Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by CBarca on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:35 pm

I don't think anyone will deny he had talent but it's something else to claim someone was a generational talent when we never got to see what he was to turn into if he was injury free

Even in his early days he was a great footballer but you never know how that turns out.

It's like claiming right now that Pulisic is a generational talent. He's damn good. He looks like he very well could be. But if he started getting chronically injured from this point on (pls God no oh god no), then I don't think I could look back and say with any certainty I think he was a generational talent.

He was a great talent though, no denying that. Injuries ruined him more than most because of his reliance on pace. Similar to Kaka tbh

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:36 pm

If you want to go there, i'll use Owen as an example. He had just as many niggling injuries as Pato if not more.

But instead of disappearing of the face of the planet like Pato he adapted his game and remained effective for many years.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by CBarca on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:37 pm

^ and my previous post is why on the injuries debate I flip sides and call BS on mole and Firenze

Pato wasn't just injured, he was chronically injured and for a guy that relied on pace so much, it was too much for him. He still had some good seasons on what was a Milan team that challenged for Serie A and competed in the CL

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Doc on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:38 pm

Really lost it with the French Olive farmers.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Luca on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:40 pm

Its as much mental as it is physical

Look at Adriano, all the talent in the world, lost his head. It happens
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Kaladin on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:40 pm

You can find an example of anything and everything

Jovetic. Same thing as Pato, niggling injuries throughout, scored 15+ goals regularly, got a nasty injury in his last season at Fio then poof


Last edited by Kaladin on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:42 pm

@CBarca wrote:^ and my previous post is why on the injuries debate I flip sides and call BS on mole and Firenze

Pato wasn't just injured, he was chronically injured and for a guy that relied on pace so much, it was too much for him. He still had some good seasons on what was a Milan team that challenged for Serie A and competed in the CL
@CBarca wrote:^ and my previous post is why on the injuries debate I flip sides and call BS on mole and Firenze

Pato wasn't just injured, he was chronically injured and for a guy that relied on pace so much, it was too much for him. He still had some good seasons on what was a Milan team that challenged for Serie A and competed in the CL


So was Owen, you are obviously too young to remember but believe me when i say this he had had every bit the injury raddled career that Pato did.

It's incredibly rare for injuries to flat out turn a player into a scrub, if you are great you can usually come back to perform to a better standard than Pato did.

Just think of all the injury plagued greats from Robben to Ronaldo and so on, they weren't who they were after loads of injuries but they never dropped off THAT much it just limited from becoming even greater.

I genuinely can't think of a great player who went to shit so soon because of injuries like Pato, the ones who eventually went to shit did so a lot later on when age was a bigger factor than just injuries.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by CBarca on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:45 pm

It's what ES said

Injuries affect different players differently. The injuries THEMSELVES are very different. You might have two different players tear an ACL but those two tears could be very different.

Who saw Cazorla's injury happening as it did. Lamela? He was to be out for like a month, 2 months. He's been out for 13 months now, finally back in training. He saw a psychiatrist iirc

It's mental, and every injury is different.  Especially when it's as chronic as Pato.

It wasn't "so soon" either. You're forgetting he played at a CL team level for five seasons throughout all this. He's shit relatively early because he broke through at 17. Imagine having so many injuries and the stress on your body he did at such a young age.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Kaladin on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:51 pm

Lamela is a great example

He was displaying some great stuff at Rome

Sad that this happened to him

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:53 pm

Again you are bringing up people like Cazorla who was 30 when his injury happened.

I'm not saying players who get injured always recover, i'm saying players who are great and young don't just suddenly go to shit.

Pato is literally the only example of it, the other examples are usually a lot older and suffer due to a combination of age and injuries working against them at the same time.

It's why i state Pato's performances were massively to do with him being young and defences hadn't adapted to him yet, it's also why i'm loath to hype up kids like you were all doing with Mbappe because the first year or so is often when young players shine.

The true show of greatness is what you do when entire defensive gameplans is built to stop you, which never happened with Pato because of injuries but also because that Pato IMO for all the reasons stated was never going to be the Pato we see for all of his career even if he never got injured.

Seriously i can't think of a single great player who got injured early on and never came back to be great, it like never actually happens.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Luca on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:03 pm

Giuseppe Rossi, not sure if he counts but he was absolutely ruined by injury but for the most part I do agree with Mole, that's why I said its mental as much as it is physical. Its a big mental thing to overcome injury and come back at a high level. Balotelli is another one who is plagued by physical injury and mental deficiency, in quite possibly the strongest combination of both in terms of what its done to his talent. Cassano, Adriano, suffered mentally for sure.

I don't really like the whole, defences haven't adapted yet. I find it nonsensical. Good players find a way, great teams make it happen. Robben made a career from cutting inside. Messi is the most impactful player ever and always somehow finds space on the field and its been this way forever. Its chess, not checkers.
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:05 pm

Not trying to defend Martial, but Mourinho's system isn't exactly best-suited for a player of his profile to learn and blossom into an established player. He might've been better had he been developing under the guidance of a less toxic and more nurturing manager.

However, I'll see this, and I really hope I won't be offending anyone with what I'm about to say. The current crop of French players, and even though some of them are very talented, they still have many others that aren't as good as people claim them to be. One nutmeg and they become the next *insert a legendary name here*.

Again, I'm not denying the fact that France has many talented players right now. What I'm trying to say is that people tend to portray some of them as demigods (especially when they sign for their favorite clubs) even though they still haven't done anything to earn those claims or justify their transfer fees.

Maybe the reason decent players are now being hyped up to the moon is because we're going through the worst drought of generational talent in years.

I'm still waiting to see the next R9 because the latter left a massive void that none of his successors could fill. Same goes for Ronaldinho or Maldini or any of the other legendary players who blessed us with their presence and talent for so many, many years.

Messi and CR are the only reason this generation is still "pleasant" to look at. Those two have succeeded in distracting the world from noticing the huge void and serious drop in quality football has been suffering from even since those legends hung up their boots.

Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but a guy like Benzema wouldn't even be a ballboy in R9's era, and the same goes for many names that are currently being hyped up and thought to be the next football God.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Firenze on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:10 pm

Lamela a great example my sides rofl He's played at a high lvl for all of 5 games in his career and 3 of those were in pre-season and it remains to be seen  if he'll still be bang average when he returns.

Giuseppe Rossi is a good shout though, now that's a player that can't go a season without getting injured, he's had it far worse than Pato ever did.

But like I said, Pato has been fit and injury free for like 3-4 years at this point and he's as average as they come. Absolutely nothing remarkable about his game now he's lost his blistering pace. Generational players aren't that limited.
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:14 pm

Mental cases definitely happen.

Also why do you find it nonsensical? pay attention to how defences work, they are almost incredibly slow to adapt to a new player.

It happens all the time in the PL, it usually takes at least a season for teams to adapt to an upcoming player or team. Which is why until Madrid did it nobody retained the CL.

I feel like people severely underestimated this in football, like everybody assumed because Bayern looked dominant under Heynckes they assumed it would happen next season and every season after that.

The length of time it takes clubs on mass to adapt to a player and team is severely underrated, it's why the whole one season wonder mantra exists.

Also the other players being mentioned like Rossi and Lamela just weren't that great IMO and i'm even more confident in saying that than i am with Pato.

Not that they aren't good but they never what Pato was hyped to be, especially Lamela who in the PL didn't even look that great pre-injury.

Like i said i literally can't think of a single great player who got injured early on who didn't come back to be at least good, it never happens all the ones being mentioned are incredibly questionable due to the amount of time they actually played pre-injury.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Luca on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:26 pm

I just find one season wonder type players aren't typically great players, form is temporary after all. That's what comes through, class versus form. Teams that play one way will be found out but great players will be great.

How can we rectify that with Spain 2008-2012, Robben's career, Messi, Ronaldo, DMZema eating up every ball in the midfield for the last 8 seasons?

One season wonders like Michu, Krasic, and all the others, to me, they're just players who found themselves in the right place at the right time and all of the seasons after was just the game correcting itself, that I'll always buy so if that's what you mean, then I'm with you. Maybe it's just the phrasing of "the defence just hasn't adapted yet", that always sits the wrong way with me.

Improvise
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:43 pm

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome fits perfectly in how i feel tbh.


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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:13 pm

I haven't read the whole thread so I might be misinterpreting. If the argument is that Pato only beasted because defenses didn't adapt to him, then that's just wrong. Pato was NOT a half-season or 1 season wonder.

When he arrived, right away he played 18 games in Serie A. Milan was a very good team and he still found the space at just like 18 years old. He played 18 games and was fantastic. Then the next season he played 36 games and was great again. That's way more than enough time for defenses to adapt. He kept doing it though even when he got wrecked by the first round of injnuries. He played again 23 games in his third season, and 25 games in the fourth. Always great when fit. In his fourth season he would get injured then rush back, plays amazingly for a couple of games, then get injured again.

You can't play 100 games in Serie A at a top level (did it in CL too) and blame on the other teams not adapting. He was an incredible talent and already a great performer at that time. The injuries just destroyed him physically and probably mentally too.
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:38 pm

Reading the thread now,
@CBarca wrote:Every kid who makes it big at 17 is a generational talent according to people here.

I bet RG still calls Wilshere a generational talent.

I'm not saying injuries didn't ruin Pato's career, but let's not pretend to know how his career would have gone. The fact of the matter is I don't know if he ever broke 20 goals in a season, and he never played at an elite level. He was a great talent but personally I don't see where he's any better than Martial.

I think once Mou is gone or Martial moves a lot of people are going to be regretting their words the

I'm 100% agreed with Firenze here


I get the feeling from this post you never watched Pato when he broke through and only watched after years of injuries when he disappeared. He wasn't "every kid who makes it big at 17", for the matter how many kids make it big at 17? Then how many kids as big as Pato did? the answer for the second is pretty much none. He was an absurd talent and he most definitely played at an elite level.

Where he is better than Martial? at everything. Doesn't even compare. Martial is a good talent that is being misused, Pato was something else.

No doubt one of the best talents in football I've seen wasted.
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by CBarca on Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:23 pm

Nah I can backtrack. I did watch Pato early on but not much as I don't waste my time with Serie Zzzz, but you're right, I think Pato was probably a better talent than Martial, I downplayed Pato a bit there, but I don't think the difference is tremendous. At about the same age as Pato, Martial was leading all Monaco goalscorers to get them into a CL place in Ligue 1. Not an insane tally, but that young, 12 goals is respectable, it's really similar to Pato's numbers.

Next season he goes to United under a negative manager and an average team, scores 11 in the league and 17 in all competitions for one of the biggest clubs in the world with a huge fee attached to his name. He lead all goalscorers for the team again.

Pato had many unfortunate injuries. Right now, Martial is unfortunate United bought Zlatan underneath a manager known to ignore youth, not really nurture youth either, and is good friends with Zlatan. He was sacrificed out wide and made to play a defensive wing role. I think the only reason we aren't seeing more great things from Martial right now is because of Mourinho. People can continue to underrate him if they want, but he's a helluva player. I feel really bad for him.

Kids make it big at 17, 18--Martial, Krcic, Owen, Dele, Wilshere, Balotelli, Pulisic -- Some of these we know aren't generational (Krcic was a flop, Wilshere isn't, Balotelli isn't). Owen we can probably say made it. Martial, and Dele we'll have to see, I think they have potential but I'm not sure I see it. Pulisic I won't comment on, I'm biased. He's generational to me partially because of his country, we will see if he can fulfill that talent though. Unfortunately, like Wilshere, Pato's injuries prevented him from ever being a generational talent. If you keep reading the thread, you will see I do defend Pato's injury record as a very legitimate reason he wasn't able to follow up on his talent.

You could argue semantics about being a generational talent, but to me you have to follow it up with an illustrious career. Some people might call Balo a generational talent. I don't. And unfortunately if you're chronically injured and that keeps you from fulfilling talent, to me you are not generational. Pato is in China now. It's unfortunate for Pato but that's how I see it.

I don't hold anything against Alexandre, I just can't agree with what was said when you look at his career as a whole. It's not his fault, it just is.

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by M99 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:38 pm


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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by rincon on Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:10 am

Lets get back on topic.

Who is gonna rescue Martial from United? Inter? Bayern?
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Robespierre on Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:21 am

Mhmhm Pato was really a generation player on paper. He had every sign for it and he showed him too.
He destroyed us on Scudetto derby 2011 ffs we are on a level beyond frauds as Jovetic Lamela etc

Anyway what is the problem about Martial ?
4 gol in 9 matches , he is playing and scoring
Where is Mourinho wrong or where is Martial underperforming I mean...
Frankly he looks like improved compared last year.
I like him much.
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Glory on Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:09 am

@rincon wrote:Lets get back on topic.

Who is gonna rescue Martial from United? Inter? Bayern?



Who is gonna rescue Martial from Mourinho? Inter? Bayern?
Fixed.

Everyone know what is holding back Martial right now.
In a different system under a different manager, the guy could flourish into something special truly.

Even last season when he was going through a torrid time in his personal life and also being pushed around by Jose, he still showed glimpses. This season, he is looking fresher and hungrier. But still the way he is treated at the club like a part time player, behind dross like Mkhitaryan and Mata, he is just not getting there. I mean its sad to see really.

Also, the myth Martial has shit attitude is also not true. Granted he doesnt have the personality of a Mbappe or a Rashford. Still the lad is a thorough professional who just happens to be a bit shy. But that doesnt mean you have to babysit him or anything. You just have to do that a little push and make him feel important which unfortunately Mourinho is failing to do.

I totally agree with the sentiment provided Mou is not going anywhere in 1-2 years time Martial SIMPLY HAS to find another club. Under a Jardim or even Pep, the guy will look like a different beast.
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Vlad the Impaler on Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:25 am

@Kaladin wrote:Talent half as good as Martial?

https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/17/64/32/82/donna10.png

Our talents are better than the best players in your club you deluded cuck rofl

PL XI wouldn't even finish top 10 in Serie A lmao

tfw a Serie A certified manager walks the PL Molenation

tfw PL hasn't done anything relevant in CL since 2012 Molenation

tfw your best player was made in Serie A

Dont ever @ me again, and keep disable the push notifications on Huddersfield next time


But are you aware that those stats mean absolutely nothing if you want to compare De Gea with Donnarumma? GK's from smaller teams tend to have more saves because their teams concede more shots on target. Anyway, Donnarumma is great, he'll probably end up at Juve. Smile
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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by nasir6371 on Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:41 pm

Neither Pato or Martial are a Generational talents. How can a generational talent with over 180 senior team matches still be a bench player?? A soon to be 22 yo (in Dec) Generational Talent can't cement a starting place in a 2 forward system rofl rofl

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Re: Anthony Martial AKA New Henry, GOD of men, Maker of the ring of pace and Martin Tyler's Son

Post by Kaladin on Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:10 pm

@Vlad the Impaler wrote:
@Kaladin wrote:Talent half as good as Martial?

https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/17/64/32/82/donna10.png

Our talents are better than the best players in your club you deluded cuck rofl

PL XI wouldn't even finish top 10 in Serie A lmao

tfw a Serie A certified manager walks the PL Molenation

tfw PL hasn't done anything relevant in CL since 2012 Molenation

tfw your best player was made in Serie A

Dont ever @ me again, and keep disable the push notifications on Huddersfield next time


But are you aware that those stats mean absolutely nothing if you want to compare De Gea with Donnarumma? GK's from smaller teams tend to have more saves because their teams concede more shots on target. Anyway, Donnarumma is great, he'll probably end up at Juve. Smile


By that logic, Donnarumma>De Gea since 'small teams' face more shots, yet he has less goals conceded than De Gea, where he is in a 'big team' and faces 'big shots'/'more shots' or whatever you wanna call it

United fans flee and hide in their crevices everytime i bring Donna v DDG debate, my lad is doing at 17, what your lad is doing at 27, this is DDG's peak mate, no wonder Madrid avoided him lol and opted for Kiko effing Casilla Laughing

Another product of United's hype team, was DDG ever as good as he was touted? Among the world's best? (Not that Donna is, before Mehlotrance jumps the gun here).

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