Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
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Hapless_Hans
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Simeone sounds like a great choice!
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
I think Simeone would be the logical choice, simply due to similarity with him and Jose.
If we wanted to get back to winning ways, have a manager long term and don't care about how we play, he'd be my choice all day long.
But if we wanted something different than Jose, obviously someone else should be chosen.
If we wanted to get back to winning ways, have a manager long term and don't care about how we play, he'd be my choice all day long.
But if we wanted something different than Jose, obviously someone else should be chosen.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Isn't he a bit more attack minded than Jose though?
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Not sure, Jose looked attack minded at Madrid, at times.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
It's still extremely early in the season, like, only october, only 10 games played so far, so it was to be expected to not sack Mourinho.
However I don't think that his guidance is the ideal for the Chelsea future, actually far from it. At the very best we'll improve result-wise and manage to scrape narrow and unconvincing wins like we did for most of the second half last season, especially after crashing out of CL and winning the COC. I believe that's the best we can improve, the deeper problems will remain unaddressed and thus we'll fall again in a similar crisis.
I mean, before blaming Mourinho's tactics and players underperforming, I think the main reason why we're in this situation is that Mou has failed to motivate the players nowhere near to what is required.
I mean, just compare it with last year, I don't think the players have shown one third of the passion, the fight, the strive, the will that you'd normally expect from a Mourinho team and which in fact we showed in the first half of last season.
The third year syndrome is none else that him failing/not willing to motivate the same group of players after the initial success pretty much the entirety of his career and once you take motivation out of the window from a man management and psychology specialist like Mou, you take away what? 70%/80% of his benefits, of what he's actually bringing to the table.
And honestly, I don't know why precisely that happens with Mourinho, but I guess it's just natural that once you're at the top you just expect to stay there, whereas that's really the hardest part, or at least twice as hard, thus you crumble. I mean, that's the reason the roman empire has fallen.
That's also the reason why my ex gf broke up with me, in the first months I really put a lot of effort and a lot of myself in our relationship and just put her at the center of my universe and towards the end, I mean, I still loved her, but meh, I guess I got complacent and felt like she just belonged to me and that I didn't have to do anything special or anything at all. Or maybe the honeymoon period was over/she was an attention whore. Whatever. You get my point.
I mean the most worrisome thing about this situation is how Mou has been handling it. He's being not rational, delusional, borderline dissociated from reality. I mean what he says to the press, how he places the blame on the referees/players and never to himself and how he's just so keen to hold to his tactics beliefs no matter what. We always have the same approach to the opponents, to football, we always play with the same back 4, the same Matic Cesc midfield duo, the same attack, the same playstyle no matter how all of it has been sub par for almost a year.
I just don't see any brightness towards where we're headed right now. Obviously I hope to be proven wrong but I'm not that optimistic.
However I don't think that his guidance is the ideal for the Chelsea future, actually far from it. At the very best we'll improve result-wise and manage to scrape narrow and unconvincing wins like we did for most of the second half last season, especially after crashing out of CL and winning the COC. I believe that's the best we can improve, the deeper problems will remain unaddressed and thus we'll fall again in a similar crisis.
I mean, before blaming Mourinho's tactics and players underperforming, I think the main reason why we're in this situation is that Mou has failed to motivate the players nowhere near to what is required.
I mean, just compare it with last year, I don't think the players have shown one third of the passion, the fight, the strive, the will that you'd normally expect from a Mourinho team and which in fact we showed in the first half of last season.
The third year syndrome is none else that him failing/not willing to motivate the same group of players after the initial success pretty much the entirety of his career and once you take motivation out of the window from a man management and psychology specialist like Mou, you take away what? 70%/80% of his benefits, of what he's actually bringing to the table.
And honestly, I don't know why precisely that happens with Mourinho, but I guess it's just natural that once you're at the top you just expect to stay there, whereas that's really the hardest part, or at least twice as hard, thus you crumble. I mean, that's the reason the roman empire has fallen.
That's also the reason why my ex gf broke up with me, in the first months I really put a lot of effort and a lot of myself in our relationship and just put her at the center of my universe and towards the end, I mean, I still loved her, but meh, I guess I got complacent and felt like she just belonged to me and that I didn't have to do anything special or anything at all. Or maybe the honeymoon period was over/she was an attention whore. Whatever. You get my point.
I mean the most worrisome thing about this situation is how Mou has been handling it. He's being not rational, delusional, borderline dissociated from reality. I mean what he says to the press, how he places the blame on the referees/players and never to himself and how he's just so keen to hold to his tactics beliefs no matter what. We always have the same approach to the opponents, to football, we always play with the same back 4, the same Matic Cesc midfield duo, the same attack, the same playstyle no matter how all of it has been sub par for almost a year.
I just don't see any brightness towards where we're headed right now. Obviously I hope to be proven wrong but I'm not that optimistic.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
it all starts up there in the mind; football as with any other performance craft or sport is more than 70% mental and the rest is carried by this; a foregone result.
So when those users / fans say that mourinho (or insert any other manager's name) is just a manager who knows how to motivate players by working on their psych nothing more; well guess what? that is all what matters. The rest is a self fulfilling prophecy. Those who have a strong psych will eventually work on becoming better to achieve better results..etc.
Tactics? They are important, but any tactic you draft will crumble against a well organized tactically sound team.
Why else do you think I would say that the Purpose of the Manager is to intervene only when the team is not ticking properly? Whenever a team is playing well, the manager should just stand aside and lurk in the shadows, allowing the players to do the work. Let them do their job. If they are riding the tide and they appear to be in a state where everything they do ends up right, well just leave them be. Dont worry about Wenger or Pelli, or other Leagues and whether they are better than the BPL or not.
When the team is ticking right, a manager's main job shrinks to observing his players' strong and weak points and try to motivate them to improve every day and maintain that level of enthusiasm and efficiency.
For example, How good can HAZARD (insert name) be today then he was yesterday? Will use Hazard as an example.
Well as a starter, he needs to lose weight. He is relatively overweight and there is room for improvement in this department. Maybe his BMI is okay but the ratio of his Body Fat to Muscles is not up to the standards. HAZARD is going through a similar spell that Messi had gone through early last season where he had to stop loading on the carbs and he eventually lost what I believe was around 7 to 10lbs of body fat. This increased his speed by a notch; it could be a few milli or micro seconds which made him lethal again.
Hazard needs to undergo a fitness program that could improve on his stamina. Do more sprint exercises cause his dribbling is perfect but he needs to improve his initial burst when dribbling to carry him further for a couple of seconds more where he could smoke the opponents.
Hazard needs to improve his shooting skills. It's obvious that he uses strength in his shots yet he lacks the strength to guide them. He doesnt execute curvy balls like Willian for example. He has to choose what he does best and work on that; more curves / less strength vs less curvy balls with more power.
Every player has a different profile and has to work on reaching the peak of his top skills and improving on the other aspects of the game.
This is what the manager should be spending time on. Rather than only telling the players to foul an opponent or mark X or Y.
What is Mourinho doing in regards to all this? Probably nothing. He's subbing Matic and Hazard, playing Oscar then Ramires. He is pursuing Stone for the 10th time (is it really a coincidence that the defense is suffering ever since the Stones saga begun?)
The core should focus on improving the players by improving their skills and confidence. When the formula is working, you step down as a manager and watch and analyze and be critical constructively but let the players do the work and when they are not ticking then you step in and intervene with tactics and change of plans and tinkering with the formations.
This is what Mourinho is refusing to acknowledge. He doesnt like the fact that the game is not about him but about the 11 players he fields. If he acknowledges this simple stupid fact and calm down and stop acting like a special one when it is not time to act special then he will eventually reap the rewards of the success that his players achieve and become the special one again. It's a win-win situation where you stop focusing on the goal (becoming the special one) and focus on the process (let the team do the heavy lift and stop your fights with other leagues and managers and players) and the goal is yours anyway.
At this point, any decent manager will achieve better results with Chelsea than Mouriho because Chelsea is suffering from the lack of basic things. You cant drop from being the top of the league to the bottom except if there is something wrong with the core.
Obviously other teams have improved a lot this season, like I warned they would before the start of the season. Unfortunately, neither the fans over here nor Mourinho saw this coming until it became too transparent and by too transparent I mean too late.
So when those users / fans say that mourinho (or insert any other manager's name) is just a manager who knows how to motivate players by working on their psych nothing more; well guess what? that is all what matters. The rest is a self fulfilling prophecy. Those who have a strong psych will eventually work on becoming better to achieve better results..etc.
Tactics? They are important, but any tactic you draft will crumble against a well organized tactically sound team.
Why else do you think I would say that the Purpose of the Manager is to intervene only when the team is not ticking properly? Whenever a team is playing well, the manager should just stand aside and lurk in the shadows, allowing the players to do the work. Let them do their job. If they are riding the tide and they appear to be in a state where everything they do ends up right, well just leave them be. Dont worry about Wenger or Pelli, or other Leagues and whether they are better than the BPL or not.
When the team is ticking right, a manager's main job shrinks to observing his players' strong and weak points and try to motivate them to improve every day and maintain that level of enthusiasm and efficiency.
For example, How good can HAZARD (insert name) be today then he was yesterday? Will use Hazard as an example.
Well as a starter, he needs to lose weight. He is relatively overweight and there is room for improvement in this department. Maybe his BMI is okay but the ratio of his Body Fat to Muscles is not up to the standards. HAZARD is going through a similar spell that Messi had gone through early last season where he had to stop loading on the carbs and he eventually lost what I believe was around 7 to 10lbs of body fat. This increased his speed by a notch; it could be a few milli or micro seconds which made him lethal again.
Hazard needs to undergo a fitness program that could improve on his stamina. Do more sprint exercises cause his dribbling is perfect but he needs to improve his initial burst when dribbling to carry him further for a couple of seconds more where he could smoke the opponents.
Hazard needs to improve his shooting skills. It's obvious that he uses strength in his shots yet he lacks the strength to guide them. He doesnt execute curvy balls like Willian for example. He has to choose what he does best and work on that; more curves / less strength vs less curvy balls with more power.
Every player has a different profile and has to work on reaching the peak of his top skills and improving on the other aspects of the game.
This is what the manager should be spending time on. Rather than only telling the players to foul an opponent or mark X or Y.
What is Mourinho doing in regards to all this? Probably nothing. He's subbing Matic and Hazard, playing Oscar then Ramires. He is pursuing Stone for the 10th time (is it really a coincidence that the defense is suffering ever since the Stones saga begun?)
The core should focus on improving the players by improving their skills and confidence. When the formula is working, you step down as a manager and watch and analyze and be critical constructively but let the players do the work and when they are not ticking then you step in and intervene with tactics and change of plans and tinkering with the formations.
This is what Mourinho is refusing to acknowledge. He doesnt like the fact that the game is not about him but about the 11 players he fields. If he acknowledges this simple stupid fact and calm down and stop acting like a special one when it is not time to act special then he will eventually reap the rewards of the success that his players achieve and become the special one again. It's a win-win situation where you stop focusing on the goal (becoming the special one) and focus on the process (let the team do the heavy lift and stop your fights with other leagues and managers and players) and the goal is yours anyway.
At this point, any decent manager will achieve better results with Chelsea than Mouriho because Chelsea is suffering from the lack of basic things. You cant drop from being the top of the league to the bottom except if there is something wrong with the core.
Obviously other teams have improved a lot this season, like I warned they would before the start of the season. Unfortunately, neither the fans over here nor Mourinho saw this coming until it became too transparent and by too transparent I mean too late.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Kick wrote:I think Simeone would be the logical choice, simply due to similarity with him and Jose.
If we wanted to get back to winning ways, have a manager long term and don't care about how we play, he'd be my choice all day long.
But if we wanted something different than Jose, obviously someone else should be chosen.
And just like that, The mirror are saying that Simeone is our back up option should we sack Jose.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Blid also reporting that Roman will pursue Pep if he doesn't extend with Bayern.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Hardly surprising, Roman has wanted Pep since 2010 or so.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Fabregas is a disaster.
Zouma is not ready. He is much worse than Iva
Zouma is not ready. He is much worse than Iva
huntsman- First Team
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
I really get the feeling we're going to go all out in Jan.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Kick wrote:I really get the feeling we're going to go all out in Jan.
So looking forward to January!
Soul- First Team
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
We suck hard, worried about this top 4 spot now especially since we are going into our cursed month of November
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Not as worried about November now as I have been in seasons past as I can't see any conceivable way we could possibly get any worse.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Thoughts on Jorge Sampaoli?
Can't we lure him away from Chilie? I would love to see Chelsea play like Chilie.
Can't we lure him away from Chilie? I would love to see Chelsea play like Chilie.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Guys, this season is over. No point worrying about top 4 since we won't get it.
The only question is, how much money will we lose by not being in the CL next season? Or can we win either the CL or EL to confirm our CL spot for next year?
beyond winning either, we won't be in the CL next season.
And by the sounds of it, we're going all out for Pep at season's end. I can't see us going for someone like Jorge Sampaoli when Pep is potentially available.
The only question is, how much money will we lose by not being in the CL next season? Or can we win either the CL or EL to confirm our CL spot for next year?
beyond winning either, we won't be in the CL next season.
And by the sounds of it, we're going all out for Pep at season's end. I can't see us going for someone like Jorge Sampaoli when Pep is potentially available.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Top 4 is still possibility though, Lecister and West Ham are not going to be there toward the end of the season. The usual suspect Liverpool and Spuds, are not that strong.
FFs though Mou needs to go, he is literally worst in situation like this, when there is a massive dark cloud over the team. Why does he keep pouring oil over the fire? Ejected from the game and consistently spouting blame on everyone else. Just shut up, and focus on football.
FFs though Mou needs to go, he is literally worst in situation like this, when there is a massive dark cloud over the team. Why does he keep pouring oil over the fire? Ejected from the game and consistently spouting blame on everyone else. Just shut up, and focus on football.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
It's not quite out of the question yet, guess we should panic come January if we are really far of the pace.
Let's see though, title is defo out of the question.
Let's see though, title is defo out of the question.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
Apart from what you think SHOULD happen, do you think Mourinho is close to getting fired?
Or was the backing he received recently fundamental, not just an ultimatum?
I ask because I have no clue how to judge the situation.
Or was the backing he received recently fundamental, not just an ultimatum?
I ask because I have no clue how to judge the situation.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
I've been going back and forth on that myself. On one hand, I look at the fact that he was just handed a 4-year contract over the summer (though I would stress that I'm not naive enough to think contracts in and of themselves mean anything in football), and that the sentiment, outlook and motivations that fueled the club's offering that to him (stability, long-termism, etc.) surely can't have been altered or negated by a few months of poor form, as well as the fact that there's really no one overtly better who could replace him, combined with the public backing the club gave him not too long ago (to my recollection unprecedented in the Abramovich era, especially when in such a poor and precarious footballing situation), makes me think he's got some time and wiggle-room.
On the other hand, if we were to crash out of the cup tomorrow to Stoke and lose to Liverpool on Saturday, it wouldn't shock me at all to see the ax wielded; and even looking at things longer term, as I pointed out a week or two ago in this same thread I believe, surely there will come a point — if our form doesn't pick up, if we stay off the pace or fall even farther behind Top 4 in the League, if our Champions League situation deteriorates even further (at this point even winning all 3 remaining games wouldn't guarantee finishing top now) — then the club assuredly will feel compelled and required to act.
Basically, the situation is just about as poor a one as he's gotten himself into in his entire career, and next to everything he's tried thus far to turn it around and dig himself and us out of the hole it's driven us into has failed. The mathematical clock is ticking, louder and louder by the week, and his relationship with the players surely can't help but being strained during/by such a despondent period either, and his antics (castigating Carneiro and Fearn for doing their jobs, perpetual attention-deflecting, excuse-manufacturing and blame-dodging, tired referee criticisms after every loss, FA charges and red cards, trying to get into the referees room at halftime, etc.) must make it doubly damaging for him with them. There's no question there's overwhelmingly more stacked against him than for him, but it goes without saying that only time will tell if the former column accrues one card too many and the whole deck collapses.
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On the other hand, if we were to crash out of the cup tomorrow to Stoke and lose to Liverpool on Saturday, it wouldn't shock me at all to see the ax wielded; and even looking at things longer term, as I pointed out a week or two ago in this same thread I believe, surely there will come a point — if our form doesn't pick up, if we stay off the pace or fall even farther behind Top 4 in the League, if our Champions League situation deteriorates even further (at this point even winning all 3 remaining games wouldn't guarantee finishing top now) — then the club assuredly will feel compelled and required to act.
Basically, the situation is just about as poor a one as he's gotten himself into in his entire career, and next to everything he's tried thus far to turn it around and dig himself and us out of the hole it's driven us into has failed. The mathematical clock is ticking, louder and louder by the week, and his relationship with the players surely can't help but being strained during/by such a despondent period either, and his antics (castigating Carneiro and Fearn for doing their jobs, perpetual attention-deflecting, excuse-manufacturing and blame-dodging, tired referee criticisms after every loss, FA charges and red cards, trying to get into the referees room at halftime, etc.) must make it doubly damaging for him with them. There's no question there's overwhelmingly more stacked against him than for him, but it goes without saying that only time will tell if the former column accrues one card too many and the whole deck collapses.
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Shed- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
It would be disappointing to see the club drop him. I feel the fact that this tenure was regarded as long-term in the beginning and I really was looking forward to see him do this. I feel for Mou and want to see him solve it, but just seeing crappy play game after game is very questioning. It doesn't seem right to axe him though, chelsea were always strong under him before this.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
I think the question is more and more becoming; if we do sack Mou, who will take his place both for the rest of the season and from next season onwards.
Just about any manager in the world is a downgrade from Mou, and when you've burned as many bridges as Chelsea have, there arent many options available to you.
I will float this here: In the book Pep Confidential (a really good read btw), Pep confides in the author that after Bayern he wants to coach in England next. Of course this was said in his first season at Bayern and his sentiment may have changed since then (especially if he doesn't win a CL there), but certainly is food for thought.
The impending media circus if Mou is replaced by Pep would be near unbearable though.
On the idea of Pep, how do you think he would go with our squad?
I imagine players like Cesc, Pedro, Matic (probably at CB ), Oscar, Hazard and (to an extent) Willian would suit the style of play he would want to play. But then players like Cahil and Costa really would be square pegs for round holes
Just about any manager in the world is a downgrade from Mou, and when you've burned as many bridges as Chelsea have, there arent many options available to you.
I will float this here: In the book Pep Confidential (a really good read btw), Pep confides in the author that after Bayern he wants to coach in England next. Of course this was said in his first season at Bayern and his sentiment may have changed since then (especially if he doesn't win a CL there), but certainly is food for thought.
The impending media circus if Mou is replaced by Pep would be near unbearable though.
On the idea of Pep, how do you think he would go with our squad?
I imagine players like Cesc, Pedro, Matic (probably at CB ), Oscar, Hazard and (to an extent) Willian would suit the style of play he would want to play. But then players like Cahil and Costa really would be square pegs for round holes
Last edited by fatman123 on Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
The emerging powers in the other campaigns (City, United, Arsenal, liverpool), you cant topple them with conventional methods. Attractive football will not cut it against those teams. All of them play attractive football.
But, everyone wants to try Pep, Abra is very tempted for sure. He wont rest until this happens. It's one of those things that you have to try at least once.
It's not only the fans, the owner, the media. Everyone
So go ahead, I say. Try him.
But in my opinion, and I have no doubt about it, the best solution to this predicament would be, to stick with Mourinho, and forget about the CL, the League and the Top 4 for now. This will pay dividends very soon.
But, everyone wants to try Pep, Abra is very tempted for sure. He wont rest until this happens. It's one of those things that you have to try at least once.
It's not only the fans, the owner, the media. Everyone
So go ahead, I say. Try him.
But in my opinion, and I have no doubt about it, the best solution to this predicament would be, to stick with Mourinho, and forget about the CL, the League and the Top 4 for now. This will pay dividends very soon.
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Re: Its Time to Discuss the Future of CFC
fatman123 wrote:I think the question is more and more becoming; if we do sack Mou, who will take his place both for the rest of the season and from next season onwards.
Just about any manager in the world is a downgrade from Mou, and when you've burned as many bridges as Chelsea have, there arent many options available to you.
I will float this here: In the book Pep Confidential (a really good read btw), Pep confides in the author that after Bayern he wants to coach in England next. Of course this was said in his first season at Bayern and his sentiment may have changed since then (especially if he doesn't win a CL there), but certainly is food for thought.
The impending media circus if Mou is replaced by Pep would be near unbearable though.
On the idea of Pep, how do you think he would go with our squad?
I imagine players like Cesc, Pedro, Matic (probably at CB ), Oscar, Hazard and (to an extent) Willian would suit the style of play he would want to play. But then players like Cahil and Costa really would be square pegs for round holes
Haha I honestly can't imagine the level of change that Pep's going to bring. But more importantly, if that's going to a positive one.
Ancelotti could come back possibly but don't forget how his last season was. It was an ageing squad but still, we played like crap.
I think the board will keep Mou until reinforcements arrive in January and if things don't improve, Steve Holland may take over as interim and lead us to CL victory and finish 16th in the League.
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