UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by alexjanosik on Thu May 07, 2015 3:24 pm

@free_cat wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote: This Messi did show up to the WC... he was great for Argentina but if you surround him with only 1 forward up top for him to associate with, with a hyper defensive system that parks the bus, plays CBs for FBs, 2 DMs, etc he simply doesn't get into this kind of scoring chances. Without the Dani Alves run or Suarez making space for Messi in the box there was no first goal. While he was admittedly not at his best during the final, he was great all tournament and playing in a system that did not suit his strengths.


Except this Messi didnt show up.The Messi who showed up was scrub Messi who looked disinterested and walked around as if he owned the pitch.
I said the same as jd after the City game.If this Messi had shown up,Argentina walk the WC.It really is that simple.
Hummels and co could barely cotain a scrub Messi in the final.Aint no way a midfield of Schweinsteiger and Kroos contain this Messi.He would have smoked them.


I wonder if you'll ever understand that there isn't a "disinterested Messi who walks around as owning the pitch".

Time and again it has been proven that Messi is always hungry and only looks desintersted when he is not physically well (as he was last season or in certain games every now and then). Sometimes doesn't run much because of coach's instructions too, and last year he was also affected by his off the pitch problems.

I'm baffled that you still can't see this.


I dont think anything has been proven.He had a month long break in the middle of last season.He recuperated for a month in Argentina and was brought back only after he was fully fit.
And yet he comes back and puts in the same pathetic performances,looking disinterested and not putting in the effort.I mean he put in an abysmal effort in the league decider.
His WC effort was also not up to par.Guy just walked the entire time.He had injuries either in the run in last season or at the WC.Yet he was walking around majority of the games.
yes,you might say that he was physically not capable of running as much at the WC.But then if you say that,it is also his own fault.The guy spent a good part of 3 years barely doing any running.So ofcourse,suddenly he couldnt pick up the workrate when required.No professional player should be gassed after a sprint,which was routinely the case at the WC.
That is solely down to him and no external factors.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu May 07, 2015 3:39 pm

Alex I think it's borderline insulting to say he was disinterested in the World Cup final. Did you not see his face after the final? Is this not the same guy that said he would switch every title he has won at Barça for the WC?

Just because he was not running as much as you would like him to doesn't mean he did not put in a fair shift or that he was supposed to. The entire world Cup Messi was our offense, he had a free role. Sabella definitely asked him to carefully pick and choose the moments he would press, we were not playing possession, we were playing counter.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu May 07, 2015 3:45 pm

I think it's quite clear he wasn't physically the same as he is now. He looked like dribbling past players was really difficult for him where as now it looks really easy again.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu May 07, 2015 3:49 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:I think it's quite clear he wasn't physically the same as he is now. He looked like dribbling past players was really difficult for him where as now it looks really easy again.


Yep. Something was wrong with his physical state and it isn't anymore since about December hmm

I wonder what it was though, he looked bad too and then all the vomiting.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by free_cat on Thu May 07, 2015 3:51 pm

It has been proven like thousands of times that Messi, if asked to and in good physical shape, will run as much as he cans.

However, it's clear that he has a naturally poor stamina (how many professionals vomit on the pitch on a yearly basis...?) and can't do that the whole game, and much less several games in a row. And when he has injuries, less so.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by The Franchise on Thu May 07, 2015 3:56 pm

We going to go around in circles again right guys?

Someone say's Messi is lazy.

Another says he just is poor physically.

Next guy says if he is poor physically then why doesnt he accept being on the bench sometimes? Why doesnt he get subbed off sometimes?

Then we go back and forward and go nowhere.

Go back to Alves, that was the original point right?
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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by free_cat on Thu May 07, 2015 4:05 pm

All evidence points to what I'm saying. Labeling Messi as lazy or complacent is hate speach against him. For some inexplicable reason Alex has had a long time agenda against Messi and it should stop on the face of so much piling evidence. We the Church of Messi demand it to stop.

I also had agenda against Mascherano, but he is playing so well recently, even as a CB, that even I would play him as a starter in the following key games. Everyone should act rational and be able to change their opinions in the face of evidence.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 4:59 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:I just wrote this on Twitter :-

If this season's Lionel Messi had played WC 2014 Argentina would have won the trophy.

At least we should win Copa America 2015.

This Messi did show up to the WC... he was great for Argentina but if you surround him with only 1 forward up top for him to associate with, with a hyper defensive system that parks the bus, plays CBs for FBs, 2 DMs, etc he simply doesn't get into this kind of scoring chances. Without the Dani Alves run or Suarez making space for Messi in the box there was no first goal. While he was admittedly not at his best during the final, he was great all tournament and playing in a system that did not suit his strengths.

I partly agree with you.

1. Where I agree with you is on some of the limitations under which Messi had to work. If Di Maria and Aguero had been fully fit till the end some of these could have been overcome.

2. Where I don't agree with you is that I find this Messi much superior. Last season's Messi was a sleepwalker who had his brilliant moments. This season's Messi runs games and rules every moment on the pitch. I remember dani made an excellent comment that Messi will show more desire at the world cup than he did during the season but having not done it all year he will suddenly not be able to do it all. I think this is largely what happened. Instead if it had been the Messi of this season he would have done even more.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by alexjanosik on Thu May 07, 2015 5:00 pm

Its like Heath Ledger's joker says in TDKR.
I think myself and free are destined to do this forever.Occasionally we have to do the dance.
I dont have an agenda against Messi free.If you have read my posts this season,they have been glowing with praise.My only agenda is that he actually puts in some effort.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 5:01 pm

@free_cat wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:I read an article by 'Sid Lowe' about how there are fragments within Barcelona who hate Pep Guardiola and will not welcome him warmly. Maybe I'll share the link some time as I don't have it now.



Does anyone have a link to this article?

It's in my other laptop. I'll try to share it as soon as possible.


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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 5:07 pm

@eelir wrote:
I am so happy someone noticed that Iniesta is getting back to his old self. This is 2nd or 3rd game he is showing those glimpses. Let's hope he decided to up his game when we need it the most.

I am certainly pleased with the improvement and the words of praise from fellow Barca fans. However 'when we need it the most' may not apply any more. Due to the system in which we play and due to Messi now playing at a level which is even greater than his best levels of the past, Iniesta realistically cannot have much more than a functional role in this team. Nothing too bad about it. He is a true team player who'll do everything possible for the team. There are those beautiful memories to cherish forever. As for the future I think this summer neither Xavi nor Iniesta can leave because of the transfer ban. These guys are Barca thoroughbreds and cannot weaken the team at this point. Next summer Xavi could retire (or go off to play in MLS etc. for some time if he wants.) As for Iniesta I would like to see him at a lower profile club in another league where he can play as the team's most important player and bask in undivided adulation for two years or so, a bit like what Raul did at Schalke.

Another point I was wondering about today is that the arm band is Messi's to take whenever he wants. However it's possible that because of the kind of respect he has for Xavi and Iniesta, he won't ask for it until these two are there.

Finally a confession. I said last summer that I am not totally against considering the idea of selling Messi. It may seem utter madness but it was that Messi. This Messi can't even be sold for one billion euros.


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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 5:21 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:That's my only criticism of Pep, IMO Gotze should have started. He actually can carry the ball under pressure and provide service for those in front of him.

Of course the 352 as well but he fixed that pretty quickly.


Gotze has been playing like a scrub and based on his play this season,he is very poor at carrying the ball under pressure.
I think he deservedly sat on the bench as he just has not performed when it mattered.The Muller sub was weird though I agree.I thought he was arguably their best player.

Besides that I would also say that Muller is the most underrated player in the world and a big match performer. I would never have taken off a player who could any time give you that key moment, whether he was having a good game or not. Pep doesn't like the Muller types though. He is overtly fond of players with immense technical ability. So this did not surprise me.



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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 5:28 pm

@free_cat wrote:It has been proven like thousands of times that Messi, if asked to and in good physical shape, will run as much as he cans.

However, it's clear that he has a naturally poor stamina (how many professionals vomit on the pitch on a yearly basis...?) and can't do that the whole game, and much less several games in a row. And when he has injuries, less so.

This is the same kid who once suffered from hormonal deficiencies and has been sitting on top of the world for several years. Certain things in his body may still be affected by his past. His excellence though is a magical contrast.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 5:35 pm

@free_cat wrote:
I also had agenda against Mascherano, but he is playing so well recently, even as a CB, that even I would play him as a starter in the following key games. Everyone should act rational and be able to change their opinions in the face of evidence.

I am glad you said that. He may still lack a few things as a CB but seeing how he puts in his heart and soul for the team day in day out, he is one of those guys I feel bad for when he is criticized.


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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 5:47 pm

I'll say something that likely won't be liked.

For a coach to become truly legendary he needs to achieve supreme glory with at least two teams. When I say two teams it could be a different club but it need not be. The other option is it has to be a different generation. Like Sir Alex Ferguson who built different generations of teams.

So in order to define his legacy more emphatically Pep must build a world beating team without Messi in it, even if it is at Barcelona ten years from now.

Some would say he won the league titles convincingly but I would use a line from Carlo Garganese to reply to that - "A Sunday league coach would have won those titles". He actually said that about Roberto Mancini at Inter Milan but I say the same about Pep at Bayern Munich.

The problem essentially is how many top quality teams has Pep beaten as Bayern manager. The short answer is none. Ever since Dortmund deteriorated Bundesliga is a one team league. So Pep rarely gets to face a top quality team. However 0 out of 3 is same as 0 out of 300 i.e. zero. Whats worse is that he didn't lose those matches close - his teams got hammered. Being hammered two years in a row is not what one would associate with a top quality coach.

I am 99% sure Pep is out of Bayern this summer and will largely be regarded as a failure. I agree with that thought. Also the number of takers for him will be much less now than two years ago. Things can change so fast with time that it's hard to believe. I mean recall Rijkaard when he won UCL 2005-06 and for the last several months have you even seen his name mentioned anywhere.


Last edited by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by Myesyats on Thu May 07, 2015 5:51 pm

Pep tried to make Bayern play like his peak Barca. Unfortunately they don't have the players to do that and this style is not efficient anymore either way.
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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 6:00 pm

linetty wrote:Pep tried to make Bayern play like his peak Barca. Unfortunately they don't have the players to do that and this style is not efficient anymore either way.


I agree on both points.

1. Football evolves - why copy the style which once was supreme but now the world has moved on from.

2. The best of coaches should not be cent percent loyal to one style. They should look at the style of the team they have taken on and the players they have at their disposal to decide the best suited style.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu May 07, 2015 6:41 pm

linetty wrote:Pep tried to make Bayern play like his peak Barca. Unfortunately they don't have the players to do that and this style is not efficient anymore either way.
Has he really? He hasn't tried playing with a false 9, nor does he play primarily though the midfield, he is much more direct than prime Barça. I think his tenure at Bayern has proved he is much more practical than previously thought. He has even abandoned possession at times.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by messixaviesta on Thu May 07, 2015 7:04 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
linetty wrote:Pep tried to make Bayern play like his peak Barca. Unfortunately they don't have the players to do that and this style is not efficient anymore either way.
Has he really?  He hasn't tried playing with a false 9, nor does he play primarily though the midfield, he is much more direct than prime Barça. I think his tenure at Bayern has proved he is much more practical than previously thought. He has even abandoned possession at times.


Tell me something. If Pep didn't have the legacy that he had at Barca and was pretty much a nobody (or say moderately successful coach) how enthusiastically would you and others have defended a coach who got hammered in two successive UCLs?

I don't want to belittle his achievements at Barca one bit but I like to look at his work at Bayern independently and in all honesty it does not impress me - can be really great against decent teams but what at all has he managed against any top quality team.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu May 07, 2015 7:23 pm

Is that post really defending him, though? It's just stating differences.

In any case, of course not, but we have seen what he is capable of and frankly consistently getting a top 4 European finish is a good result. I really don't think you can ignore the injuries this year either. Definitely deserves the benefit of the doubt. Football is not just about results but also about quality of play and in this regard he is still very strong

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by jibers on Thu May 07, 2015 7:43 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
linetty wrote:Pep tried to make Bayern play like his peak Barca. Unfortunately they don't have the players to do that and this style is not efficient anymore either way.
Has he really?  He hasn't tried playing with a false 9, nor does he play primarily though the midfield, he is much more direct than prime Barça. I think his tenure at Bayern has proved he is much more practical than previously thought. He has even abandoned possession at times.


Tell me something. If Pep didn't have the legacy that he had at Barca and was pretty much a nobody (or say moderately successful coach) how enthusiastically would you and others have defended a coach who got hammered in two successive UCLs?

I don't want to belittle his achievements at Barca one bit but I like to look at his work at Bayern independently and in all honesty it does not impress me - can be really great against decent teams but what at all has he managed against any top quality team.


So getting hammered in cl semis is now some bad thing? Do you guys even listen to yourselves? Sir Alex (the supposed GOAT) won only 2 cls in 30+ years of managemtn and having a top team for over 10+ years aggregated. You seem to think that it is easy to get to a cl final. Baffling stuff. Bayern have too many injuries to their main players. If Messi, Neymar and Alves were missing yesterday and Bayern had a full strength team what do you think would have been the result?

Too many people have a distorted view of success and it clouds their analysis. Last year he abandoned his principles in the 4-0 return leg, this year they have been ridiculously unfortunate with injuries, what should he do? I'm tired of people expecting Pep to win the cl every single year.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by Donuts on Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm

it seems like Pep will only ever get praise for the rest of his career only if he wins the champions league

sounds about fair.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by jibers on Thu May 07, 2015 7:52 pm

@Donuts wrote:it seems like Pep will only ever get praise for the rest of his career only if he wins the champions league

sounds about fair.


If he only wins no more cls he has still had a great career and will be one of the best coaches in history alongside Michels, Saachi, Cruijff, Chapman, Sam Allardyce, Ernst Happs and Herrera etc

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by futbol on Thu May 07, 2015 8:00 pm



GOATze. Laughing

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by jibers on Thu May 07, 2015 8:11 pm

Fußball wrote:

GOATze. Laughing


Gotze: I joined Bayern to be coached by Pep

rofl

The guy just doesn't GAF.

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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

Post by The Franchise on Thu May 07, 2015 11:04 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:I'll say something that likely won't be liked.

For a coach to become truly legendary he needs to achieve supreme glory with at least two teams. When I say two teams it could be a different club but it need not be. The other option is it has to be a different generation. Like Sir Alex Ferguson who built different generations of teams.

So in order to define his legacy more emphatically Pep must build a world beating team without Messi in it, even if it is at Barcelona ten years from now.

Some would say he won the league titles convincingly but I would use a line from Carlo Garganese to reply to that - "A Sunday league coach would have won those titles". He actually said that about Roberto Mancini at Inter Milan but I say the same about Pep at Bayern Munich.

The problem essentially is how many top quality teams has Pep beaten as Bayern manager. The short answer is none. Ever since Dortmund deteriorated Bundesliga is a one team league. So Pep rarely gets to face a top quality team. However 0 out of 3 is same as 0 out of 300 i.e. zero. Whats worse is that he didn't lose those matches close - his teams got hammered. Being hammered two years in a row is not what one would associate with a top quality coach.

I am 99% sure Pep is out of Bayern this summer and will largely be regarded as a failure. I agree with that thought. Also the number of takers for him will be much less now than two years ago. Things can change so fast with time that it's hard to believe. I mean recall Rijkaard when he won UCL 2005-06 and for the last several months have you even seen his name mentioned anywhere.

So would you say Sacchi is not a legendary coach?

I cant agree with your assertion simply because I cant equate winning to the degree you are. This is a game for the players, the players decide everything and the coach can put his players into a position to win and nothing more. That to me is the job of a coach, to put his players in a position to win...the best coaches do it in a special way and give the players that little extra chance, be it motivational, tactically or whichever.
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Re: UCL | 1/2 (1st Leg) | FC Barcelona vs FC Bayern Munich

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