CL Qual or EL?

Self-explanatory. No trolls please.

I go with EL trophy.

CL is for big clubs, whats the point of CL qualification when you have no chance?

Money, for one?
Prestige?
Being elite?
Global appeal?
More viewership?
Bigger fanbase?

srigooner wrote:Money, for one?
Prestige?
Being elite?
Global appeal?
More viewership?
Bigger fanbase?

We got all that and doing nothing about it.

Plus winning EL means you will play in CL the following year and with the new seeding system we might just end up playing EL after first round.

Winning the Europa League means qualifying for the Champions League now.

The Europa League is actually a great competition once you reach the knock-out rounds, but besides the prospect of winning a European trophy - albeit one not many give a shit about - I don't see a logical reason why anyone would consciously choose it over the Champions League.

From the club's perspective, they're going to get a large sum of money without even progressing that far in the tournament. From a fan's perspective, games against the top clubs in Europe are a hell of a lot more enticing than games against the "second best" Europe has to offer. With all due respect, you'd rather play against Bayern Munich or Barcelona in the CL knockouts than against Monchengladbach of Sevilla in the EL knockouts.

Having said that, if a scenario came about where we didn't qualify from our group and ended up in the Europa League, I wouldn't see that as humiliating as most probably would. Arsenal haven't really done anything in the Champions League that suggests they should be amongst the top, elite clubs of Europe, or that they're too big or too good for the Europa League. I'd find it a nice change of pace from making no progress in the Champions League.

GoonerJay29 wrote:Winning the Europa League means qualifying for the Champions League now.

The Europa League is actually a great competition once you reach the knock-out rounds, but besides the prospect of winning a European trophy - albeit one not many give a shit about - I don't see a logical reason why anyone would consciously choose it over the Champions League.

From the club's perspective, they're going to get a large sum of money without even progressing that far in the tournament. From a fan's perspective, games against the top clubs in Europe are a hell of a lot more enticing than games against the "second best" Europe has to offer. With all due respect, you'd rather play against Bayern Munich or Barcelona in the CL knockouts than against Monchengladbach of Sevilla in the EL knockouts.

Having said that, if a scenario came about where we didn't qualify from our group and ended up in the Europa League, I wouldn't see that as humiliating as most probably would. Arsenal haven't really done anything in the Champions League that suggests they should be amongst the top, elite clubs of Europe, or that they're too big or too good for the Europa League. I'd find it a nice change of pace from making no progress in the Champions League.

You see Jay. I simply don't get this. I see NO EVIDENCE of people not "giving a shit"

You're a Sevilla fan and have seen them win it three times in the last decade. The scenes, joy ecstasy and mood was electric all those times. Chelsea won their EL 12 months after winning their CL. Yet their players looked as ecstasic and celebrated Ivanovic's winner as much as they did with Drogba's penalty the year before.

Benfica, serial EL losers would kill for a Europa League trophy. Inter the same. AC Milan would kiss you on the forehead if offered to win the Europa League now. Liverpool the same (My biggest disappointment of the season). Europa League win would be Ajax' biggest achievement in 20 years...Giants of European football.

For a club like Arsenal who has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER won any sort of European trophy....a Europa League win is a new milestone. It's history. Anyone who looks down on that and "doesn't care" about it is a disgrace of a fan IMO.

Natalie Portman wrote:
For a club like Arsenal who has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER won any sort of European trophy....a Europa League win is a new milestone. It's history. Anyone who looks down on that and "doesn't care" about it is a disgrace of a fan IMO.

I could not agree more, though I have to correct you in that Arsenal HAVE won the Cup Winners Cup, which was one of the 3 big European trophies until it got incorporated into UEFA cup.

As for my part, I would have LOVED to win the UEFA Cup back in 2008 when we had missed out on CL, and Luca Toni's 2 improbable late goals in extra time to overcome Getafe in the quarters were pretty *bleep* sweet.

GoonerJay29 wrote:Winning the Europa League means qualifying for the Champions League now.

The Europa League is actually a great competition once you reach the knock-out rounds, but besides the prospect of winning a European trophy - albeit one not many give a shit about - I don't see a logical reason why anyone would consciously choose it over the Champions League.

From the club's perspective, they're going to get a large sum of money without even progressing that far in the tournament. From a fan's perspective, games against the top clubs in Europe are a hell of a lot more enticing than games against the "second best" Europe has to offer. With all due respect, you'd rather play against Bayern Munich or Barcelona in the CL knockouts than against Monchengladbach of Sevilla in the EL knockouts.

Having said that, if a scenario came about where we didn't qualify from our group and ended up in the Europa League, I wouldn't see that as humiliating as most probably would. Arsenal haven't really done anything in the Champions League that suggests they should be amongst the top, elite clubs of Europe, or that they're too big or too good for the Europa League. I'd find it a nice change of pace from making no progress in the Champions League.

This is all I am saying.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Natalie Portman wrote:
For a club like Arsenal who has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER won any sort of European trophy....a Europa League win is a new milestone. It's history. Anyone who looks down on that and "doesn't care" about it is a disgrace of a fan IMO.

I could not agree more, though I have to correct you in that Arsenal HAVE won the Cup Winners Cup, which was one of the 3 big European trophies until it got incorporated into UEFA cup.

As for my part, I would have LOVED to win the UEFA Cup back in 2008 when we had missed out on CL, and Luca Toni's 2 improbable late goals in extra time to overcome Getafe in the quarters were pretty *bleep* sweet.

Dat Arshavin and Pogrebnyak raping of Bayern in the semi

Natalie Portman wrote:You see Jay. I simply don't get this. I see NO EVIDENCE of people not "giving a shit"

You're a Sevilla fan and have seen them win it three times in the last decade. The scenes, joy ecstasy and mood was electric all those times. Chelsea won their EL 12 months after winning their CL. Yet their players looked as ecstasic and celebrated Ivanovic's winner as much as they did with Drogba's penalty the year before.

Benfica, serial EL losers would kill for a Europa League trophy. Inter the same. AC Milan would kiss you on the forehead if offered to win the Europa League now. Liverpool the same (My biggest disappointment of the season). Europa League win would be Ajax' biggest achievement in 20 years...Giants of European football.

For a club like Arsenal who has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER won any sort of European trophy....a Europa League win is a new milestone. It's history. Anyone who looks down on that and "doesn't care" about it is a disgrace of a fan IMO.

Granted this may be generalising, but the general attitude to the EL amongst other Arsenal fans that I've seen is that being in the competition is something of an embarrassment. No doubt this is influenced by Spurs always being in it. But then, fans are notoriously fickle. They'd start of not wanting to be in the Europa League, to celebrating it like any other trophy win if they win it.

Obviously I see the value of the competition through following a team that's actually in it. That goal by Mbia in the last minute at the Mestalla that sent Sevilla through to the final was one of the most epic moments in football I've seen. Moments like those are what competitions should be about. A competition's value shouldn't be determined by how much money your club can get by being in it; none of that money goes to the fans, so really they shouldn't care that much.

That's just the way it is right now, though. Clubs and managers have placed so much importance on CL qualification that it's become an accomplishment on its own.

For me this isn't even a debate.

I would take 1 Europa league win over a decade of round of 16/group stage CL exits

Natalie Portman wrote:

GoonerJay29 wrote:Winning the Europa League means qualifying for the Champions League now.

The Europa League is actually a great competition once you reach the knock-out rounds, but besides the prospect of winning a European trophy - albeit one not many give a shit about - I don't see a logical reason why anyone would consciously choose it over the Champions League.

From the club's perspective, they're going to get a large sum of money without even progressing that far in the tournament. From a fan's perspective, games against the top clubs in Europe are a hell of a lot more enticing than games against the "second best" Europe has to offer. With all due respect, you'd rather play against Bayern Munich or Barcelona in the CL knockouts than against Monchengladbach of Sevilla in the EL knockouts.

Having said that, if a scenario came about where we didn't qualify from our group and ended up in the Europa League, I wouldn't see that as humiliating as most probably would. Arsenal haven't really done anything in the Champions League that suggests they should be amongst the top, elite clubs of Europe, or that they're too big or too good for the Europa League. I'd find it a nice change of pace from making no progress in the Champions League.

You see Jay. I simply don't get this. I see NO EVIDENCE of people not "giving a shit"

You're a Sevilla fan and have seen them win it three times in the last decade. The scenes, joy ecstasy and mood was electric all those times. Chelsea won their EL 12 months after winning their CL. Yet their players looked as ecstasic and celebrated Ivanovic's winner as much as they did with Drogba's penalty the year before.

Benfica, serial EL losers would kill for a Europa League trophy. Inter the same. AC Milan would kiss you on the forehead if offered to win the Europa League now. Liverpool the same (My biggest disappointment of the season). Europa League win would be Ajax' biggest achievement in 20 years...Giants of European football.

for a club like Arsenal who has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER won any sort of European trophy....a Europa League win is a new milestone. It's history. Anyone who looks down on that and "doesn't care" about it is a disgrace of a fan IMO.

This 100%. We can't act like we are above the Europa league seeing as how we've never won it, or the CL. Sure we came close but, no cigar. But even then it doesn't matter. It is pretty disrespectful to act so high and mighty and indifferent towards competitions and tournaments when the large majority of football fans would absolutely kill to win.

GoonerJay29 wrote:

Natalie Portman wrote:You see Jay. I simply don't get this. I see NO EVIDENCE of people not "giving a shit"

You're a Sevilla fan and have seen them win it three times in the last decade. The scenes, joy ecstasy and mood was electric all those times. Chelsea won their EL 12 months after winning their CL. Yet their players looked as ecstasic and celebrated Ivanovic's winner as much as they did with Drogba's penalty the year before.

Benfica, serial EL losers would kill for a Europa League trophy. Inter the same. AC Milan would kiss you on the forehead if offered to win the Europa League now. Liverpool the same (My biggest disappointment of the season). Europa League win would be Ajax' biggest achievement in 20 years...Giants of European football.

For a club like Arsenal who has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER won any sort of European trophy....a Europa League win is a new milestone. It's history. Anyone who looks down on that and "doesn't care" about it is a disgrace of a fan IMO.

Granted this may be generalising, but the general attitude to the EL amongst other Arsenal fans that I've seen is that being in the competition is something of an embarrassment. No doubt this is influenced by Spurs always being in it. But then, fans are notoriously fickle. They'd start of not wanting to be in the Europa League, to celebrating it like any other trophy win if they win it.

Obviously I see the value of the competition through following a team that's actually in it. That goal by Mbia in the last minute at the Mestalla that sent Sevilla through to the final was one of the most epic moments in football I've seen. Moments like those are what competitions should be about. A competition's value shouldn't be determined by how much money your club can get by being in it; none of that money goes to the fans, so really they shouldn't care that much.

That's just the way it is right now, though. Clubs and managers have placed so much importance on CL qualification that it's become an accomplishment on its own.

To me it's embarrassing for Spurs because they play in it consistently, lose and go out in embarrassing fashions because they are upset they missed out on CL action yet again. If they want to be embarrassed and angry they are playing in that tournament then it's on them. There is no shame in playing in that tournament what's so ever. There is shame however in being pissy and the players acting like they are too good to be somewhere so that they eventually get knocked out and embarrassed by a self respecting club who actually wants to be there and puts the effort in

so far as I hate Hodgson , I still think he made the best thing when he put before the Uefa Cup to 2nd place ( at that time the only good for CL ) at the end  of season 97 , he played with half team of reserves against a precarious Roma before of Uefa Cup semi final against Monaco,  we tied 1-1 against Roma  losing 2  fuindametal points for 2nd place trophy competed with Parma.
Then he bottled it 100% losing Uefa Cup final and got 3rd place but otherwise he would not be Hodgson.
That Uefa Cup lost with penalty kicks against Schalke was atrocious , wining it just the following year was a real liberation, a  purification ...
Arsenal fans had same disappointment in past,  because some forget it but first European final got by Wenger was Uefa Cup 2000 against Galatasaray , lost to penalty kicks, wouldn't Arsenal fans like to delete this  a  day? Haven't you that final lost among the greatest disappointments as fan?
For me the matter CL qualification - winning EL is an absolute no contest for the 2nd , winning cups is the only thing I can be really satisfied , let alone if it is Europa League. Winning is beautiful  , but winning in Europe is simply special. It is a real event.
Perhaps Arsenal fans have a different conception of Europa League because they aren't used to play it , I can say I have for Uefa Cup 1998    sweet memories not  much different than Champions League 2010  , for me when you are going to win a Europpean cup you don't care really how much is important even if it is just Europa League . It is special  . When you get it , you realize it completely. yes ,even it is " just" Europa League.

Great responses by Jay and Vendetta and Robes. In terms of Mbia winner, I was actually gutted for two of my best friends who are Valencia season ticket holders and were in Mestalla. Poor bastards was inconsolable for a couple of days (Much like me after the slip)

We are fans, not accountants. We remember the finals. We remember tournament winning goals. We don't remember the table of PL from 10 years ago. Roughly maybe, but not accurately because those are forgotten through time.

Trophies, wins, one-off moments of passion and inspiration remain. I want to be able to tell my kid I was at Wembley/Warsaw when Coutinho scored a belter of a winner and won us the trophy. We all went mad, and then met up drinking and partying with the players...How proud I was....Not how happy and chuffed I was that we became the 4th team best in the country for the umpteenth time coming and have nothing to show for it. No brainer.

and Robes, yes...those finals are everything. Losing at Athens and FA Cup final to the scum that is Chelsea of all teams a few years ago are two of my darkest nights as a Liverpool fan. them and the Slip make up the top three.

I bet more Arsenal fans went nuts after Ramsey's ET winner last May that you all have gone combined other the 9 years before.

Trophies are fan's football. Money and Balance Sheet are corporate football.

I am positively surprised by the wonderful responses - top posts lads! Much respect

I am going to wait for some people to put in pro-CL responses too now

I don't think you will consciously try to qualify for Europa League. Arsenal will always be in mix for CL qualification.

What happens if you end up in Europa League (either by means of League position or by CL group stage results)!!! When (and if) such circumstance arises, you should try really hard to win it.

#1. You have good enough squad to go full-throttle in both (EPL & EL) competitions.

#2. Winning any trophy is great.

Natalie Portman wrote:
Trophies are fan's football. Money and Balance Sheet are corporate football.

This pretty much sums it up. Well almost - in an ideal world.

Let's put on a practical frame of glasses though. Given how much money runs football today, would fans be happy winning a EL trophy if the players get cherry picked by 'bigger' clubs, because the club's revenue streams take a hit?

Is it not a potential downward spiral?

Personally, I see a lot of positives for EL football. But my gut feeling is, without going into the exact money in the tournament, that the economics of EL just don't add up for a club challenging for a PL trophy, in terms of number of games, revenue generated, effort it takes, etc. Anyone seen any blogs/analysis putting numbers to this hunch?

(Sorry for a shoddy post with too many interlinked things squeezed in, in the middle of some other stuff right now)

Sepp made me shed a tear ffs.

Its sad that we have fans who would prefer CL spots instead of trophies and dont give a shit about matches like New Zealand vs Italy etc.

I would rather win the EL 2 times rather than finishing 4th for the CL spot 5 times. Heck i would even agree 3 League cups.

Yeah I would also choose trophies rather than finishing 4th to get CL and next season do absolutely nothing in CL but get embarrassed.

If we're talking barely qualifying for the top 4 vs. barely missing out but winning the EL after getting knocked out of the CL in the group stage, then yes obviously winning the EL. If the stipulation for the EL win is that we have to finish 5th and not play in the CL at all in the one year in question, well I guess it depends on what not qualifying for the CL does to our squad development - as in, will we still be able to bring in good players for long-term success? If there are long-term consequences then no I would not take EL first.

Anyway right now we seem to be improving the team during transfer windows so I expect the team to get better year by year for the foreseeable future. I hope I'm not just being overly optimistic on that...