cazorla's game and Ozil is more effective in the middle and IMO (I know we don't share this opinion) Jack is not all that effective in the middle of the field as he can't finish or assist and he's not a DM, in fact he's out of position all the time plus both Cazorla and Ozil are better passers.

Jack can't play out wide so IMO Arsenal weakens there whole team to force him in the lineup and I have never seen another fan base be blind to that fact or basically not care just as long as Wilshere is in the lineup.  I mean I think Cazorla vs Wilshere isn't even close in terms of quality so I'll compare it to Barca as I'm a Barca fan.  I can't imagine putting Neymar on the bench to play homegrown Pedro in front of him and have everyone be cool with that and then fight tooth and nail and say Pedro is our best attacker.

I mean there has to come a point where Jack beats out players on merit.  If he can't play wide and you have 3 central players in Ozil, Cazorla and Ramsey that are better than him then he shouldn't start.  Bottom line.  But again I always see Arsenal fans wanting him in the lineup and I just don't understand it.  

A lot of Arsenal fans have come half way to the realization that you have to play a formation that basically isn't suited to your team to play him I just don't know why they can't get all the way to the realization he's not good enough to start when your central players are healthy.  Arsenal have awesome Central Midfield players and if you're non-biased it's like really obvious he is the odd man out.  It's not a personal attack on the guy, he just isn't good enough and at this level that should mean something.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Peccadillo on Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:29 pm

when will this tirade end...

dnmac you have certainly developed your argument over the past 4 months into something which closely resembles a valid point.

I just find it hard to believe your research has been objective in any way. I certainly don't have the time to analyse your statistics.

Recent form doesn't prove that "Arsenal play better without Jack".. It shows that Arsenal play better with Santi (or Ozil) playing centrally. Its important you understand this distinction.

We are all well aware that we have too many central players. Whilst I do agree that sticking Cazorla or Ozil out wide to accommodate Jack in the middle doesn't make sense.. I think Wenger is entitled to play around with his squad with some degree of impunity.

If you remember, Jack also got shuffled out wide too for many of those games you're referring to where we had a bad record. Although I accept that he played central more often than not and it was at the expense of Ozil and Santi.

Our recent form in no way proves your theory. Form comes and goes and its quite a stretch to attribute form of an entire team down to one player.

As for why he gets a "free pass", gooners want to see him develop into a key player. His development has been severely affected by injury - he has missed 120 weeks through injury in the past 5 years. You only need to look at Ramsey and what happened last season to know what injury can do to players of that age, and how quickly their form can change.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Dnmac4 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:27 am

I mean you don't really have to analyze or put much thought into if my numbers are biased or not as they are very simple stats.

They are basically points won, goals for, goals against, goal differential, minutes per goal and minutes per goals conceded.

I'm not sure how that's biased.  In fact, I didn't even make the thread.

I even made a point to to say Arsenal have a really good squad when played properly and should be one of the best teams in the EPL.  I don't think that's biased.

To comment on a couple of your points.  It's not just your recent form that proves my point, your form when Wilshere was playing earlier this season was much more of an indictment of how much better they are when he's not playing.  

In fact huge threads were started not by me about Ozil not playing centrally because of Wilshere and how it contributed to Arsenal's and Ozil's form.

As for judging an entire team down to one player.  It really kind of is that simple and a lot of Arsenal fans had no issues what so ever doing it to Ozil.  Jack forces Arsenal to play in a formation that is not suited to there best attributes.  There midfield which is the strongest part of there team bar DM turns into one of there worst units and puts massive pressure on there defense, his link up play from front to back is sub par compared to Santi or Ozil and he is out of position constantly forcing others to cover for him.  

In short Arsenal score a lot more goals when he doesn't play and concede a lot less. A whole lot less not to mention they gain a lot more points and generally there best 2 players get to play in there proper positions.  Call me crazy if you want but I don't think you could say that about anyone else on the team.

Now if I just used games later in the season when Arsenal got all there players back healthy that would be biased, but that's not the case.

Your last point which is the most important / baffling to me that Jack gets a free pass because Gooners want to see him develop into a key player.  

That's great, I would hope you want to see everyone develop into key players.  Why he would be singled out is IMO weird.  You guys didn't have patience with Vela, half your fan base were slamming Ozil this year and both are much better players than Jack. In fact Ozil has played better then Jack ever has in an Arsenal shirt and you don't see threads anywhere bashing him or calling for him to be benched etc.

Developing players is what the pre-season, Carling Cup, FA Cup is for.  Not the meat of your schedule and not at the expense of better players and again it's what baffles me is that Arsenal fans really would rather experiment with Wilshere in the lineup than go with what works, it's sick and kind of twisted and frankly unfair to a guy like Cazorla.

The fact that Jack is massively injury prone is even stranger that Arsenal fans would be open to this.  I mean you basically know he's going to miss massive parts of each season yet when he gets back to 80-90% healthy a large majority wants him right back in the lineup at the expense of other better, healthier players.  I honestly have never seen this dynamic with any other fan base.

Last point, don't compare Wilshere to Ramsey.  They are very different players  Ramsey has a nose for goal and a penchant for the dramatic late game heroics.  Jack has none of that.  Ramsey can play bad all game and come up aces and save 3 points, that is not at all Jack's game.  I mean we are talking about a guy who is a terrible finisher and rarely if ever gets on the sheet for goals or assists.
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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by DuringTheWar on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:31 pm

Oh dear Lord..

Dnmac Can we please make a deal, you don't bump this thread whenever we win some games, and I (or anyone else) won't bump it when we've had one of the shit meltdowns we regularly have. Yeah?

One bit of analysis to leave with, Dortmund had already qualified when we played them, we beat Southampton in the last minute when they were down to 10 men, we were humiliated by stoke, galatasaray was a dead rubber that we played our friggin C team in, lucky to get a point at anfield, and yeah sure we beat west ham Newcastle and queens park rangers.

If you look at the comments during this time in this forum, or the arsenal fan tv videos on YouTube you will see what a load of shit we've been in, with a few rays of light here and there that the most deluded among us take exaggerated meaning from.




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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

Post by Eman on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:51 pm

We play worse with him in the team than we would with our starting trio of Ozil, Ramsey and Arteta, but Jack is still better than the likes of Flamini and Coquelin. He's not a starter but he has been improving nonetheless and is an important player for us.

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Re: Do we play better without Jack?

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