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Post by sportsczy on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:21 pm

@Myesyats wrote:
@Clutch wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:I have 2 friends who both have dogs named n*gger

Chocolate cake in Poland is called "a little n*gger"
it's probably because Poland is one of the most racist countries in the world??? If not, at least top 5

Not really, no. There's prejudice against Muslims but that's not racism because it's about religion and not race.

Don't believe everything they say in the media.

wat

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Post by Myesyats on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:32 pm

@farfan wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:
@Clutch wrote:
it's probably because Poland is one of the most racist countries in the world??? If not, at least top 5

Not really, no. There's prejudice against Muslims but that's not racism because it's about religion and not race.



Why are these sentiments so prevalent in Poland and other  Eastern bloc countries? No disrespect, but these countries are neither rich enough to attract immigrants nor geopolitically relevant enough to attract terrorist attacks. Muslims should be the least of the worries of people living there. Laughing

idk mostly because of the Islamic State i guess, islamic people from arab countries mainly are associated with violence and inability to fit into a christian society, basically islam = jihad

It's worse in countries like the Czech Republic or Slovakia though, I've been there and theres literally anti-islamic posters on the streets.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:38 pm

@Myesyats wrote:If only I cared about your opinion.


I mean you outwardly said your countrymen call things like dogs etc etc after a term which was used to describe slaves.

Look i fully expect the majority of people are very nice people (hell my own experience says this is the case) but that doesn't mean they aren't ignorant of the terms they are using.

I don't need to listen to the media to know this, it's just a classic case of education to know what is acceptable to use and what isn't.

Hell England was in the same situation, i knew many people or heard stories of people from before i was born who used these terms without fully understanding them.

For the most part Racism is about education and knowing/understanding what you're saying, some countries are just not educated at the same rate but hopefully some day they will be.

Also before you say anything because i sense it coming, i'm not one of those people who is particularly happy about the general sensitivity to a lot of things and the overall political correctness in today's world.

But this in no way is acceptable thing and doesn't fit into the same situation.
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Post by Myesyats on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:09 pm

I've actually encountered them about it because even though we live in a relatively small town where there are virtually no black people and the issue of racism doesn't track with us it's not the right thing to do. But they just laughed it off. Although I do know it comes off that way, these people are in no way prejudiced against any people of color. They're regular university students that do not lack education, it's just that this issue doesn't track with them, if that makes sense.

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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:11 pm

@McLewis wrote:
@farfan wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
He doesn't get to hide behind ignorance. Not in this day and age.  Not with information literally at our finger tips. That's a poor excuse honestly. If I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, I'd say his publicist or whoever in his entourage is in charge of his public image really messed up here by not catching him before he posted this picture.


And in this day and age, your fellow countrymen know even less about Spain and its culture.

Seriously, I know from experience that the average American thinks Spanish = brown mestizo from Latin America. I suspect most of them don't even know what "Spain" actually is. Yet a Spanish guy is supposed to know about the racial history of the US? give me a break. I'm all for educating people on these issues, but the notion that people from other countries should just " know better " is just typical American arrogance.


You should also know that we Americans are not monolithic. Some of us know more about Spain than others. Some of us know less. You'd do well to not paint us with too broad a brush. For my part, I won't presume to know what my compatriots know and don't know. That would indeed be the very arrogance you referred to.

I can only speak to what I know personally. What I can tell you is my knowledge of Spain is derived principally from 2 areas: My love of football (though I don't particularly care for La Liga) and my love of history (specifically Ancient and European history). Spain figures prominently in both for obvious reasons.


I’ll say you are the exception. I find Americans are the most ignorant about other countries than any other country in the world. For instance, I’ve seen Americans in Canada in July with skis! I blame it on their education system. They think it is more important to be able to name every single president than it is to have some world history understanding.

So I find it ironic, when Americans are essentially saying rest of world should have knowledge of USA yet they, in general have little knowledge of rest of world!
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Post by Thimmy on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:19 pm

I'm pretty sure I've heard the term, "Blackface" somewhere before, but I didn't know what it meant until I googled it, just now. I don't think Iniesta is at fault for this, but it seems his PR manager has gotten pretty lax since he moved to Japan hmm

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Post by Doc on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 pm

@Myesyats wrote:
@Clutch wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:I have 2 friends who both have dogs named n*gger

Chocolate cake in Poland is called "a little n*gger"
it's probably because Poland is one of the most racist countries in the world??? If not, at least top 5

Not really, no. There's prejudice against Muslims but that's not racism because it's about religion and not race.

Don't believe everything they say in the media.

Sure but that's discrimination which is just as bad. Also, why folks of Muslim faith? Also also, why would one name a dog "n*****"?

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

@McLewis wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@McLewis wrote:Given the historical treatment of blacks by the Spanish, I'd say the outrage is warranted. This was not a good look for Iniesta. He should've known better.


Seriously?

Dude, it's the three wise men from the orient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi

People should pick their battles better.
Because the way this is going, the important ones won't be fought or won.

I consider a person who is not of African-descent painting their face to look like one to be offensive. That's my point on this topic. I'm not here to pick battles . I don't even see this as a battle. Just to stating my opinion.

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@McLewis wrote:Given the historical treatment of blacks by the Spanish, I'd say the outrage is warranted. This was not a good look for Iniesta. He should've known better.
And how should he know better? This is not an issue in Spain, it's not part of the conversation, he was never educated that doing this is wrong as people in the US are. On top of that, most professional players receive a terrible education fit only for the bare minimum requirements while they focus most of their energies on training. I wouldn't expect many of them to be exposed to what blackface is or be aware of it.

He doesn't get to hide behind ignorance. Not in this day and age. Not with information literally at our finger tips. That's a poor excuse honestly. If I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, I'd say his publicist or whoever in his entourage is in charge of his public image really messed up here by not catching him before he posted this picture.

It seems that this thread is getting bit out of hand, so I'll just make my closing arguments



-I'm not sure what "in this day and age" means. Does it mean that the information is so readily available he should know about it? I don't see how, in order to search for things like blackface you must first be introduced to it as an issue



-We don't know the context of the picture. It may be that it was originally meant for private distribution, not public, in which case I don't see why anyone would stop I completely agree that a social media manager/publicist should've caught this, as Iniesta has a worldwide reach and not just a Spanish one, so this was entirely predictable and avoidable.



-It's entirely believable that Iniesta (or any other Spanish person with little exposure to American media) never thought to double check whether this was offensive or not. I completely agree that if you were to stop and think about the for 5 seconds you would probably reach the conclusion "you know what, if I were black I don't think I would like this", but in order to get to that stage you need to first suspect it may be offensive. I don't think a normal Spanish person would first get there because this is not meant with any offense. In fact, as one of the 3 magi that brings gifts to little children, we could call this a positive association. It's kind of like a Spanish' conception of Santa, with all the positive and innocent associations that has.



Anyways in summary I don't think we should be holding Iniesta morally responsible for this "failure". Nor do I think people should be judging people from different cultures by their own culture's standards, especially when there was no intent to harm or offend. That being said, I would totally get why someone would feel legitimately offended by this if he is black, and I think whoever is in charge of Iniesta's social media management should have recognized this and prevented it as Iniesta’s posts have a global reach.

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Post by McLewis on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:27 am

@futbol_bill wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
@farfan wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
He doesn't get to hide behind ignorance. Not in this day and age.  Not with information literally at our finger tips. That's a poor excuse honestly. If I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, I'd say his publicist or whoever in his entourage is in charge of his public image really messed up here by not catching him before he posted this picture.




And in this day and age, your fellow countrymen know even less about Spain and its culture.

Seriously, I know from experience that the average American thinks Spanish = brown mestizo from Latin America. I suspect most of them don't even know what "Spain" actually is. Yet a Spanish guy is supposed to know about the racial history of the US? give me a break. I'm all for educating people on these issues, but the notion that people from other countries should just " know better " is just typical American arrogance.


You should also know that we Americans are not monolithic. Some of us know more about Spain than others. Some of us know less. You'd do well to not paint us with too broad a brush. For my part, I won't presume to know what my compatriots know and don't know. That would indeed be the very arrogance you referred to.

I can only speak to what I know personally. What I can tell you is my knowledge of Spain is derived principally from 2 areas: My love of football (though I don't particularly care for La Liga) and my love of history (specifically Ancient and European history). Spain figures prominently in both for obvious reasons.


I’ll say you are the exception. I find Americans are the most ignorant about other countries than any other country in the world. For instance, I’ve seen Americans in Canada in July with skis! I blame it on their education system. They think it is more important to be able to name every single president than it is to have some world history understanding.

So I find it ironic, when Americans are essentially saying rest of world should have knowledge of USA yet they, in general have little knowledge of rest of world!


It is indeed ironic. I can certainly agree with that. Everytime I hear a story of one of my dumbass compatriots going abroad and acting a fool, I cringe and I facepalm. It's frustrating that these idiots are projected to represent my country abroad. I don't blame the reaction to such ignorance however. The folks I know that travel abroad are very respectful of the local cultures they encounter and they try their best to learn, understand and participate in those languages and cultures while among them. That's what I strive to do myself when I travel as well. It's the whole "When in Rome" saying at work. I have not had the chance to travel to Spain, but please believe that if I ever do, it will be after learning some Spanish, research customs and being read to immerse myself in the culture. I am not particularly religious, but Santiago de Compostela is one of my top destinations in Spain that I would like to visit. I find the stories of St. James' time in Spain to be historically fascinating.

As far as Iniesta goes, I don't believe him to be racist. Never have. He's a good dude, by all accounts. I do believe he needs to be educated on why this is considered offensive though. That's the one good thing that should come out of this. If he didn't know before, he sure should now. He is not just a Spanish star, he is a global star. He has fans everywhere, including in African-American communities here in the US. He (or at least his PR team) has a responsibility to consider this when deciding to make posts like this. Is it fair? That's subjective, but this is why it pays to have a good PR team. Threading the needle on issues like this is exactly what they're paid to do. It is both a cultural and financial price of being globally famous. I don't envy him personally.
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Post by Clutch on Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:35 am

So the issue I have here is not really Iniesta posting this picture. He posted it and it was bad move, whatever, he apologized we can move on. But theres this reaction of people who are mad that he apologized to people he accidentally offended??? This is what I'm confused about. Just because he allegedly didnt know the context of his post doesn't absolve him from saying an apology Laughing. If I offended a culture or someone unknowingly, I'd apologize to the person whom is offended and move on. I wouldn't say, "Well I didnt know about it or ever learn it, so no I'm NOT going to apologize to you or your culture or whatever I offended." I didnt know feeling a bit of empathy was considered being politically correct. Yes some people will try and spin this story but at the end of the day Iniesta did the right/most common thing a normal human would do.

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Post by rincon on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:36 am

It's because his Twitter didn't read:

"hey man, I know you are from a different continent and culture, but us over here in north America have this thing called blackface and a ugly history with it. So in our experience, we find it offensive when a white guy paints his face black"

It read all sorts of creative ways people had of calling him racist.

Causes opposite reactions.
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Post by zigra on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:08 am

I can understand being annoyed by idiots and assholes on Twitter BUT they are not really a reason why he shouldn't apologize to people he (accidentally) offended.

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Post by Clutch on Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:41 pm

@rincon wrote:It's because his Twitter didn't read:

"hey man, I know you are from a different continent and culture, but us over here in north America have this thing called blackface and a ugly history with it. So in our experience, we find it offensive when a white guy paints his face black"

It read all sorts of creative ways people had of calling him racist.

Causes opposite reactions.
yea but you cant control that. Theres always going to be people like that,who ruin everything because they're not happy with themselves. People do this all the time on social media and I just mentally block them because it's so mentally draining now a days since its everywhere on every single issue lol

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Post by rincon on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:12 pm

I agree, I'm just commenting on what I think creates a strong, opposite, reaction.
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Post by futbol on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:25 pm

There is a huge difference between someone painting his face black to mock black people with stupid mimics and Griezmann painting himself black in an 80s party to dress up as a black basketball player whom he admires. Surely people are intelligent enough to distinguish between the two ... Surely ...

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Post by Thimmy on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:45 pm

Clutch already answered your presumably rhetorical question, Futbol. Clearly, being offended and making a big deal out of every little thing, is not only the best form of therapy, but also the solution to all issues Molenation

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Post by Myesyats on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:51 pm

@Thimmy wrote:Clutch already answered your presumably rhetorical question, Futbol. Clearly, being offended and making a big deal out of every little thing, is not only the best form of therapy, but also the solution to all issues Molenation

Laughing

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Post by The Demon of Carthage on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:19 pm

Not every single person in this world knows about blackface and the derogatory history that stems from it. I can understand the offense when it's done by someone who knows about it and specifically wears the make-up to mock black people. In that case, the offense is warranted and whoever feels like getting offended can very well be offended.

However, Iniesta and his entourage were simply celebrating a Christian holiday in costumes as the Three Wise Men and their pages. It had absolutely nothing to do with what people are getting at and therefore, in my humble opinion, he had no reason to apologize. It's all about context.

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Post by Doc on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:22 pm

@Thimmy wrote:Clutch already answered your presumably rhetorical question, Futbol. Clearly, being offended and making a big deal out of every little thing, is not only the best form of therapy, but also the solution to all issues Molenation

He never said that lol

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Post by Thimmy on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:28 pm

@Doc wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:Clutch already answered your presumably rhetorical question, Futbol. Clearly, being offended and making a big deal out of every little thing, is not only the best form of therapy, but also the solution to all issues Molenation

He never said that lol


But he definitely intended to, and that makes him guilty! banana

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Post by sportsczy on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:42 pm

The age of inane political correctness.

There was absolutely no intent. Does the term "cultural relativism" no longer exist? Look it up.

If people are offended by what Iniesta did, get some tissue and cry yourself a river if that makes you feel better. But leave the man alone.

Completely ridiculous.

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Post by M99 on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:53 pm

Say a global Japanese superstar posted a pic and his friend beside him have the Nazi insignia and SS on their shirts. He had no intent, Nazism and anti-semitism is a non-factor in Japan, they don't know how Europeans and the rest of the world have problems with Nazi imagery. It does not absolve the Japanese person for apologizing to his many fans around the globe does it?

Its like Clutch said, the reason this discussion is going multiple pages because certain people are offended that Iniesta had to apologize. For the record, you can dress up as the Three Wisemen without the need to paint your face black.

Iniesta is a class act, and he unknowingly may have offended some people but being the class act he is, he apologized. Get over it. Or as sports said get some tissue and cry yourself a river (take your own advice mate).

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Post by Doc on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:03 pm

@Thimmy wrote:But he definitely intended to, and that makes him guilty! banana

That would have been the case if not for his actual post:
@Clutch wrote:So the issue I have here is not really Iniesta posting this picture. He posted it and it was bad move, whatever, he apologized we can move on. But there's this reaction of people who are mad that he apologized to people he accidentally offended??? This is what I'm confused about. Just because he allegedly didn't know the context of his post doesn't absolve him from saying an apology Laughing. If I offended a culture or someone unknowingly, I'd apologize to the person whom is offended and move on. I wouldn't say, "Well I didn't know about it or ever learn it, so no I'm NOT going to apologize to you or your culture or whatever I offended." I didn't know feeling a bit of empathy was considered being politically correct. Yes some people will try and spin this story but at the end of the day Iniesta did the right/most common thing a normal human would do.

I guess I don't see the SJWism in his post because this mirrors my own thoughts on this so I suppose it's bias talking. To me, Ini apologised and that's that. Why folks are upset he apologised for an accidental offense is beyond my own thoughts tbh.

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Post by Thimmy on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:09 pm

@Clutch wrote:
@rincon wrote:It's because his Twitter didn't read:

"hey man, I know you are from a different continent and culture, but us over here in north America have this thing called blackface and a ugly history with it. So in our experience, we find it offensive when a white guy paints his face black"

It read all sorts of creative ways people had of calling him racist.

Causes opposite reactions.
yea but you cant control that. Theres always going to be people like that,who ruin everything because they're not happy with themselves. People do this all the time on social media and I just mentally block them because it's so mentally draining now a days since its everywhere on every single issue lol


I was referring to this post. I haven't read a fraction of the other posts in this thread. The thought police remark I made was a joke.
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Post by McLewis on Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:37 am

Here's my bottom line on this topic and then I'm going to shut up about it -

Spray painting your face to resemble a different race is offensive to me, full stop. I could care less who is doing it, what race they are and for what reason or intent. It will very likely never be otherwise. That's not me "crying" about it. That's not me looking for something to be offended about. That's not me playing the victim card or the race card. That's me saying this was not well thought out and that I hope Iniesta has learned a lesson from it. I don't bear anyone in that pic any ill will nor do I bear that towards any of you who don't appear to understand just how bad this really is. I just hope you all take a few minutes to educate yourselves on why this touched a nerve with so many people, myself included. Maybe you'll come out of it thinking differently, maybe you won't. That's not for me to say or judge otherwise. Just as long as you try.
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Post by Thimmy on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:45 am

That’s understandable, Mclewis. What I have an issue with, personally, are the people on social media who milk things like this for what it’s worth. People are willing to go to great lengths to make something go viral. It may not have been the right thing to do, but I don’t believe there was any intentional racism here, yet a lot of people seem to want to create as much hysteria out of it as possible. Like someone already mentioned, he’s apologized, I’m sure he’s learnt from it, let’s move on. That’s the most rational thing to do, the way I see it. I don’t know what people expect him to do, now that he’s already apologized. The reaction on social media would make more sense if this was a repeated offense.
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