Real Madrid CF 3 - FC Mehcelona 1

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Who will win El Clasico?

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Post by izzy Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:32 am

windkick wrote:Point proven

*Reads post*

*Reads thread title*

*Reads OP*

*Reads 1st page of thread*

*Reads this line*
windkick wrote:Mean while those Real Madrid fans are acting like they just won the world cup, lol. They always stay classy both in defeat and victory lol


*Reads these line again*
windkick wrote:Point proven
windick wrote:They always stay classy both in defeat and victory lol

*Smiles*

*Logs Off*

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Post by chad4401 Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:01 am

im not even bashing your team calma Laughing, im just waiting for those two, to tell me a interesting story before putting these debates to rest Smile


Last edited by chad4401 on Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Winter is Coming Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:39 am

We also need to stop always making Messi/Alves as our scapegoats. They both played poorly we know that and have been on a decline, but this whole team has been awful. There probably isn't even one player out their today who deserve to have the shirt on today other then perhaps Masche/Mathieu as I didn't see them making too much mistakes and all of Madrid goals and good chances came from the right side of our half.

Our midfield barely provide much service upfront making Nerman/Messi/Suarez coming to middle to retrieve the ball and by the time Madrid already were defensively set up, thats how its been for awhile for us. No one seems to care and they gave up too easily. No leader, no passion, desire or heart in this team. We should've been in reconstruction for a new team with Pep or when he left then rather then sticking to the same guys because one dates Shakira and the others come from La Masia. Pedro when he came on it was worse, he screwed up almost every single attack that was going through him or coming to him how he's still with us is beyond me.

Nothing against Ronaldo (I hope his fans don't attack me for this), but at least Madrid get new and fresh players to compliment him and players who want to win and create a legacy at their club, while Messi has to be around players who are quite clearly not hungry enough and past it, Neymar/Suarez are great for him but midfield theres hardly service nowadays.
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Post by futbol Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:54 am

Calma. Vermaelen will be back soon.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:01 am

I refuse to blame the players much when this loss is clearly our managers fault.

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Post by futbol Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:13 am

alexjanosik wrote:I refuse to blame the players much when this loss is clearly our managers fault.


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL

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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:14 am

Winter is Coming wrote:but midfield theres hardly service nowadays.


You dominated the ball and got your attacking players into a lot of good positions. From an attacking perspective what more do you want from your midfielders than that?
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:33 am

Fußball wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I refuse to blame the players much when this loss is clearly our managers fault.


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL


But wasnt Enrique supposed to be different?The drill sergeant who was going to fix our positioning and pressing.What happened there?
The games you mentioned were different and none of them were this embarrassing.Tata had his faults but he never got schooled like this.
Enrique got the players in he wanted over the summer.If he cant get the result then and puts on a shocker,then yes the blame is entirely on him.

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Post by Winter is Coming Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:45 am

DuringTheWar wrote:
Winter is Coming wrote:but midfield theres hardly service nowadays.


You dominated the ball and got your attacking players into a lot of good positions. From an attacking perspective what more do you want from your midfielders than that?

We had a good control and chances for the first 20-30 mins at most that was about it after that we looked like Getafe.
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:54 am

futbol
I would love to hear your spin on this.Kindly elaborate how this wasnt Enrique's fault.

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Post by CBarca Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:56 am

alexjanosik wrote:
Fußball wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I refuse to blame the players much when this loss is clearly our managers fault.


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL


But wasnt Enrique supposed to be different?The drill sergeant who was going to fix our positioning and pressing.What happened there?
The games you mentioned were different and none of them were this embarrassing.Tata had his faults but he never got schooled like this.
Enrique got the players in he wanted over the summer.If he cant get the result then and puts on a shocker,then yes the blame is entirely on him.


The pressing was absolutely abysmal...
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Post by Winter is Coming Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:58 am

alexjanosik wrote:futbol
I would love to hear your spin on this.Kindly elaborate how this wasnt Enrique's fault.


All tho I agree Enrique deserve blame as you can see in my response, but lets not make it seem like the players don't deserve the blame. I highly doubt Enrique told Pique to slide and give away a stupid PK and I highly doubt he told them not to defend Pepe in the set piece goal.
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Post by futbol Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:00 am

alexjanosik wrote:
Fußball wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I refuse to blame the players much when this loss is clearly our managers fault.


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL


But wasnt Enrique supposed to be different?The drill sergeant who was going to fix our positioning and pressing.What happened there?
The games you mentioned were different and none of them were this embarrassing.Tata had his faults but he never got schooled like this.
Enrique got the players in he wanted over the summer.If he cant get the result then and puts on a shocker,then yes the blame is entirely on him.


What are you talking about? This game was a carbon copy of last season's Bernabeu Clasico. Barca took the lead, Benzema should have scored 3 or more goals but because he's worse than Higuain/Falcao he only scored 1, Ronaldo scored a penalty, Barca's right side with Alves got raped by Di Maria/Marcelo, Madrid scored 3 goals. It was the same game except Barca didn't get 2 penalties and Messi missed from 5 yards.

Problem is the same as ever. Pique isn't Barca level, Alves gets beaten one on one 9 out of 10 times, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta are too slow and unphysical if they can't dominate games (which they can't do anymore), collective pressing non-existent.

I'd put blame on Lucho for the lack of collective workrate but he clearly, CLEARLY wants his team to do just that, he's talking about nothing else but the players aren't doing it anymore. Haven't done it under Tata, Tito or del Bosque either. Why would they? Pep was just the first one who saw it early, see his autobiagraphy. Iniesta has won 5 European Cups and a World Cup alongside half a dozen league titles and shared the top 3 Ballon d'Or podium for consecutive seasons. Isco is a youth player who wants to earn a starting spot at Madrid and Spain, he has no guaranteed place. That's why he puts in 7 tackles against Liverpool. Who does that at Barca? Mascherano and who else? Neymar already pulling rainbow flicks after 15 minutes of football. Summing up the attitude of the team. And no, it's not just Messi, even though he's the easiest target.


ter Stegen
Montoya Bartra Mathieu Alba
Mascherano
Rakitic Rafinha
Suarez Messi Neymar

The rest doesn't deserve to get on the field unless they die on the pitch and can't breath properly after 60 minutes. It's far from a world class team, it might win f all, but they won't annoy me as much as seeing Alves' and Pique's faces week in week out, Iniesta doing endless pirouettes with 0 end product, Busquets trying to shield the ball and draw a foul and getting his pocket picked and all the other things which I've seen a thousand times in the past 2 years. Bartra, Rakitic, Mascherano, Rafinha. They will all fight. If they don't we can start blaming Enrique.

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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:46 am

Winter is Coming wrote:
DuringTheWar wrote:
Winter is Coming wrote:but midfield theres hardly service nowadays.


You dominated the ball and got your attacking players into a lot of good positions. From an attacking perspective what more do you want from your midfielders than that?

We had a good control and chances for the first 20-30 mins at most that was about it after that we looked like Getafe.


No you didn't. You quite regularly got your attacking players in good positions and I'm surprised you didn't score more than one. I imagine you would have scored a few if your front three had all been on form.
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Post by Winter is Coming Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:57 am

DuringTheWar wrote:
Winter is Coming wrote:
DuringTheWar wrote:
You dominated the ball and got your attacking players into a lot of good positions. From an attacking perspective what more do you want from your midfielders than that?

We had a good control and chances for the first 20-30 mins at most that was about it after that we looked like Getafe.


No you didn't. You quite regularly got your attacking players in good positions and I'm surprised you didn't score more than one. I imagine you would have scored a few if your front three had all been on form.

I'll have to go see some highlights in bit. I don't recall really seeing this, especially in the second half.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:17 am

My two cents...  your managers don't adjust to game conditions ever.  If you have control, no problem.  But when you don't, you'd want a manager to adjust a few things.  For example, how in the world do you think defending with 7 (or 6 if you rightly say that Xavi can't defend) against a team like Madrid would work?  We scored 3 and it should have been 5 or 6.

I now realize the impact of an in-from Xavi.  Both NT and club have gone down the toilet since his level has dropped.

The Barca managers need to manage and stop arrogantly thinking that it's one way or the highway.  You can adjust within a possession-style system.
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Post by futbol Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:31 am

sportsczy wrote:I now realize the impact of an in-from Xavi.  Both NT and club have gone down the toilet since his level has dropped.

The Barca managers need to manage and stop arrogantly thinking that it's one way or the highway.  You can adjust within a possession-style system.


The Barca directors would have allowed Xavi to leave if he wanted to, they left it to him to decide (I think only reason he stayed is because he's going to end up at NYC FC but they start the season next year). 2 months later he's starting a Clasico in the Bernabeu. So what is he? Surplus or ready to start the biggest fixture of the year? Inconsequential management.

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Post by sportsczy Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:42 am

I'm not criticizing Xavi. I'm praising him. Every player gets old and drops form... i'm just pointing out that he was the most important player for both NT and club. Both systems have fallen apart since his level has dropped. It can't be a coincidence.
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Post by futbol Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:01 am

sportsczy wrote:I'm not criticizing Xavi.  I'm praising him.  Every player gets old and drops form... i'm just pointing out that he was the most important player for both NT and club.  Both systems have fallen apart since his level has dropped.  It can't be a coincidence.


No, I understood your post and I agree. I just went off on a tangent a bit to highlight the real problem - the upper management of the club. No one has a clear sporting vision. They went from "Xavi can leave if he wishes" to Xavi starting in the Bernabeu within 2 months because he's apparently still the best we've got (or the coach is stupid which too would be on the management, they appointed him).

I have sympathy for Tata now more than ever. The management threw him under the bus and the man didn't want to take it and left. Hope people like free_cat enjoy it, we haven't had less than 50 % possession yet, all is well.

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Post by eelir Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:22 am

There is a lot to be blamed here.

Upper management? Perhaps.

Enrique? Yes!

Most of the players? Definitely!

Enrique has proved he cant adjust the game when thing go south two times we faced a real opponent.

Most of our "star" players seam to have lost the ability to press completely. I can say this is Enriques fault, but Pep's biography and Enriques comments make me think we should go with fußbal's line up (couple of posts up) for at least next 3-4 games, and start including our "stars" again based on the merit they show on the training ground.
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:42 am

Fußball wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
Fußball wrote:


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL


But wasnt Enrique supposed to be different?The drill sergeant who was going to fix our positioning and pressing.What happened there?
The games you mentioned were different and none of them were this embarrassing.Tata had his faults but he never got schooled like this.
Enrique got the players in he wanted over the summer.If he cant get the result then and puts on a shocker,then yes the blame is entirely on him.


What are you talking about? This game was a carbon copy of last season's Bernabeu Clasico. Barca took the lead, Benzema should have scored 3 or more goals but because he's worse than Higuain/Falcao he only scored 1, Ronaldo scored a penalty, Barca's right side with Alves got raped by Di Maria/Marcelo, Madrid scored 3 goals. It was the same game except Barca didn't get 2 penalties and Messi missed from 5 yards.

Problem is the same as ever. Pique isn't Barca level, Alves gets beaten one on one 9 out of 10 times, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta are too slow and unphysical if they can't dominate games (which they can't do anymore), collective pressing non-existent.

I'd put blame on Lucho for the lack of collective workrate but he clearly, CLEARLY wants his team to do just that, he's talking about nothing else but the players aren't doing it anymore. Haven't done it under Tata, Tito or del Bosque either. Why would they? Pep was just the first one who saw it early, see his autobiagraphy. Iniesta has won 5 European Cups and a World Cup alongside half a dozen league titles and shared the top 3 Ballon d'Or podium for consecutive seasons. Isco is a youth player who wants to earn a starting spot at Madrid and Spain, he has no guaranteed place. That's why he puts in 7 tackles against Liverpool. Who does that at Barca? Mascherano and who else? Neymar already pulling rainbow flicks after 15 minutes of football. Summing up the attitude of the team. And no, it's not just Messi, even though he's the easiest target.


ter Stegen
Montoya Bartra Mathieu Alba
Mascherano
Rakitic Rafinha
Suarez Messi Neymar

The rest doesn't deserve to get on the field unless they die on the pitch and can't breath properly after 60 minutes. It's far from a world class team, it might win f all, but they won't annoy me as much as seeing Alves' and Pique's faces week in week out, Iniesta doing endless pirouettes with 0 end product, Busquets trying to shield the ball and draw a foul and getting his pocket picked and all the other things which I've seen a thousand times in the past 2 years. Bartra, Rakitic, Mascherano, Rafinha. They will all fight. If they don't we can start blaming Enrique.


Fußball wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
Fußball wrote:


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL


But wasnt Enrique supposed to be different?The drill sergeant who was going to fix our positioning and pressing.What happened there?
The games you mentioned were different and none of them were this embarrassing.Tata had his faults but he never got schooled like this.
Enrique got the players in he wanted over the summer.If he cant get the result then and puts on a shocker,then yes the blame is entirely on him.


What are you talking about? This game was a carbon copy of last season's Bernabeu Clasico. Barca took the lead, Benzema should have scored 3 or more goals but because he's worse than Higuain/Falcao he only scored 1, Ronaldo scored a penalty, Barca's right side with Alves got raped by Di Maria/Marcelo, Madrid scored 3 goals. It was the same game except Barca didn't get 2 penalties and Messi missed from 5 yards.

Problem is the same as ever. Pique isn't Barca level, Alves gets beaten one on one 9 out of 10 times, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta are too slow and unphysical if they can't dominate games (which they can't do anymore), collective pressing non-existent.

I'd put blame on Lucho for the lack of collective workrate but he clearly, CLEARLY wants his team to do just that, he's talking about nothing else but the players aren't doing it anymore. Haven't done it under Tata, Tito or del Bosque either. Why would they? Pep was just the first one who saw it early, see his autobiagraphy. Iniesta has won 5 European Cups and a World Cup alongside half a dozen league titles and shared the top 3 Ballon d'Or podium for consecutive seasons. Isco is a youth player who wants to earn a starting spot at Madrid and Spain, he has no guaranteed place. That's why he puts in 7 tackles against Liverpool. Who does that at Barca? Mascherano and who else? Neymar already pulling rainbow flicks after 15 minutes of football. Summing up the attitude of the team. And no, it's not just Messi, even though he's the easiest target.


ter Stegen
Montoya Bartra Mathieu Alba
Mascherano
Rakitic Rafinha
Suarez Messi Neymar

The rest doesn't deserve to get on the field unless they die on the pitch and can't breath properly after 60 minutes. It's far from a world class team, it might win f all, but they won't annoy me as much as seeing Alves' and Pique's faces week in week out, Iniesta doing endless pirouettes with 0 end product, Busquets trying to shield the ball and draw a foul and getting his pocket picked and all the other things which I've seen a thousand times in the past 2 years. Bartra, Rakitic, Mascherano, Rafinha. They will all fight. If they don't we can start blaming Enrique.


Once more you keep brushing over his pathetic tactics in this game.
Madrid have one of the most devastating wings in the world.
And yet he lets our fullbacks to the wolves leaving them completely unexposed.
I assume he must have thought something something along the lines of.
"Hmm,So I have got Neymar,Suarez and Messi upfront.What else do i need.I will just ask them to stay upfront and they will do their thing and win."
Why did he decide to leave all 3 players up top with no workrate?If they dont press then atleast ask the wide players to track back and cover the fullback.You cant get away with doing neither.
This isnt 1970.You cant get away with defending with 7 players( 6 and a half as Xavi is not very good) against a team like Madrid.The wings will inevitably get exposed and thats exactly what happened.Our fullbacks got double teamed all night long and they destroyed us down the wings.And yet Fraudrique does nothing.The solution was simple enough.
Answer me why Fraudrique did nothing and please dont go off on tangents again.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:45 am

sportsczy wrote:My two cents...  your managers don't adjust to game conditions ever.  If you have control, no problem.  But when you don't, you'd want a manager to adjust a few things.  For example, how in the world do you think defending with 7 (or 6 if you rightly say that Xavi can't defend) against a team like Madrid would work?  We scored 3 and it should have been 5 or 6.

I now realize the impact of an in-from Xavi.  Both NT and club have gone down the toilet since his level has dropped.

The Barca managers need to manage and stop arrogantly thinking that it's one way or the highway.  You can adjust within a possession-style system.


Precisely.He did nothing all game to change it.All he had to do was ask the wide forwards to track their fullbacks and not allow our fullbacks to be double teamed.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:47 am

And your team is hilarious.You talk about effort and commitment and dying and then you include Fraudessi in the lineup and exclude Alves.The irony.
Watch the last 30 min of the match when we were down.There was only player from our side who was trying and that was Alves.
While your precious Fraudessi went into hiding.

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Post by sportsczy Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:44 am

Fußball wrote:
sportsczy wrote:I'm not criticizing Xavi.  I'm praising him.  Every player gets old and drops form... i'm just pointing out that he was the most important player for both NT and club.  Both systems have fallen apart since his level has dropped.  It can't be a coincidence.
No, I understood your post and I agree. I just went off on a tangent a bit to highlight the real problem - the upper management of the club. No one has a clear sporting vision. They went from "Xavi can leave if he wishes" to Xavi starting in the Bernabeu within 2 months because he's apparently still the best we've got (or the coach is stupid which too would be on the management, they appointed him).

I have sympathy for Tata now more than ever. The management threw him under the bus and the man didn't want to take it and left. Hope people like free_cat enjoy it, we haven't had less than 50 % possession yet, all is well.
Yeah... but it would be foolish to try and replace Xavi with one player.  All time great players are irreplaceable.  Barca (and Spain) need to adjust their system (not change, adjust) to accentuate the strengths of the team without Xavi.  Barca's midfield is no longer dominant.  So what does the club need to do?  Upgrade the defense since the midfield can't protect it as well.  Also, focus on getting the ball to the forwards and allowing them to attack.  Neymar, Messi and Suarez are at their best when they are attacking the opponent... let them take players on.  Passing it around until there's the perfect opportunity no longer fits this team.  There's ways to play possession football with a measure of directness in the end.

None of this happens easily or immediately btw.  It took Madrid 7 years to fix its midfield after Zidane left.  We fixed our defense which allowed us to win along the way... also had great invidual talent.  But until this past year, our midfield was always weak.  Took 8 years for France NT to adjust too.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:33 pm

alex is right on the money with the wing situation. Fußbal i recall arguing with you about how that whole tactic would work when suarez, neymar and messi all starts.

yesterday was a clean demonstration of that, they don't work like wingers, and leave your fullback exposed to counters. Marcelo going forward had a field day running down that side.

It's funny because few years ago, we had CR wide and Alves was pummelling that side... tactically whatever LE cooked failed miserably. I don't think there was ever a point in the game you were able to stop us. Right after you scored you were already under assault from both wings because mathieu and alves had no support, and we took advantage of the mismatch all game long, with no adjustment from your side.

All and all, pathetic coaching from your side imo, the way LE apologized after the game suggests to me that he knew that situation could occur, but just did a lot of wishful thinking with no adjustment.
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Post by Collblanc Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:16 pm

Matthieu got the ball 10 times to the front, lost it 9 times. Beast. :bow:
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