APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by The Franchise on Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:37 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:I think it was your best game of the season tbh. Your shape reminded me a bit of the shape you guys had when you beat us 4-0. Suarez as a blocker with Messi behind him.


Surely that shape is absolutely impossible with Neymar, Messi and Suarez though?


We are talking this shape right?


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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by windkick on Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:00 pm

Yup, thats what was used during the match. Messi and Villa swapped roles that match, from right/forward/center forward and it completely helped break down the opponents defense. Enrique hinted after the game that this will become the regular with Suarez and Messi. The same roles were used the last 2 games and Messi had a hat trick in each match and Suarez had a goal and an assist. Neymar can play on the left like Pedro, and most importantly Pedro can now be useful in this set up. Which makes us stronger.

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by The Franchise on Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:30 pm

Problem I have with this formation is, it nearly always leads to Dani Alves isolation in both defence and attack.

In attack, unless Xavi plays, the ball will get played to Alves and nobody will come close to him to recieve it. Which increases Alves average pass distance at least 8-10m, and in turn probably doubles the amount of times he crosses the ball.

But thats still manageable because if Xavi plays he will always come close to him, and Suarez could provide the kind of movement needed to shorten the passing distance...plus is Messi decides he wants to be active that day he will link up with Alves.

But in defence, against the best teams...its the same problem as against PSG and Madrid. Unclear pressing shape and a broken team of 3 forwards and 7 defenders.
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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by futbol on Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:37 pm

It wasn't quite the same. Messi was playing on the wing in a free role coming inside a lot and interchanging positions. But mostly he was on the wing unlike against Milan where Alves was all alone on the right. Heatmap:



I like it a lot. As I said in a previous game - when he played wide we looked best and this confirms it again. A real #9 just gives a different dimension to the team. Occupying centerbacks and moving them around, opening up the pitch, hold-up play etc. With Messi in the middle he just drops deep and gets on the ball and there is a hole upfront.

Did Lucho really hint that this is how we're going to play? If so I like it a lot, reminiscent of 08/09 Barca. Just remains to be seen if Messi will be happy.

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by The Franchise on Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:42 pm

I missed this game just so its clear, will watch later on.
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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by futbol on Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:44 pm

@The Franchise wrote:I missed this game just so its clear, will watch later on.


You missed a lot of fun. Very Happy

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by Casciavit on Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:34 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:I think it was your best game of the season tbh. Your shape reminded me a bit of the shape you guys had when you beat us 4-0. Suarez as a blocker with Messi behind him.


Surely that shape is absolutely impossible with Neymar, Messi and Suarez though?


Well Pedro played last night, so it worked.

Is it impossible with Neymar? Maybe. You generally want a player who just stays near the touchline to provide width. The farther away Nerman is from the penalty area, the worse.

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by Casciavit on Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:46 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:I think it was your best game of the season tbh. Your shape reminded me a bit of the shape you guys had when you beat us 4-0. Suarez as a blocker with Messi behind him.


Surely that shape is absolutely impossible with Neymar, Messi and Suarez though?


We are talking this shape right?



Well I was switching between the City-Bayern match and this match, but I think it was enough to know the general shape.

Off the ball you guys defended with a 4-5-1, with Messi on the RW. And while transitioning to attack, Messi stayed RW. It was only until you guys had the ball firmly in Apoel's half did he move centrally and try to work out combinations with Suarez.

When he moved centrally, Rakitic moved wider to help cover Alves's flank.

It was really effective too, in the first 10 minutes there was a pretty good example on how it was working. Messi had the ball and in front of him were the Apoel CB's. They couldn't advance forward since chances were he was going to slot in  a pass that left Suarez 1 on 1.

Those extra seconds gave him a clear shot on goal in which he should have scored, but shot it at the GK instead.

Anyways it was comfortably your best game of the season. Quick short passing, triangles, pressing. Your CM's weren't playing as wingers Laughing


Last edited by Casciavit on Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by neuro11 on Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:53 pm

What dani pointed, already happened couple of times in this game. I mean when Messi moved centre Alves got isolated and then circled by atleast three players blocking him from passing to Messi (closest) , also his way to move forward that ended up loosing the ball. now its Apoel who could not take advantage but PSG certainly would. And if i am not wrong he did an unnecessary cross in one occassion when nearest player was too far. But Messi in this game moved far more than his recent usual so alves did not have to cross so many.
And i doubt Neymar simply replacing Pedro would work. pedro almost always remained where he was but with Neymar we can expect him cut inside, more towards centre quite often.

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by Bankz on Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:12 pm

Well, i guess all this will be to messi's favour and suarez also. As for nerman, well, gotta feel sorry for him at this point. After all the effort he's put in this season, even after the horrific wc injury.. Suddenly the game is being tweaked to favour el vampito and mehssi. This is after being benched for no reason, worse still, after scoring a goal and giving 2 assists in his last game against sevilla and scoring in 8 out of the last 9 league games.. "Y u go the wrong club nerman?"
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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by windkick on Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:18 pm

Well I got a feeling Nerman would of likely featured had Rafinha not got the red. Also to Lucho's defense, he probably wanted to rest one of the three starters for Valencia's game, given that we were playing against an easier opponent mid week in Apoel; so no point in fatiguing all 3. Messi was after the record, Suarez is needed to get used to the team, so the obvious choice was to not start Nerman. Plus Pedro needs to get in rhythm as well.

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:19 pm

Fußball wrote:It wasn't quite the same. Messi was playing on the wing in a free role coming inside a lot and interchanging positions. But mostly he was on the wing unlike against Milan where Alves was all alone on the right. Heatmap:



I like it a lot. As I said in a previous game - when he played wide we looked best and this confirms it again. A real #9 just gives a different dimension to the team. Occupying centerbacks and moving them around, opening up the pitch, hold-up play etc. With Messi in the middle he just drops deep and gets on the ball and there is a hole upfront.

Did Lucho really hint that this is how we're going to play? If so I like it a lot, reminiscent of 08/09 Barca. Just remains to be seen if Messi will be happy.


That's all fine and dandy but it's just not realistic with Neymar IMO.


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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by windkick on Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:57 pm

Right, but it does mean we have a solid plan B now that we can initiate at any time by simply replacing Pedro/Neymar (depending who starts) for the final 20 mins or so.

Start Pedro, we can play like we did against Apoel. Start Nerman, and we play with the 4-3-3 we usually use. If we NEED a goal and a bus is parked, we can sub Nerman for Pedro and switch to the formation we had vs Apoel. Gives us options, that said not sure if the team or more so Lucho can get all of this to work week in and week out lol

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by neuro11 on Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:03 am

I doubt it can be considered a solid plan B. first of all, you cant think of benching Neymar just to trigger this vs a PTB team. our PTB wishlist is long and contains many good teams as well who are perfectionist in it. and you cant expect to start Pedro over Neymar every now and then. And then there is issue with Pedro who yesterday was just average. with his form you can not expect him to execute plan B week in week out. I mean the guy posses little to no threat to most of the opponents. yesterday, more than the plan i believe it was a rotation where he would certainly come if not Rafinha got booked.

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by futbol on Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:26 am

I don't see the issue with Nerman. At the end of the day he is a winger, not a CF who naturally has to cut inside all the time. Only reason he does it this season is because Lucho so far instructed the forwards to play closer to the box (not only observable but confirmed by Pedro). All a matter of tactical instructions. If he's told to perform a certain role he will do it. Coordinating movements, who moves inside/outside at which time, shouldn't be a problem. What else is the job of the coach? Also the alternative is to play Suarez on the right wing. How does that make more sense, it clearly comes more unnatural to him to play on the right.

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Re: APOEL Nicosia 0 - FC Barcelona 4

Post by Bankz on Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:28 am

Bench neymar for pedro against ptb teams? Btw, neymar isnt really a winger, he's an henry/cr7 type of forward who starts moves from the left or plays in a free role (as proven in brazil NT). A typical winger no matter where he plays doesn't give you 13 goals in 12 starts, or score 40+ goals consistently (in santos) nor does he score 60+ goals in a calender year, nor do they know the art of stat padding. So theres got to be some genuine/polished killer instinct in him to be limited to just being a winger. If you ask me i'd rather have neymar than suarez against big or small teams any day of the week, as energy doesn't mean quality (yeah, i know its one of el vampito's selling points). The truth is suarez shouldn't have been bought if we weren't prepared to use messi on the right consistently (suarez isn't a right winger either). As this set-up will affect either one of neymar/suarez in the short and long term. And suarez is too good a player to be used in a pheripheral position.
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