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Re: Iniesta

Post by Doc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:51 am

People didn't suddenly start to bash him nor does everyone think he is the best at anything far less for being the best DM around. Barcelona fans aside, he is a footballer that can split hairs in a discussion about him so this is nothing new. Many rate him, many don't.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by CBarca on Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:46 am

Annnd I still think that signing Vidal would have been a good option.

But according to some Barca fans, he's shit.

Agreed that Busquets has a lot more on his hands these days. Still the best DM in the world but Enrique's system doesn't allow him to look like it.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Lucifer on Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:25 am

@CBarca wrote:Annnd I still think that signing Vidal would have been a good option.

But according to some Barca fans, he's shit.

Agreed that Busquets has a lot more on his hands these days. Still the best DM in the world but Enrique's system doesn't allow him to look like it.
then what about last year he seemed pretty comfortable in Enrique system! hmm
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Re: Iniesta

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:31 am

@jibers wrote:Busquets is a good DM at what he does, I would rather have Javi Martinez as my #4. Busquets is too physically weak and always tries to overplay. Great for the system Pep had but under Enrique there is no protection for him and the defence, at least this season so they encounter 1 on ones a lot more and has never been a great one on one player, like Alonso.


Busquets is one super smart douchebag. Similar to Muller in the aspect tbh. After Messi and Neymar the player I would like to have at Madrid.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Lucifer on Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:40 am

@Valkyrja wrote:
@jibers wrote:Busquets is a good DM at what he does, I would rather have Javi Martinez as my #4. Busquets is too physically weak and always tries to overplay. Great for the system Pep had but under Enrique there is no protection for him and the defence, at least this season so they encounter 1 on ones a lot more and has never been a great one on one player, like Alonso.


Busquets is one super smart douchebag. Similar to Muller in the aspect tbh. After Messi and Neymar the player I would like to have at Madrid.
am with u fellow rival. People dnt seem to rate him because he doesn't make those Hollywood passes or long balls I think. What he does no other player I think of can. His ball distribution, vision and decision making is second to none imo. Also offers so much defensively yeah sometimes shits who doesn't.
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Re: Iniesta

Post by jibers on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:10 am

@Valkyrja wrote:
@jibers wrote:Busquets is a good DM at what he does, I would rather have Javi Martinez as my #4. Busquets is too physically weak and always tries to overplay. Great for the system Pep had but under Enrique there is no protection for him and the defence, at least this season so they encounter 1 on ones a lot more and has never been a great one on one player, like Alonso.


Busquets is one super smart douchebag. Similar to Muller in the aspect tbh. After Messi and Neymar the player I would like to have at Madrid.


Super smart is fine but again, that hasn't addressed what I said. He lacks athleticism and isn't a great tackler if you are contstnatly being faced with one on ones. In a double Pivote I would take Javi Martinez over Busquets every single time. Higher ground coverage and a far better tackler. In the system Barcelona used to use it amplified all of Busquets strengths and hid all his weaknesses. He is 'exposed' now because he has less cover.

Nothing wrong with that, I don't think there is any best DM. It all depends on the team around them and the role they would play. This isn't some plug 'n' play stuff from football manager.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by free_cat on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:29 am

@jibers wrote:Busquets is a good DM at what he does, I would rather have Javi Martinez as my #4. Busquets is too physically weak and always tries to overplay. Great for the system Pep had but under Enrique there is no protection for him and the defence, at least this season so they encounter 1 on ones a lot more and has never been a great one on one player, like Alonso.


So why were last season's Barça so good defensively? Best in Europe?

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Re: Iniesta

Post by free_cat on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:30 am

@CBarca wrote:Annnd I still think that signing Vidal would have been a good option.

But according to some Barca fans, he's shit.

Agreed that Busquets has a lot more on his hands these days. Still the best DM in the world but Enrique's system doesn't allow him to look like it.


Vidal is not shit, but definitely not good enough on the ball for us. I thought he was extremely poor in the CL final too tbh.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by jibers on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:45 am

@free_cat wrote:
@jibers wrote:Busquets is a good DM at what he does, I would rather have Javi Martinez as my #4. Busquets is too physically weak and always tries to overplay. Great for the system Pep had but under Enrique there is no protection for him and the defence, at least this season so they encounter 1 on ones a lot more and has never been a great one on one player, like Alonso.


So why were last season's Barça so good defensively? Best in Europe?


They faced less one on ones because the team had more intensity so Iniesta and Rakitic were working double time to cover fbs runs whilst Rakitic covered Messi as well as ALves. This season the intensity from the front 3 is not as good and there is no pressing, so teams are getting into better situations to get one vs ones aganst your players. Busquets is good at cutting off passing lanes but one on ones, I wouldn't fancy him. Still a good defensive mf but again, a team is meant to amplify your strengths and cover weaknesses. In this situation I would take Martinez, he ins't better, but for this situation he would do better. If the intensity picks up again Busquets will be fine.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:24 am

I can understand wanting Martinez as a preference Jibers but in general i don't agree.

When ever it mattered last year Busquets locked down the opposition's biggest threat and is clearly the best DM in the world for me.

What he does in meaningless games against Celta i couldn't care less about tbh, just when it matters he has consistently over his career stopped the very best CMs/AMs around more so than any other DM in the game tbh.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by jibers on Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:29 am

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:I can understand wanting Martinez as a preference Jibers but in general i don't agree.

When ever it mattered last year Busquets locked down the opposition's biggest threat and is clearly the best DM in the world for me.

What he does in meaningless games against Celta i couldn't care less about tbh, just when it matters he has consistently over his career stopped the very best CMs/AMs around more so than any other DM in the game tbh.


Yes, because he was protected by the system Barcelona use. I wouldn't replace him with Matic at Chelsea for example. He is the best at what he does but saying he is the best dm is just an arbitrary term to me. Barcelona dominated teams because of the players coupled with the positional structure of the team.

Busquets shut off teams because he was in the best environment to do so. Under immense pressure I would pick Martinez over him. As I said, it's not about better/worse but more of the situation. The only defensive mf that stands above all in my lifetime is Rijkaard.

The system United are playing now Busquets would be perfect but under SAF I would have preferred another DM in a double pivote.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Lucifer on Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:38 am

@jibers wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:I can understand wanting Martinez as a preference Jibers but in general i don't agree.

When ever it mattered last year Busquets locked down the opposition's biggest threat and is clearly the best DM in the world for me.

What he does in meaningless games against Celta i couldn't care less about tbh, just when it matters he has consistently over his career stopped the very best CMs/AMs around more so than any other DM in the game tbh.


Yes, because he was protected by the system Barcelona use. I wouldn't replace him with Matic at Chelsea for example. He is the best at what he does but saying he is the best dm is just an arbitrary term to me. Barcelona dominated teams because of the players coupled with the positional structure of the team.

Busquets shut off teams because he was in the best environment to do so. Under immense pressure I would pick Martinez over him. As I said, it's not about better/worse but more of the situation. The only defensive mf that stands above all in my lifetime is Rijkaard.

The system United are playing now Busquets would be perfect but under SAF I would have preferred another DM in a double pivote.
yet u want Martinez over him hmm
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Re: Iniesta

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:38 am

I don't think that's true because when he's not there they struggle to get out of their own half Laughing

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Re: Iniesta

Post by jibers on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:07 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:I don't think that's true because when he's not there they struggle to get out of their own half Laughing


That's because of the way Barcelona play. As I said, he is the best at what he does...

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:19 pm

@jibers wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:I can understand wanting Martinez as a preference Jibers but in general i don't agree.

When ever it mattered last year Busquets locked down the opposition's biggest threat and is clearly the best DM in the world for me.

What he does in meaningless games against Celta i couldn't care less about tbh, just when it matters he has consistently over his career stopped the very best CMs/AMs around more so than any other DM in the game tbh.


Yes, because he was protected by the system Barcelona use. I wouldn't replace him with Matic at Chelsea for example. He is the best at what he does but saying he is the best dm is just an arbitrary term to me. Barcelona dominated teams because of the players coupled with the positional structure of the team.

Busquets shut off teams because he was in the best environment to do so. Under immense pressure I would pick Martinez over him. As I said, it's not about better/worse but more of the situation. The only defensive mf that stands above all in my lifetime is Rijkaard.

The system United are playing now Busquets would be perfect but under SAF I would have preferred another DM in a double pivote.


How highly do you rate Redondo ?

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Re: Iniesta

Post by jibers on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:27 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:
@jibers wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:I can understand wanting Martinez as a preference Jibers but in general i don't agree.

When ever it mattered last year Busquets locked down the opposition's biggest threat and is clearly the best DM in the world for me.

What he does in meaningless games against Celta i couldn't care less about tbh, just when it matters he has consistently over his career stopped the very best CMs/AMs around more so than any other DM in the game tbh.


Yes, because he was protected by the system Barcelona use. I wouldn't replace him with Matic at Chelsea for example. He is the best at what he does but saying he is the best dm is just an arbitrary term to me. Barcelona dominated teams because of the players coupled with the positional structure of the team.

Busquets shut off teams because he was in the best environment to do so. Under immense pressure I would pick Martinez over him. As I said, it's not about better/worse but more of the situation. The only defensive mf that stands above all in my lifetime is Rijkaard.

The system United are playing now Busquets would be perfect but under SAF I would have preferred another DM in a double pivote.


How highly do you rate Redondo ?


Very good player but he was too vertical . lost possession needlessly. He would go on a mazing run then lose the ball then dive. Technically he was excellent but I would rather have someone disciplined as my pivote tbh.

Also, I guess the fact that he was the only capable ball player from deep may skew my perception a bit. He was fantastic nonetheless. Regista like.


Last edited by jibers on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Harmonica on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:35 pm

Redondo was the last dm to win individual accolades.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Kaladin on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:51 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Redondo was the last dm to win individual accolades.


Not true












Benzema won the golden boot at Lyon (:

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:52 pm

El Shaarawy wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Redondo was the last dm to win individual accolades.


Not true












Benzema won the golden boot at Lyon (:


rofl

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Re: Iniesta

Post by jibers on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:55 pm

El Shaarawy wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Redondo was the last dm to win individual accolades.


Not true












Benzema won the golden boot at Lyon (:

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Hapless_Hans on Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:29 pm

@jibers wrote: He is the best at what he does but saying he is the best dm is just an arbitrary term to me. .


Thanks jibers for some common sense.
It's driving me mad that this forum is obsessed with definitively 'rating' players when there are so many variables are involved.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Cruijf on Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:19 pm

Mole when you say DM what role are you talking about? Because you reference things like how he's shut people down, but then you talk about his performance in the Clasico, where he actually played more as a CM iirc.

He's great on the ball and very intelligent with his passing and movement, but those traits aren't necessarily the most important for every DM. Jibers put it well, that in Pep's system he was the best but in this current system Martinez would be better.

I think you need to clarify what exactly you're praising him for. As a pivote in a possession team I agree he's the best in the world, but to say the best DM so generally I'm not sure.

As for why he's struggling this season, part of it is he's isolated more often, but another part of it is that he's playing much further up the pitch than usual. The amount of times I saw him as the furthest midfielder up the pitch to press in the Spanish Super Cup was shocking. I think Enrique is misusing him tbh, Busquets isn't mobile enough to fulfill this role.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by M99 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:59 pm

El Shaarawy wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Redondo was the last dm to win individual accolades.


Not true












Benzema won the golden boot at Lyon (:


Felllaaaaa

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:15 pm

@Cruijf wrote:Mole when you say DM what role are you talking about? Because you reference things like how he's shut people down, but then you talk about his performance in the Clasico, where he actually played more as a CM iirc.

He's great on the ball and very intelligent with his passing and movement, but those traits aren't necessarily the most important for every DM. Jibers put it well, that in Pep's system he was the best but in this current system Martinez would be better.

I think you need to clarify what exactly you're praising him for. As a pivote in a possession team I agree he's the best in the world, but to say the best DM so generally I'm not sure.

As for why he's struggling this season, part of it is he's isolated more often, but another part of it is that he's playing much further up the pitch than usual. The amount of times I saw him as the furthest midfielder up the pitch to press in the Spanish Super Cup was shocking. I think Enrique is misusing him tbh, Busquets isn't mobile enough to fulfill this role.


Starters the Pep's system thing is about meaningless to me as people who used to say Xavi is a system player and that he would be average in a different system.

It's bullshit to justify a different opinion, also how much has he struggled really? They won away to Bilbao and Atletico and also beat Levante ( ok they drew to Roma but a hit and hope from the half way line hardly equates to him struggling)

This all stems from one performance against Celta *bleep* Vigo which will be completely forgotten about when the season is over as it's completely meaningless.... funny how one games =struggle.

Also a DM to someone who protect a back 4 which Busquets does better than anybody.... please name somebody who does it better because i really can't think of one, Matic? please did you see what Verratti did to him? where as PSG was locked down by Busquets, they couldn't do anything where as Verratti and the rest looked like the second coming of god against Matic and co.

Javi Martinez hasn't done anything since winning the CL due to being out of favour and/or injured so he's not relevant to that discussion although i accept the fact that Jibers might prefer him for a different style.

I just fail to see anyone who regularly shuts down the biggest opposing CM/AM threats as often as he does and the " system " is not only massively BS but also an excuse.

But besides all that if it's down to the system why is it that when he's not there they can hardly get out of their own half and they struggle immensely?

Also if it's down to the system and they are misusing him to get the best out of the front 3, then why is it that he still consistently when it matters locks down the best players in the world while being misused but at the same time having his hand held by the system?

Which one is it? because they both contradict each other and it can't be both.

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Cruijf on Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:37 pm

I'm not saying he's struggling based on just the Celta game, heck I only watched the first half of that game. I'm judging based off the second leg of the spanish super cup, the european super cup, and Barca's first game of the season against Athletic. I thought he was sub par in all of those games, where he did play much higher up the field than he was last season.

Take the UEFA Super Cup for example. Watch (http://livefootballvideo.com/fullmatch/europe/uefa-super-cup/barcelona-vs-sevilla-4) from minute 23. Since when does Busquets abandon his position to press center backs?

And keep in mind he's one of the most disciplined players I've seen. If he's doing that, it's because Enrique wants him to, and he just doesn't have the mobility to play like that. That's what I mean when I say he's being misused.

And I never said he was a 'system player' or that he would only play well in a system like Pep's, I was saying no one else could do his job then as well as he did. In the role Enrique wants, someone like Schweinsteiger or De Jong would be better.

As for this business of no one shutting down AMs or CMs like he does, that's never the result of one man. Busquets isn't a man marker. Since it seems all you care about are the latter stages of the CL, look at Marchisio's performance against Madrid in the semis. Do you really think Busquets could've done that?

You're the one that's said before defending is never about individuals, it's about systems. Busquet does a great job in some systems, but in others, like the current Barca one or Juve's, he's not necessarily the best possible player.

I agree with you on a lot of what you say he's good at tbh, I just don't think that translates to 'best DM in the world.'

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Re: Iniesta

Post by Winter is Coming on Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:31 am

Proud



Couldn't find a video with his full performance of the watch yet, but this will do for now, maybe some else can link one. He bossed it

I'll link this too.

http://www.goallegacy.net/t29560-iniesta-is-massively-overrated-whether-you-like-it-or-not?highlight=Iniesta

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