Copa América 2015

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Post by guest_07 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:51 am

@jibers wrote:For me Riquelme is more complete than Messi (:


for me, riquelme actually a combination of xavi + iniesta + messi

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Post by jibers on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:53 am

@Casciavit wrote:Messi is a smart player, but I really am surprised as to why he refused to change up his game when it clearly wasn't working. Chile were making sure his back was facing the goal and when he did regain his balance and faced forward they slide tackled the ball off him.

Should have switched it up with off the ball runs or stay wide and actually play as a winger.


This was key. Wanted the ball too feet too often and didn't help his team at all. Embarrassing game from him tbh.

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Post by Perucho21 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:54 am

Guest_07 Will there ever be an Argentine squad as talented as the one in 2006?

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Post by Casciavit on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:55 am

@jibers wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:Messi is a smart player, but I really am surprised as to why he refused to change up his game when it clearly wasn't working. Chile were making sure his back was facing the goal and when he did regain his balance and faced forward they slide tackled the ball off him.

Should have switched it up with off the ball runs or stay wide and actually play as a winger.


This was key. Wanted the ball too feet too often  and didn't help his team at all. Embarrassing game from him tbh.


Exactly. Their was a moment during the end of the game where Argentina got a counter from a corner and Pastore was running with the ball. Instead of moving away from Pastore and continuing his run he instead went closer to him. I was bemused. And tbh it goes to show what type of player he's become these days.

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Post by Doc on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:19 am

I see the disappointment train that is Argentina made a stop in familiar territory. Not that I am anyway surprised they lost but I honestly thought they finally got over their choking ways by making the final.

Turns out they did exactly what I thought at the start of the tourney. Congrats to Chile though. You guys did alright I guess Very Happy

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Post by Doc on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:29 am

Also, I don't find this edition of Argentina is any better than other editions. They are more talented than their opponents including Chile (oddly enough) but best squad of all time or even the past 20 years?! Not in my opinion...

Argentina squad going to Japan/South Korea for 2002 World Cup had the following:
Crespo, Batistuta, Ayala, Pochentino, Sorin, Veron, Zanetti, Claudio Lopez, Almeyda, Placente, Gustavo Lopez, Simeone, Aimar, Kily Gonzalez and Gallardo.

Riquelme, Di Alessandro, Saviola, Tevez and then wonderkid Fernando Cavenaghi (now nomad striker, also subject to correction, just remember he was highly rated at River) were all left out.

Argentina have been loaded before and would probably be loaded after. Just, you know, not even Messi can prevent their disappointing ways.

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Post by titosantill on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:41 am

i totally forgot about that 02 squad, that team too should be disappointed for not getting out the first round of that world cup. batistuta was on his last legs but the depth and talent on that team, it was absolutely shameful....another thing about international tournaments, u can have all the depth, but it only helps in a long drawn out season. in tournaments where u need a moment of genius more than anything, depth can sometimes hardly matter. aside from the goal keeper, argentina in 2002 must have at least 2 fantastic players in every position (btw saviola wasn't called up, i think the coach said he was too young or something to that effect. neither was tevez, he hand't started making his name yet)
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Post by guest_07 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:45 am

@Perucho21 wrote:Guest_07 Will there ever be an Argentine squad as talented as the one in 2006?


in term of talent, i think argentina 2002 was more talented as per what doc said

2006 looks more balance between attacking & defensive unit

i think argentina can produce so many talented player in the future but i doubt there will be another riquelme

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Post by guest_07 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:54 am

@titosantill wrote:i totally forgot about that 02 squad, that team too should be disappointed for not getting out the first round of that world cup. batistuta was on his last legs but the depth and talent on that team, it was absolutely shameful....another thing about international tournaments, u can have all the depth, but it only helps in a long drawn out season. in tournaments where u need a moment of genius more than anything, depth can sometimes hardly matter. aside from the goal keeper, argentina in 2002 must have at least 2 fantastic players in every position (btw saviola wasn't called up, i think the coach said he was too young or something to that effect. neither was tevez, he hand't started making his name yet)


bielsa regarding the riquelme that been left out from the 2002 wc squad:

Bielsa-Riquelme: A saga nearing its final chapter

   For some strange reasons, Marcelo Bielsa, the Argentine national coach, seems to give a knock out to Juan Roman Riquelme, the Boca superstar and the South American player of the year. Roman is an idol, humble, and the most important of all, he is a great person. It seems that Bielsa is following the path of Cesar Luis Menotti for leaving Diego Armando Maradona out of the 1978 squad.

   It seems that Bielsa does not give any importance to the local championship in Argentina. It seems that he has ignored the accomplishments of Juan Roman Riquelme. Riquelme is actually the best footballer in South America. He has proven it to the whole world. Now, one has to question Bielsa for leaving him out of the squad that will face Germany on April 17th. It does not matter if Argentina do have players such as Veron, Aimar, Gallardo. Today, Riquelme is the best Argentine player on the planet; many sports journalists will agree with me. It seems that for a player to earn Bielsa’s confidence, he must be playing in Europe. This is a nonsense approach taken by the Argentina coach.

   Riquelme has played against the Luis Figo, Raul, and Makelele of Real Madrid. In the 2000 Intercontinental cup against Real Madrid, Roman displayed a magnificent performance and earned Boca Juniors, the championship trophy. In the 2001 Intercontinental Cup against Bayern Munich, Riquelme had given the game to Boca in the first few minutes, but el Chelo Delgado could not finish these golden opportunities. Although Boca lost the championship trophy, Riquelme was up to the task and played very well against the Jeremies, the Kahn, the Kuffour of the Bayern Munich team. Today, It is fair to question Bielsa's decision for not calling Riquelme.

   One might say well, Argentina has many talented players and Bielsa does not have to call Riquelme. If we have to judge based on talent alone, Riquelme is clearly at the top of the list. In Bielsa’s press conference, he stated that the list against Germany does not exclude any player from going to the World Cup that does not get the call today. It seems that Bielsa is playing with people’s intelligence thinking that he is addressing his remarks to an idiotic audience. It is not the time to put a spin on the Riquelme situation. It is time for Bielsa to be honest and let the Argentine fans know that Riquelme won’t be in the World Cup. If Riquelme does not go to this World Cup, Bielsa will clearly do a disfavor to the people of Argentina. In Argentina, Juan Roman Riquelme, does have the status of Diego Armando Maradona. In Argentina, Juan Roman Riquelme, brings passion to the fans of Boca Juniors and joy to the people. In the world, he is praised by Ronaldo, Maradona, Raul, Roberto Carlos, and many others. Roman does not like to talk. He mostly does his talking on the field. He has been playing without a contract for Boca Juniors for more than two years; yet, he has still shown up for practice on time and has given his best on the soccer field.

   Besides being a football player, Juan Roman Riquelme is also a great person. He is humble, responsible, and a team player. He is a joy to coach. What impresses me the most about Riquelme is that the way he comforts himself in public. During the award ceremony for the 2001 South American Football player of the year, Riquelme stated that: “There’s no other trophy more important than the trophy of the people.” Coming from a family of 11, he has also provided for his brothers, sisters and parents.

   It will be quite devastating for Riquelme not to make the World Cup. But, Roman will have another chance, and will move on. After what he has accomplished during his young 23 years, there’s no excuse for Bielsa not to call him. There’s no excuse whatsoever. Yes, there’s Veron; yes, there is Aimar; and yes, there’s Gallardo. Why not a Riquelme? Is that because he is not playing for some European team?. Is that because he is playing in the national league of his country? If this is Bielsa’s hypothesis for not selecting Riquelme, it will be a total disgrace to his country. Don’t think that I don’t applaud Bielsa’s work with the Argentine national team, but there are some players that deserve to be in the World Cup after what they have proved on the field. A player like Riquelme earns that spot. Riquelme earns it, Bielsa! He deserves to be in Korea/Japan.

   Perhaps, I could understand why Menotti did not call Maradona at 17 years old, but at 23, Riquelme shows that he is a mature young man and a football hero in Argentina. Certain coaches are making some decisions that fans cannot seem to understand. It seems that Bielsa is following the path of Scolari for leaving out Romario from the Brazilian squad. Romario and Riquelme are respectively the two best South American players for 2000 and 2001. These two best players are likely not to be part of the 2002 World Cup due to Scolari and Bielsa's decisions. I hope that national pressure will force these coaches to call these players. They earn it on the field and they deserve to be there.

   No matter what happens, these players will continue to support their national team and we will have the opportunity to see Riquelme in 2006, but we may not see Romario again. It is indeed quite a dilemma to many fans in the world and to the people of Argentina and Brazil, but again the decision of the coach must be respected one way or the other. I can’t wait to see the list announced by Bielsa and Scolari. Sooner or later we will find out. I can guarantee you that there will be some injustice. But, it is up to the fans to put pressure on the national coach.

   On the injury of David Beckham, I hope that he does recover in time for the World Cup. It is unfortunate what had happened to him, and too bad that it was caused by an Argentine player. David is a great player and thus the fans from all over the world wish him a great recovery before the World Cup starts. From all of us from worldcuparchive.com, we are looking forward to seeing you defending the colors of England in Korea/Japan. Let’s hope that we won’t hear any of the injuries before the World Cup and the players will play in a precautionary manner to protect their opponents from these devastating injuries.

http://www.planetworldcup.com/GUESTS/pierre20020415.html

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Post by Winter is Coming on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:57 am

Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

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Post by Art Morte on Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:01 am

Happy for Chile.

Tough on Argentina to lose the WC and Copa America finals in successive summers.
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Post by futbol on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:06 am

I fell asleep around the 87 minute mark. Woke up and see Argentina has actually choked. lmao Some things never change. Proud

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Post by windkick on Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:11 am

As a neutral, I honestly thought it was two teams that were playing there asses off and both did all possible to prevent the other from doing anything significant in attack for long stretches. Hats off to Chile for that performance and once it got to the PK's, with the crowd behind them I didn't think Argentina would have anything left emotionally to give at that point.

Really sucks for Messi going forward, knowing he could of had a World Cup and a Copa America back to back and fell short. I know the "Messi is over rated until he wins with Argentina" haters are out in full swing, but again as a neutral when on the National level I can't help but feel for Argentina and it's fans. I couldn't imagine the heart break I would have if my NT got that close to glory two consecutive summers and lost.

As far as the haters eating this up and bashing on Messi and all that, I find it pretty ridiculous just how everyone was in awe of him just the game before this, and during the 2nd half of the league in all 3 tournaments. The guys human and can be stopped, my real question marks are actually on the the other Argentina forwards. I mean a team with Kun, di Maria, Lavezzi, Pastore and then Higuain and they hardly get anything going on attack? Messi had like 2-3 guys in his zone at all times, yet some how the other guys can't get nothing going? And it wasn't just this game, it's been going on since the World Cup, Argentina seemed to fix it's back line and now has a great defense but it's once terrifying attacking hardly scores anymore. And no that's not Messi's fault that Argentina's entire attack hasn't been scoring.

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Post by guest_07 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:42 am

@windkick wrote:As a neutral, I honestly thought it was two teams that were playing there asses off and both did all possible to prevent the other from doing anything significant in attack for long stretches. Hats off to Chile for that performance and once it got to the PK's, with the crowd behind them I didn't think Argentina would have anything left emotionally to give at that point.

Really sucks for Messi going forward, knowing he could of had a World Cup and a Copa America back to back and fell short. I know the "Messi is over rated until he wins with Argentina" haters are out in full swing, but again as a neutral when on the National level I can't help but feel for Argentina and it's fans. I couldn't imagine the heart break I would have if my NT got that close to glory two consecutive summers and lost.

As far as the haters eating this up and bashing on Messi and all that, I find it pretty ridiculous just how everyone was in awe of him just the game before this, and during the 2nd half of the league in all 3 tournaments. The guys human and can be stopped, my real question marks are actually on the the other Argentina forwards. I mean a team with Kun, di Maria, Lavezzi, Pastore and then Higuain and they hardly get anything going on attack? Messi had like 2-3 guys in his zone at all times, yet some how the other guys can't get nothing going? And it wasn't just this game, it's been going on since the World Cup, Argentina seemed to fix it's back line and now has a great defense but it's once terrifying attacking hardly scores anymore. And no that's not Messi's fault that Argentina's entire attack hasn't been scoring.


that's the problem i as an argentina team fan witness with this team from 2000 till now, nobody stepped up when their best player been neutralized, even though with some talented players as teammate

it happen with riquelme, it happen again with messi

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Post by Robespierre on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:23 am

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Medel Proud
I always made this when I played to Tekken 3
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Post by eelir on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:37 am

@windkick wrote:As a neutral, I honestly thought it was two teams that were playing there asses off and both did all possible to prevent the other from doing anything significant in attack for long stretches. Hats off to Chile for that performance and once it got to the PK's, with the crowd behind them I didn't think Argentina would have anything left emotionally to give at that point.

Really sucks for Messi going forward, knowing he could of had a World Cup and a Copa America back to back and fell short. I know the "Messi is over rated until he wins with Argentina" haters are out in full swing, but again as a neutral when on the National level I can't help but feel for Argentina and it's fans. I couldn't imagine the heart break I would have if my NT got that close to glory two consecutive summers and lost.

As far as the haters eating this up and bashing on Messi and all that, I find it pretty ridiculous just how everyone was in awe of him just the game before this, and during the 2nd half of the league in all 3 tournaments. The guys human and can be stopped, my real question marks are actually on the the other Argentina forwards. I mean a team with Kun, di Maria, Lavezzi, Pastore and then Higuain and they hardly get anything going on attack? Messi had like 2-3 guys in his zone at all times, yet some how the other guys can't get nothing going? And it wasn't just this game, it's been going on since the World Cup, Argentina seemed to fix it's back line and now has a great defense but it's once terrifying attacking hardly scores anymore. And no that's not Messi's fault that Argentina's entire attack hasn't been scoring.


This! From tactical point of view it has been an interesting game how both teams were set up to minimize the mistakes at the back. At the same time players such as Messi and Sanchez were being stopped with fouls all the time. That is fine, but Argentina had a great attacking outlet on paper, and if Messi could pull out 2-3 Chileans out, imagine the space left for the other attackers. This has been Barcas problem as well before Neymar stepped out and Suarez was allowed to play. Argentina was hurt badly by the loss of Di Maria as well.
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Post by BusterLfc on Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:38 am

I came to a conclusion after this CA, precisely a question: Why hasn't Valdivia ever played in Europe?
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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:49 am

@ahmad25 wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:
@nasir6371 wrote:


Half the game he was walking around and never appear to have any sense of urgency.

I don't doubt Messi's talent one slightest bit but being the best that can possibly be is about a little more than talent. Does Messi lack just a little bit in terms of heart and mental toughness in the tightest, hardest and most crucial of occasions? Maybe having top quality players in Barcelona alongside him, some of whom are marginally superior to him in terms of heart and mental toughness, makes us rarely see these shortcomings there but with the national team even though there are a few players like Mascherano who have as much heart and toughness as possible, not having as much talent as Barca, exposes these shortcomings of Messi all the more.

Maradona was Maradona not just for his talent but also for his determination, fighting spirit, mental toughness and leadership (ability to drive his team and bring the best out of others). Maybe in spite of being just as talented if not more Messi can never be Maradona and maybe this is the reason for it.

Maybe this is just a knee jerk reaction from me. Maybe more. I don't know and maybe will never know.
actually there was no space to play. Chile players worked like horse and triple marked messi. There was no any moment that i would think "messi could do better there". As soon as ball reached him 2-3 players pressed and pushed him. In this situations team play would be useful but argentina has no team play. All of them are overrated headless chickens with 0 passing ability except messi and aguero. Thats why i dont rate this so called super stars team highly. Average teams outhsine them even Iran made them to look like a joke


Yes they did but I think things could have looked a little different if Messi had taken the proverbial bull by the horns so to say. If instead of cowering down he had shown more heart and running (both on and especially off the ball) and maybe spoken a little more to his team mates then they would have rallied alongside him. The inspiration was missing. Argentina do not have anyone else and they only look at Messi for inspiration. If he is dull then we are dull. The game's greats had one quality that Messi lacks - bringing the best out of team mates. About Messi of all people I think Juan Sebastian Veron said it best. I am quoting below his words in bold.

"You have to leave Messi to do his own thing. He will never be a Maradona and drive the team."

Strangely after all these years of watching Messi I am struggling to think of even one match in which he drove his team. He is always about exceptional individual brilliance, the great one twos, the visionary passes, the memorable dribbles, the great goals, etc. but there have never been that much about co-ordination and drive. Most of the times his talent makes these other things meaningless but there are those times when I think it's these things that make the difference between winning and losing.

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:56 am

@Casciavit wrote:Have to give it to Sampaoli, Chile looked much better than Arg during the game. Set up his team amazingly well in terms of defending against Leo. His team talk pre-shootout must have worked wonders too, considering the players had a cocky swagger and were extremely confident while Argentina and Masche were crying.

Deserved win.

I take my hat off to you for pointing out Argentina would struggle against Chile's pressing. I thought it would still be better than playing teams that sit back and refuse to play football but I was wrong and you were right.


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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 pm

@breva wrote:Maradona is Maradona, only Pele is comparable.  Messi is a great player, but no Maradona (or Pele).  In a game like this Maradona would have had the ball nearly continuously until an Argentina goal was scored.  Sanchez, though much less talented than Maradona, looked more like Maradona in this game.

Pele is the confusing one here. He played in teams where there was too much brilliance all around him. Do we know of many occasions when he drove his team almost single handedly? Now I am not claiming that he couldn't have done it. I am just giving him the benefit of doubt for situations that he may have hardly faced. Some believed that Pele instead of Maradona couldn't have won Argentina WC 1986 and I am one of those. I guess we all pretty much agree that Diego Maradona is the greatest footballer ever not just for his talent but for the sum total of all the qualities he exuded on the football pitch. I am not even a Maradona fan, more a hater, but truth has to be told.

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Post by S on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:03 pm

El Shaarawy wrote:Copa América 2015 - Page 30 CJG0WStUwAAayBB

Who's that with the Juve shirt hmm
His cousin apparently.
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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:04 pm

@breva wrote:He also displayed his talent with defenders that took no prisoners and could foul at will.  

This is one key point that was circling in my mind last night. If Messi can't handle this much tackling and man marking what would have happened to him if he had to face the Claudio Gentiles of this world?


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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:09 pm

@guest_07 wrote:which performance was better?

messi vs chile, 2015 copa america final



or

riquelme vs brazil, 2007 copa america final


Both were awful. These players would be thankful to us if we never reminded them of these matches.

BTW as a huge fan of Riquelme do you know who is that one player about whom your idol keeps saying that when he watches him play he feels that there is still a lot he can learn about the game?

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:16 pm

@Casciavit wrote:Messi is a smart player, but I really am surprised as to why he refused to change up his game when it clearly wasn't working. Chile were making sure his back was facing the goal and when he did regain his balance and faced forward they slide tackled the ball off him.

Should have switched it up with off the ball runs or stay wide and actually play as a winger.

Good point but to do all that he would need more heart, more toughness, more stamina and more belief besides of course more thought. Unfortunately he lacked everyone of those things.


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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:18 pm

@guest_07 wrote:
@jibers wrote:For me Riquelme is more complete than Messi (:


for me, riquelme actually a combination of xavi + iniesta + messi

I see Zidane sometimes as a mini combination of Xavi and Iniesta and Riquelme as a mini Zidane but the Messi part is too much here.


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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:21 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
@jibers wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:Messi is a smart player, but I really am surprised as to why he refused to change up his game when it clearly wasn't working. Chile were making sure his back was facing the goal and when he did regain his balance and faced forward they slide tackled the ball off him.

Should have switched it up with off the ball runs or stay wide and actually play as a winger.


This was key. Wanted the ball too feet too often  and didn't help his team at all. Embarrassing game from him tbh.


Exactly. Their was a moment during the end of the game where Argentina got a counter from a corner and Pastore was running with the ball. Instead of moving away from Pastore and continuing his run he instead went closer to him. I was bemused. And tbh it goes to show what type of player he's become these days.

Yes affected by that very dangerous and potentially incurable disease called LAZINESS .

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